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Author Topic: Love for adepts?  (Read 15356 times)

Offline Michael

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Love for adepts?
« on: April 21, 2013, 06:51:55 AM »
Two of three things remaining unresolved from the previous discussion on Egypt:

What is love for an adept?

First, what is an adept? I'll postulate (feel free to disagree) that for this question, an adept is one who has succeeded in relocating 'self' from the 1st attention's body to the double. Meaning 'this life' is no longer his/her only field of self-expression. That's a big statement, but for the moment I'll just leave it there.

Thus, an adept looks upon his/her fellow humans, who are still trapped in their temporary vehicle, as passing phantoms. For two reasons: one, their identity belongs to their temporal construct; two, their 'self' will die on death, while the adept's self will survive death.

How can an adept love a non-adept?
How can an adept find love?
What does love mean to an adept?

Offline nemo

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 12:40:24 PM »
Three Questions


Ahh that's easy lol.

Give me a bit more Michael, what are you preposing to get out of these questions being answered. Are you wanting to size up my or others answers, and so on? Have you answers to these questions already?  
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 02:12:17 PM by nemo »
All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline Michael

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 05:47:35 PM »
No, I don't have pat answers, and I don't feel there are pat answers. I see these questions in some way plague any traveller of the Path, let alone an adept.

The main question, What is Love for an Adept? is something that has to be resolved through experience. I am open to how others see this. We have spoken elsewhere about love for a special person, and I accept this 'common' form of love remains for every person, on or off the Path.

A great solace for me, was the revelation in CCs books, of the expressed love of DJ and DG for the earth. That is not a simple statement, but I have returned to it again and again over my life, and I could explain in more detail why this is so.

The other two questions, regarding an adept's emotional relationships to others, remains a troublesome issue throughout life and after. It is filled with difficulties that are individual specific, which is why I asked how people here saw their response to it.

It is not a trick question. (Though I do love Monty Pythion  :))

Kal

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 07:55:40 AM »
This is my "piece"

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xtt5ziVU1ag/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xtt5ziVU1ag"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/xtt5ziVU1ag?rel=0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/xtt5ziVU1ag?rel=0</a>

~

Offline nemo

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2013, 01:10:35 PM »

Quote
First, what is an adept? I'll postulate (feel free to disagree) that for this question, an adept is one who has succeeded in relocating 'self' from the 1st attention's body to the double. Meaning 'this life' is no longer his/her only field of self-expression. That's a big statement, but for the moment I'll just leave it there.

Would like to expand on this quote, before I do the love thing.

In the CC books DJ mentions as part of the rule that the eagle commands us to forget ourselves...............Then we are required to remember ourselves, ..... and so on.

When you say self you are meaning the linear memory of the tonal life that in modern terms would be the ego self, mind matrix. Then an adept, would have an expanded reflection of what the self is, which includes among other things an enhanced relationship with intent.

The term double has a Toltec meaning re: dreaming body, for me the dreaming body does not have a human form, so meanings get a little messy. I suggest that, singularities can develop their attention enough to gather the understanding and will necessary to utilize intent in expanded ways.


All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline Michael

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2013, 06:26:25 AM »
I asked this question, because it is pertinent to me, as much as it is personally to many others I know who tread this path.

Amongst my 'friends', I am well known for saying I find it difficult to enjoy/appreciate children. Not because I have anything against children - quite the opposite. I have an instinctive attraction to children. It is because when I see a child, I also see the future for that child will smother the very aspects I instinctively love in them. I know the world destroys almost everything of beauty and freedom I am so attracted to in a child.

What I look for in another human, is how they emerge from their forties. It is only in the Saturnian battle of the forties that we see whether the soul of a person has survived or been irretrievably lost. Once a child reached puberty, you may as well wave them goodbye, and more so in these times than in my own. Then wait as if for a friend returning from another land, should they emerge about the age of 48, intact.

This is a truth, and it hasn't changed for me. But lately, possibly due to my own ageing, I have changed my view. It runs 'along side' my other view.

Another equally true view has emerged powerfully for me. As I age, I realize that no one actually evolves into something more real. Every being is as real as they will ever be, wherever they be, along the trajectory of their existence. There is no actual evolution of reality - we are as real in the identity of a child, as we are in that of the eighty-year old. We are as real in the ignorance of our pre-enlightenment self as we are in our enlightened self. We are as real as a common person as we are as an adept, as a phantom as a 'real' person. Sure there is a vast difference between all these states, but due to the inexorable tyranny of time - it being precious because it is limited - every moment along the timeline of any being has to be as real as any other moment. If we are not up to 'being' within that moment, that is our problem, not the moment's problem.

This change of view for me, has allowed me to fully appreciate children (in a parallel view with my other knowledge), in the same way I have watched women enjoy children. It always fascinated me to see how women approached children as a unique species of humans. With no consideration for the forming adult within them. I admired this, while I was constantly restrained by my awareness of the journey of the life that stood before me. In the same way my partner always jibs at my attempts to make her aware of the old saying - in bad times, don't forget there are good times, and more importantly, visa-versa. She hates me 'bringing down the vibe' in good times by trying to remind her 'this is not always how it is'. I realise we both have a fundamental truth in our view. Just that I have to hold two fundamental truths, while she  prefers to hold one at a time.

All this applies to an adept. I use the word adept here to describe one who has crossed the 'boundary of identity'. Meaning they have succeeded in transferring their identity to their double, who can survive death. I am not going to explain this here, and it only has meaning for those who are adepts.

When an adept loves, she has to love 'the moment', not 'the long case'. (I love this phrase 'long case', which I got from the Medical School for which I am doing IT work.) The person, or any creature for that matter, we extend our deepest affection towards, will not survive us. So what? Well, it does make a very big difference. Anyone watching Dr Who will recognise a recurring problem for him as he sequences through emotional attachments. In this post I only want to speak towards the way in which an adept experiences emotional affection for another non-adept being.

In a recent Dr Who I watched, his companion witnessed the consequences of having a time machine. He travels back and forward in time far beyond the limitations of any individual life (he also has a way of regenerating life, but that is just another extension of the same principle). She was struck by her temporarily in comparison with his vast access to time - how could she mean anything to such a person? He dodged the question ("experience makes liars of us all"), but the question still hangs there for every adept, and for all those on the path to adept. We are 'passing through' as the famous old song goes, and some of us are passing through in a different way to others.

Next I want to say something about 'love' itself, for an adept.

Offline Michael

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2013, 06:23:28 AM »
Love for an adept, differs significantly from that of an ordinary person.

Most beings have the capacity for affection and attraction, especially to another of their own species, and humans, adepts or not, share this. There is nothing inferior about love for another person, but we have to keep in mind that in almost all cases this love is an attribute of our own subconscious. We are complex beings, and Jung's depiction of an anima/animus is a very insightful tool - you don't have to accept his whole schema, but anyone who has evolved maturity in life will immediately realise that we project something from within ourselves onto another when we fall in love.

As far I am concerned, this is a precious experience. The feeling is precious, and the person who unwittingly becomes the recipient of our projected obsession is also precious - I mean precious to us, who feel the overwhelming attraction, and precious to they who have the privilege of reflecting this attraction. This is all chest-expanding stuff, and if it stayed there all would be reasonably well. Unfortunately it doesn't stay there. It sinks to the solar-plexus where the jealousies thrive, and madness enters.

Adepts are not immune from this process, as many Sufi stories will attest. But essentially, adept does presume one has been through such an experience, and its vice-hold is broken, such that reality can be perceived through the emotional explosions from the subconscious. We come naturally to realise that other people are just like us, unless we are an adept. In the main, all humans are so much the same it is frightening. Occasionally there are 'old souls' of whom it is appropriate to celebrate and appreciate their presence. My father was one such soul, although he knew nothing of these matters.

What distinguishes an adept, is that love becomes something entirely different from the whole sympathy-antipathy, attraction-repulsion paradigm. It is a layer behind those emotional protagonists. For an adept, love is a state of being. It is NOT emotional in the way personal love is. It is, rather, a feeling of acknowledgement, a perpetual realisation of just exactly what it is we exist within. You can't fudge or fake this, just because you've heard about it, like so many immature souls seek to do in life. It comes from a profound enlightenment of our situation, without that ever-present bugger of self-importance which always steals our real life from us.

For an adept, love is the background state of awareness, constantly behind whatever other turmoil is experienced. It is not a desire for another to love me, or for me to love another, or for me to love anything - it is not a verb, but a noun. It is the consequence of enlightenment, although I dislike that word as it has become an element of competition. Let's just say it is a perennial realisation.

Let me give an example, when an adept meditates, people think such a wise one is engaged in fabulous psychic experiences. That may be true, but in the main, it's balderdash. When an adept meditates, she is simply falling back into love.


Offline Michael

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2013, 04:49:26 AM »
For the pedants within us, I will add just a little technical explanation of what I have written above.

The primary problem with 'personal' love - love for another or another's love for ourself - is that it belongs to the identity of our temporary self. I have explained that an adept has shifted her identity to that of her double, from her temporary self.

Here is the quick explanation (and if you don't know what I'm talking about, you need the long explanation).

Everyone has a double. As a living being, our double is the 'other'. As the I Ching states, that which steps down a level, divides into two.

Now concentrate - dreaming is a glove. Turn the glove inside out - that is the dreaming self. Our daytime self is who we identify with - the world 'out there' is not 'me', it is the 'other'. In dream, our self is the double, and it is what in our daytime self we see as the other. We are a whole in both: outside-inside. But in the second attention, those things switch. In dream our self is our daytime's other, and the world we exist within is our daytime self. This is why we have been told to love others as ourself! For Christ sake, could it it be made more plain!

When we switch our identity across to our double, we switch our love - our love is everything out there not what's inside, but what's outside.

This is by no means the full story of the double, as an activated double is another thing altogether. But it doesn't change the basic structure of our existing being. The entire history of humanity has been built on a lie. Certain inorganic forces are dedicated to hiding this plain truth from us - what we live in, our world, is as much ourself as who we are within our own body. It has been said over and over by every tradition, but no one gets it. We still think we are doing things to 'someone else', that the consequences of our actions do not concern us. This realisation is all in the path of the double.

So to say love is a state, within which I exist, simply means I have transferred my identity to my double, and my love is my double's love - I am not me, I am 'that out there'. This is why DJ said when his time is up, he will join what is waiting for him out there, pointing to what surrounds him.

Could anything be any clearer? :)

Offline nemo

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 04:44:56 PM »
Michael for the most part, in these last three posts, there is a running theme that I am not in total agreement with. It is not that what you are saying is wrong, it's not as expanded as it can be.

Would you like me to point what I see out to you, with and explanation? 



All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline Michael

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2013, 05:51:36 AM »
You don't need my permission to write nemo. It's an open forum. Speak your mind.

Offline runningstream

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2013, 06:31:57 AM »
:) enjoying the thread thanks Michael . Wish i had something to add " maybe later " , would like to add it is very helpful perspective

Offline Michael

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2013, 07:34:39 AM »
The questions are for everyone running stream - just offer your insights as you feel them come to you.

Offline Michael

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 07:35:25 AM »
In spite of what I said about ‘love in the moment’, nonetheless, the fact an adept is orientated to survival, while everyone surrounding her is disinterested in that subject, does make a difference. You can love a pet animal or bird, knowing full well their time is far less than your own. But somehow that is not the same when it comes to people. It is not that they will die before you, it’s that the orientation of their soul is temporary. We don’t expect anything more of a pet, although I did try my best with one special dog I had, and I think I may have succeeded, though I can’t be sure just yet.

I explained something quite real about love, in my first post responding to the questions. Where we accept the moment as sufficient. Except it doesn’t deny the equal reality of a vast chasm between one who has dedicated her life to the penetration of awareness beyond death, and others who have no interest in that whatsoever.

In order to become an adept, one has to build an unbroken, unbending, constant and ever-present struggle towards firstly unravelling the secrets, and secondly sustaining and deepening the knowledge revealed in those secrets. This is no easy road. In fact I can’t think of a more difficult road, because it is an internal struggle. Many have extremely difficult external struggles, but it is a very rare person who choses to take on a path of inner struggle. In the early stages of my path, I was bewildered as to why people couldn’t see such a path was the only quest worthy of life. As I grew older, I became accustomed, though never really understanding, to the choice of almost all humans to allow their spirit to slowly die.

I did understand the attraction to giving in, especially when I live in a world which doesn’t value the path of inner aspiration - this has not always been the case in the history of humanity. And yet, by the time I lost my romanticism of spirit, I simply couldn’t give up. Something within me would never allow me to just sit back and watch TV - time now is always precious, and insufficient. My yearning strangely grew in step with another side of me that felt more and more satisfied and accepting. I speak of this only to give some insight to the huge consequences of choosing a path of knowledge of the tree of life, so that you can see how difficult it is to engage in loving relationships with others who have very little interest in such a path.

To be honest, an adept rarely spends much time with those who have no inner awareness of spirit - it is in the nature of the double, about which I explained a little above, that we will always mix with beings of like spirit in some form or other. But who we associate with, tend to be those with an unconscious or naive level of spirit. They intuitively have this sense of being old souls, or seekers, yet never grasping the nettle with all hands and feet. Unfortunately being of a natural inclination, is insufficient.

The adept is faced with loving others with whom she is never able to share the most overwhelmingly powerful force within her being. This is unavoidably difficult. The path of an adept is almost always a hidden path. It is possible to join with others of like-mind, and many traditions have set up such communities throughout the ages. Although such communities do provide a lot of nourishment, nonetheless, it can never relieve an adept from being on a solitary path.

There is a fundamental reason for this. While it is essential to learn from others in the early stages of the path, ultimately it leads us to a profoundly singular experience with infinity. This is because in our core, we are one. There is only one point of awareness for all beings, and everything extending out from that point is awareness-of. Community is precious, yet ultimately an illusion. At the final threshold, we are always alone with that vastness. All the work is in preparation to withstand that moment of final realisation, and survive.

Love for another can never fulfil what it pretends to offer. I know many will fight against such a conclusion, and I have no interest in convincing anyone. You are all welcome to your own view about such personal matters - I wish you well. But I must speak my experience, and my experience is one of quintessential wilderness.

It doesn’t end there however, because an adept is a strange being, with resources beyond the average person. A adept has the capacity to build a vast aura, within which others can shelter. But that is another matter, for another day.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 12:05:12 AM by Michael »

Offline Michael

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2013, 07:58:08 AM »
I'm at a critical point in this thread of ideas, so I'd feel remiss to not speak of the last element.
To be honest, I had no intention of talking about all this when I asked the first questions. I only knew my double was fired up about it, and what has followed is as much a surprise to me as anyone.

The last point is absolutely significant to an adept, or anyone for that matter. But especially for an adept, because such a person has foregone most of the standard protective measures all species devote themselves to for the sake of survival. In order to pursue the path of knowledge, a person needs to leave the main road, and take risks with the future. Eventually we, who tread such a path, reach a threshold past we can't return. We face the same physical and psychological challenges as all beings through life, but without the standard backup of finances and social resources carefully stored away in conventional forms.

What I have described above is the underlying knowledge we use to create a unique from of security, of sanctuary.

Just like with conventional forms of security, there are no absolute assurances, no absence of the unexpected. But in essence, by building gradually a relationship with our double, we are actually building a relationship with the world which comes to us. This is our covenant.

This relationship is built on so many things - there is not the space to ever fully explain the array of practices, risks and experiences we launch into to evolve an active double. But one thing is paramount: love. Remember, the world that surrounds us, and by which I especially mean the interpretation we continuously generate towards objects and events, is our double. When we love the world, we are loving our double.

If also we have applied the elements of magical energy to this world of ours, and we have succeeded in revealing an active double, then we have a powerful friend - in fact, lover - working with us for our survival and benefit.

Unfortunately, that doesn't spell safety or comfort. This is part of the bargain. Our relationship is one of knowledge - spirit knowledge - and freedom. To gain those goals, we have to adopt a special relationship with everything that comes our way. For the average person, events do not necessarily hold knowledge, but for an adept, there is an unbroken covenant that everything which happens to her is a doorway to knowledge. That is love for an adept.

One who practices and understands this love, is by definition, an adept.

Kal

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Re: Love for adepts?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2013, 12:35:35 PM »
I liked the idea that when a man ...or a woman has no one to turn to ,

can 'turn' to the Earth... - love - ..The mother -

______All is good [

Relaxing and letting go of all fear is good as well.

song, I remembered
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3FRpiHb1jk
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 12:50:46 PM by Nikosv »