Topic: Discipline and Freedom?

[Definitive Journey]

I was reading a couple discussions here, and what popped into my mind was a thought of Freedom vs Discipline.

I supposed we'd have to define these two terms, first.  But...

Even without formal definitions, as I'm sure most everyone's definitions will be different, we still have a general idea of what these two terms mean.

Seems there's several thought processes here.

Choo got the Freedom thinkers...."Don't do anything that impinges on my Freedoms!"  (Whatever that means.) 

Choo got the Discipline thinkers..."You must do it this way, that way, structured."  (Whatever that means.) 

I suppose I can only speak for myself. 

As my Life and perceptions have changed, so have my views on this.  As I was raised in a conservative environment I was more the discipline style.  Many years in the Army solidified this as well.  A great deal of structure, discipline and concentration galore. 

As I've spent a good deal of time in the civilian world nowadays, I see the Freedom thinkers and those with a bit more open-mindedness if you will.  As my base was formed in a bit more disciplined view, I viewed others (and judge them) in the light of many lacking any discipline.  "Those Freedom lovers, good god!  What do they think they're freeing??  From what??  They are just lacking in discipline and are lazy, not wanting to really Do any work."  I've also judged the discipline fanatics.  "Wow, what a small world they live in.  What they do, they do it well, but they don't have any vision!  Why can't they see the big picture?" 

I've come to look a bit deeper inside myself and it's interesting how I view this.  What I've seen is that these two terms are not opposed to each other.  I've found that with a good amount of detachment and freedom I've managed to view my world quite differently.  I've also found that discipline is needed to keep my concentration to bring anything to completion.

Language is yet another matter in conveying our thoughts yet that's not what I'm looking for.

Maybe I'm missing the point, as I'm writing this on the fly, but I'm sure the general meaning of what I'm getting at is coming through. 

How do YOU view these terms?  What's YOUR take on this?  What do YOU do?

Thoughts?

Zammy





 

[Endless Whisper]

Different strokes for different folks, dunno who said that but its true.

I think things work as a blending though. Discipline - we have to have some structure, exercise what we have, to make ourselves stronger, and better. There is work, nobody likes to work. Some people can probably get away with being lazy, have a trust fund to expire, never work. But if they run out of that trust fund oneday, then wake up, find they're really old, have no skills whatsoever, here comes the repo man taking their vehicle. Here comes the bank foreclosing on their home. Here they are out on the street, not knowing how to 'work,' cause they laid on their ass all their life, being taken care of by funds which eventually were going to run out. Impermanent funds. Wells run dry, people run out of others to lean on. Lean On Me is a fine song, but what you going to do when there's no one around. We have to work to survive. In spirituality we have to work, too. You have to work for your freedom. You're not 'born free' at all. You're not going to 'die free' either without learning, discipline, work.

At the same time, there's got to be times where we go beyond the work, and figure out what its all for. Okay, ive been in the studio in front of the mirror, facing my reflection, ive also been on the stage and entertained and inspired. Now, its just time for me to figure out what all that exercise has been for. Now, time to find the spirit of the whole entire thing, the dance. Ive worked enough for it.

I found this quote from this man with a really long name, Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, and he said,

“Through the esoteric forms of dance, you become acquainted with the movements of the currents of the physical body, the emotional body and the body of the soul. The meditating dancer, inspired by music, finds the inner currents moving first, and lastly the physical body. This releases his awareness into inner, superconscious realms of the mind in a smooth, rapid and systematic way.”

In truth, all dances are esoteric. Even the street dancing, is esoteric. You do the discipline, the exercises, the work, so eventually, it just becomes a second nature.

But no one gets skilled by sitting on their ass. They just get fat, and heavy, and cant take flight either. They're not free. They're just imagining they are. And that doesnt count.

[mayflow]

I found this quote from this man with a really long name, Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, and he said,

“Through the esoteric forms of dance, you become acquainted with the movements of the currents of the physical body, the emotional body and the body of the soul. The meditating dancer, inspired by music, finds the inner currents moving first, and lastly the physical body. This releases his awareness into inner, superconscious realms of the mind in a smooth, rapid and systematic way.”

In truth, all dances are esoteric. Even the street dancing, is esoteric. You do the discipline, the exercises, the work, so eventually, it just becomes a second nature.

Hey, that's Gurudeva. I like some of his stuff, but not all. Too much discipline!



 I am not a fan of overstructure, where controlled chaos will often work better and wu wei will do the job by a natural coincidence which really isn't coincidence but the natural structure of Universal power. Soon, I will rule the Universe without even trying, and Ambrosiatic Goddesses will
fulfill my ev'ry desire.

I used to like his stuff about dancing with Siva, which makes me break into song:

Dancing with Siva!
Dancing with Siva!
We shall come rejoicing
bringing in the Siva!
Er'ybody now!

[mayflow]

Lesson 331 from Merging with Siva
How the One Becomes Many

The Self is timeless, causeless and formless. Therefore, being That, it has no relation whatsoever to time, space and form. Form is in a constant state of creation, preservation and destruction within space, thus creating consciousness called time, and has no relationship to timelessness, causelessness or formlessness. The individual soul, when mature, can make the leap from the consciousness of space-time-causation into the timeless, causeless, formless Self. This is the ultimate maturing of the soul on this planet.

Form in its cycle of creation, preservation and destruction is always in one form or another, a manifest state or a gaseous state, but is only seeming to one who has realized the Self. Siva in His manifest state is all form, in all form and permeating through all form, and hence all creation, preservation and destruction of form is Siva. This is the dance, the movement of form. No form is permanent. Siva in His unmanifest form is timeless, causeless, spaceless--hence called the Self God. Hence, Siva has always existed, was never created, as both His manifest and unmanifest states have always existed. This is the divine dance and the mystery revealed to those who have realized the Self.

The soul merged out of Siva as the Self in His timeless, causeless, spaceless, unmanifest state and from Siva as the Creator, Preserver and Destroyer in His manifest state of all form. The core of the merger between these two states, or the apex, causes a cell which breaks loose another cell, thus spawning souls. Each time the Being of Siva goes from His manifest to His unmanifest state, it spawns a soul.

Where the Shakti unites with the unmanifest and Siva unites with the manifest, this natural process, which continues even into the sahasrara of man, is the core from whence creation comes.

Each God has a vehicle through which he is represented--Ganesha the mouse, Muruga the peacock, and Siva rides in man. The origin of man--being spawned from Siva, the birthless, deathless God--therefore, is as a pure, taintless soul. After thus being spawned, the soul goes through a maturing process. This slow growth is in three basic categories: karma exercises, anava clouds, maya distorts. This classroom of these experiences finally matures an intelligence free enough from the bondage of the classroom of anava, karma and maya to realize its own Divinity and at-one-ment with Siva as a taintless, pure soul. This, then, is the foundation, after once attained, for final liberation, Self Realization, to be sought for.

[Endless Whisper]

I dont know a whole lot about the man, but I like his eyes. You can tell a lot about people per their eyes. Tons. Loads. Thats kinda why to myself, its a huge disadvantage on the net, we can't make eye contact:



http://www.himalayanacademy.com/satgurus/gurudeva/

For the record, Gurudeva is a title, not the man's official name. Thats like the Lennon song, Across the Universe: "Jai guru deva om." Guru = teacher. dev or deva = heavenly or divine, or god. Like the devas. Makes the teacher likened to God.

I think though, per Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, his path would require a lot of discipline, or anyone who follows it.

[Endless Whisper]

Quoting Satguru (thanks for quote Mayflow)

This classroom of these experiences finally matures an intelligence free enough from the bondage of the classroom of anava, karma and maya to realize its own Divinity and at-one-ment with Siva as a taintless, pure soul. This, then, is the foundation, after once attained, for final liberation, Self Realization, to be sought for.

Now, that appears to be the bottom line, doesn't it? Taintless, and Pure. I mean really. It doesnt matter, what path you look at, etc, the message is reflected the same. One moon, many rivers, streams, wells, the moon is captured - with the same message.

Impeccability even, for Toltecs. Impeccability.

Course somewhere in the mix, there does seem to be an alternative, grace, or even, just getting lucky. The Cat Who Went to Heaven. Little spotted cat made it, finally, but prior to that, Buddha kept all cats out of heaven because they were too independent. Poor little, dirty kitties