Topic: Look out! There's a snail in the path

[Endless Whisper]

From Tales of Power. I thought it was interesting timing. Someone on my myspace list had posted this from ToP

"Don Juan had already put me face to face with the dilemma that I could not help my fellow beings in any way. In fact, to his understanding, every effort to help on our part was an arbitrary act guided by our own self-interest alone.

One day when I was with him in the city, I picked up a snail that was in the middle of the sidewalk and tucked it safely under some vines. I was sure that if I had left it in the middle of the sidewalk, people would sooner or later have stepped on it. I thought that by moving it to a safe place I had saved it.

Don Juan pointed out that my assumption was a careless one because I had not taken into consideration two important possibilities. One was that the snail might have been escaping a sure death by poison under the leaves of the vine, and the other possibility was that the snail had enough personal power to cross the sidewalk. By interfering I had not saved the snail but only made it lose whatever it had so painfully gained.

I wanted, of course, to put the snail back where I had found it, but he did not let me. He said that it was the snail’s fate that an idiot crossed its path and made it lose its momentum. If I left it where I had put it, it might be able again to gather enough power to go wherever it was going.

I thought I had understood his point. Obviously I had only given him a shallow agreement. The hardest thing for me was to let others be."

[Endless Whisper]

This is one of those comments by DJ which I can't agree with in all cases. However, I do understand what he is saying; but its not always appropriate to let things simply be. Yet in this case it was a good call and I liked the lesson in awareness.

One of the main things is DJ was more aware of the surroundings than Carlos. Carlos had the right intent, as he'd been getting more in tune with the environment. He saw the snail was in the path, and was judging the snail on it having a lack of personal power by its slowness, and its smallness. We, too, can do this, by mistake we may think we're the highest on the evolutionary scale, that we have dominion. So naturally we assume that little creatures, because of their size, cannot keep up. In a snail's world though, he may be the fastest of the snails, he may not even care about speed, it may be irrelevant.

But DJ was aware the vine was poisonous. And through Carlos's judgment and lack of knowledge, though with good intentions, he became careless. Now, was it because he was thinking more for himself than the snail? Or he became anxious because he saw an opportunity for a deed of merit for himself, that he, took it upon himself to try to save the snail?

DJ observed the snail had done his own work, and gain, and Carlos had interfered with that. This seemed to be the prime lesson in the dialog with. Interfering, actually took the snail's progress of his own work, away.

However, does this undermine helping others? One of the things I do, and its come naturally more and more, is become conscious of creatures, even the small, I couldnt ever get myself in the position where I'd become mindless enough to not really care. I see animals ran over in the road, and I think of DJ and what he said. If people tried to be more mindful, paid attention to where they were going, some deaths could be avoided. But sure not all deaths can be avoided. We've all killed something, insect or animal if by mistake.

I remember once driving when I had the big suburban, real late at night. Had picked up the kids (who were babies then) from grandmas, was coming home, and on a dark road, hit a dog. I tried to stop but I couldnt. And I wouldve stopped and helped the dog, but the thought crossed mind. This is Glendale, not the best side of town, its 1am, I have two kids in the car. Not wise to stop. I stop, something bad happens to kids, Ive jeopardized them over hitting a dog on accident. I did stop in the road and look back, but then decided to keep going. It was a tough call, but I wasnt going to take chances with my own, esp if I didnt have a gun with or something to defend them and myself. Plus, what would I do, put a wounded dog in the back and try to get it to a hospital, and it freak out and maul them? Those thoughts crossed and I kept going. Course, my son cried when he found out I hit a dog, which I had to explain was an accident.

I remember back then, too, a couple weeks later, found myself having to put one of my cats to sleep, Id had her for nine years, and she was my favorite cat I ever had. I remember wondering, am I losing my pet cause I killed someone elses? Granted, she had the kidney infection prior to it, which was determined, but she really got bad toward the end and it became more prevalent. But the thought did cross "I killed Fido, even if by accident, is that why I have to put Dee Dee to sleep, cause some kids are crying over their pet being mowed down?" But additionally, for all I know he got up, walked home and lived. Ill never know.

Just odd things I think about.

My opinion whatever DJ says, I do agree with what he was saying about interfering, or always knowing what is 'best' for a creature. However, I do not believe, that because he said this, we should 'never' interfere or aid creatures, or people. But we do need to be careful and aware when doing it, if we do. We dont want to make a bigger mess of things, than they could be. Additionally, as personal power is extremely important, if not to the spider or the stag or the human being, aiding anyone or anything, should not be in replacement of another's personal power. This can actually enable, any creature, to not know how to take care of itself. No Bodhisattva can 'make a buddha' out of anyone. Only an individual can do that for themselves and (see quote below) "save themselves." Ultimately, we've got to be the one to save ourselves, whatever 'saving' may mean to us.

[daphne]

"Don Juan had already put me face to face with the dilemma that I could not help my fellow beings in any way. In fact, to his understanding, every effort to help on our part was an arbitrary act guided by our own self-interest alone.

One day when I was with him in the city, I picked up a snail that was in the middle of the sidewalk and tucked it safely under some vines. I was sure that if I had left it in the middle of the sidewalk, people would sooner or later have stepped on it. I thought that by moving it to a safe place I had saved it.

Don Juan pointed out that my assumption was a careless one because I had not taken into consideration two important possibilities. One was that the snail might have been escaping a sure death by poison under the leaves of the vine, and the other possibility was that the snail had enough personal power to cross the sidewalk. By interfering I had not saved the snail but only made it lose whatever it had so painfully gained.

I wanted, of course, to put the snail back where I had found it, but he did not let me. He said that it was the snail’s fate that an idiot crossed its path and made it lose its momentum. If I left it where I had put it, it might be able again to gather enough power to go wherever it was going.

I thought I had understood his point. Obviously I had only given him a shallow agreement. The hardest thing for me was to let others be."

Interesting quote. DJ didn't say whether CC was 'right' or 'wrong' in relocating the snail.. he only made reference to his "assumption".
I think that's really at the base of interference or non-interference - assumptions. Because then CC went to try to move the snail again, assuming that what DJ had said was right and what he had done was wrong. Perhaps it's really all about just being aware and making a decision? So often I find assumptions can see-saw me back and forth instead of just going on and doing what needs to be done.

[Endless Whisper]

Well he did indicate his assumption was 'careless,' not necessarily wrong, but a careless move.

However, we could even go further with the issue - what if, CC had been determined to do his own little move of the snail, and DJ had interfered with that? LOL cause he did tell CC to not put the snail back on the path it had been on.

Course, he did say it was too late to move him back, which is true, that the interference with the personal power had been the main issue, through Carlos's carelessness.

But it is an interesting thought. Cause they'd even met at the bus station, and DJ, is his own decision to have introduced Carlos to the plants, the nagual, the whole world of toltec, could that have been seen as interference, or is it somehow different?

[Nichi]

It's tricky knowing when or if the time is right to help another - be it a nonhuman or human creature.

There's a place near the Botanical Gardens in this area, where a road runs and cuts one of our lakes in two. The road gets a lot of traffic, and on a daily basis, a turtle decides to cross it. Many is the time I have stopped my car and taken the turtle all the way across, rather than to watch in my rear-view mirror the turtle getting smushed by oncoming cars.

Perhaps I've been wrong to do so, and perhaps there would be today a lot fewer turtles. But at some point, I acknowledge that I too am Nature, not apart from it - and for better or worse, I am fulfilling my nature. The turtle is oblivious to the danger caused by the humans ... there's a point past which we can't afford to be oblivious.

Just my pov.

(There's nothing which renews my hope more in human nature, though, than to see traffic in both directions stopped during rush hour, the lead cars in each direction waiting faithfully for a slow, slow turtle to get safely across. The same for duck families, too!)     

[Kal]

"Don Juan had already put me face to face with the dilemma that I could not help my fellow beings in any way. In fact, to his understanding, every effort to help on our part was an arbitrary act guided by our own self-interest alone.

One day when I was with him in the city, I picked up a snail that was in the middle of the sidewalk and tucked it safely under some vines. I was sure that if I had left it in the middle of the sidewalk, people would sooner or later have stepped on it. I thought that by moving it to a safe place I had saved it.

Don Juan pointed out that my assumption was a careless one because I had not taken into consideration two important possibilities. One was that the snail might have been escaping a sure death by poison under the leaves of the vine, and the other possibility was that the snail had enough personal power to cross the sidewalk. By interfering I had not saved the snail but only made it lose whatever it had so painfully gained.

I wanted, of course, to put the snail back where I had found it, but he did not let me. He said that it was the snail’s fate that an idiot crossed its path and made it lose its momentum. If I left it where I had put it, it might be able again to gather enough power to go wherever it was going.

I thought I had understood his point. Obviously I had only given him a shallow agreement. The hardest thing for me was to let others be."

I 'm finding my core to be just like that.

In that agreement.

Then there is the other core (the spiritual - ...) which is pure simplicity.(however simplicity can be pure or not)

Cheers

Nick

[Michael]

You mean if you stay where you are you might get poisoned, but you don't know if you have the power to cross the road?

[Kal]

You mean if you stay where you are you might get poisoned, but you don't know if you have the power to cross the road?

It can be.

[Kal]

It is possible that don Juan presented Carlos with an abstract core.

I have not gone too far with the knowledge of abstract cores, but with my little information and if one connection I make is valid it can be the abstract core of 'intent'.

Flow/fluidity + choice of the new instead of the old.

Of course it could be another abstract core,

and my information invalid. 

Don Juan was 'plenty' after all.

[Michael]

It is possible that don Juan presented Carlos with an abstract core.

Nice thought.