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Offline Definitive Journey

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Path of Enlightenment
« on: September 30, 2008, 06:13:16 PM »


There is no path to enlightenment.
It lies in all directions at all times.
On the journey to enlightenment,
you create
and destroy
your own path
with every step
.”


Jed McKenna

"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

Offline Michael

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2008, 08:27:43 PM »
Good traditions, like Tibetan Buddhism, have a more sophisticated understanding.

Quote
There is no path to enlightenment.

This is both true and not true.

Not to perceive the paradox in this, I consider to be one of Krishnamurti's mistakes.

Tibetan Buddhism explains this best. There are two practices, which differ in name and exercises, but which it is well recognised are only two sides of the same coin.

On the one hand - it is all here right now all around us and always has been.
On the other hand you have to struggle along a path to arrive at that realisation.

It goes like this:

First, despite it all being there, here and now, people do not know that, and so it is a truth and a realisation that is not available to them. Thus it is plain arrogance and stupidity for these people to wander about claiming a realisation they don't possess.

Second, sane people begin the 'path to enlightenment' which has been laid down by many much wiser than us.

Third, after following the path to enlightenment sufficiently, they have a realisation - samadi. This realisation demonstrates to them in no uncertain terms that enlightenment has been theirs all along. That in fact the path was meaningless. They always existed in enlightenment, and it was only a trick of the eyes-mind which blocked that realisation.

Thus the paradox - we have to walk a long road to discover we didn't need to go anywhere.

However, in my view, that is not the end of the story - enlightenment is only the realisation of reality. There is further to go than that.

I should point out that the 'path to enlightenment' is not what I call the Path. The Path is the Walk of the Enlightened, not the road to it. But still, the road to it has to be a part of the Path. This involves a thousand year old debate in Hinduism, about whether the 'world' is not just delusion, but in fact contains within it a secret passageway, such that the 'world' can be utilised in a clever way to pass out of the delusion.

Where do I stand? I say, when you have experienced samadi, you can do and say what you please, but until then, follow the road laid out, which means: choose struggle over good and bad luck.

You know the saying that most people live within good or bad luck, but you can drop all that, by choosing a life of struggle, and discovering it is the most fabulous of joys. Life is like a muscle, it need to be exercised to be enjoyed.

If you have discovered the joy of developing a skill through to a very high degree of expertise, you won't need to be told these things.

You will know the difference between the joy of reaching the top of a mountain, and the joy of eating ice-cream. And you will also know all that striving and effort never really went anywhere - it was a pleasure unto itself!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 08:58:18 AM by Michael »

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2008, 09:10:20 AM »
~

Good stuff, Michael.

I'll come back to this, as well. 

I suppose being extremely busy is good job security...

z

"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2008, 12:12:40 PM »


First, despite it all being there, here and now, people do no know that...

Quick question if I may....Was this line supposed to read, "First, despite it all being there, here and now, people do NOT know that..."?

I read this as people do NOT know, but as I went to reply, I noticed this is not what was said.

Thanks!

z

"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

Offline Michael

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2008, 09:02:44 AM »
I meant not, but no is fine also

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2008, 11:50:37 AM »
~

Michael, great post, yet I’d like to add a few comments if I may…

Ah, ‘The Path’ and ‘The Work.’

Seems there’s always much discussion concerning these two.  Seems the discussions on these topics always gets bogged down in semantics; ‘Walking The Path or Being the Path,’ ‘What Is the Work and How is it accomplished,’ etc., etc.

What occurred to me many years ago, but was hammered home by Tolle’s work, was this:  When one is Present, in the Here and Now without Internal Dialogue, I AM the Path.  The Work is also thus engaged, regardless of what The Work entails.  It seems it’s the job of the thinking mind to change this scenario from Being the Path to Walking the Path.  Similar to The Work.  The thinking mind loves to speculate on what The Work is, How the Work is to be accomplished, etc., etc.

At times we are just Present, and post to one another on discussion groups.  At other times we borrow the Present Moment of the Past to relate to what we are discussing, Here and Now.  That’s fine as well.  What seems to occur though, and when we really get our ‘tit in the ringer’ as we say, is when the thinking mind pulls us too much to the past or future and we get tangled in semantics. 


On the one hand - it is all here right now all around us and always has been.
On the other hand you have to struggle along a path to arrive at that realisation.


I would agree with this, but in my own personal experience as well as what I’ve viewed from most I converse with, your first point is almost always either left out completely or touched on very briefly.  Your second point is always the bone of contention.  I’ll even go so far as to say that within your own post, Michael, you’ve done this.  A brief mention of the first point, then several lines concerning the Path, etc., etc.  If you’ve managed to accomplish sufficiently this first point, yes!   

To truly understand the first point you addressed, you have to be Present.  Only at that point (AP position, etc., etc.,) can one Know that ‘it’s all here right now all around us and always has been.’  Without this ability to be Present, one’s ‘struggle along a path’ is an intellectual exercise; it’s the thinking path not Being the Path. 

For me, this is what Tolle emphasizes in his works.  It’s not surprising in that he’s dismissed by many; hey, it’s a shot to the intellect!  Some are very intellectual, and heaven forbid one put that aside or move beyond it.  This, or its touched on briefly, a bit of a realization, some conceptual thinking of what he mentions, then disregarded.  Hey, no-one wants to do this!  Being Present is hard work!  It’s much more enjoyable to lolly-gag around in our thoughts.   

This is the point I’m getting at, especially when I mention that there’s a difference between walking the path and being the path.  I suppose I haven’t been clear as to my own thoughts on this (to others).  When one is Present, one is ‘Being the Path.’  When one starts to think about it, not correct thinking but the thinking most of us do, the situation changes to ‘Walking the Path.’

Unless this first point you mention is addressed, and practiced to a sufficient level, the rest of what you mention concerning The Path just falls on deaf ears.  It becomes an intellectual exercise. 

z

« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 02:56:42 PM by Quantum of Solace »
"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

Offline daphne

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2008, 05:47:19 PM »
What occurs to me is that the only ones who get "bogged down in semantics" are the ones who constantly talk about semantics!  For me its quite simple.. whether I walk the path or am the path.. same thing really..  admittedly though it does provide for much discussion!  :)

Without any internal dialogue we are no-thing, no path and no walking to question (my opinion of course! - and not necessarily bad. We are however 'here' experientially.. for what? Happy vegetables!
Mind you.. I recently had a walk in a rain forest... vegetation survival there was amazingly violent! Had never seen a 'strangler fig' before.. wonder what it's internal dialogue was all about! "Feed me"!!  :D

Perhaps the work is the path? The work of becoming 'conscious'? perhaps 'conscious' is really what is meant by 'enlightened'?

Zam... ever wondered whether you were perhaps an intellectual in disguise?  :)  or am I perhaps projecting here.. yet again    ::)

Personally, I find Tolle too much in the 'feel good' category of 'self-help'.. good psychology there, and it has it's place in the manner of things, though I don't know about it being 'spiritual', but then.. I have a different semantic of self-help and spiritual.  and I also like 'thinking' about it!   ;)

Offline daphne

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2008, 05:47:58 PM »
I dig the smilies!!   

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2008, 06:33:20 PM »
~

Hi Daph!

Great comments, will get back to you on this with a bit more depth tomorrow.  Ang and I are preparing for a fire ceremony that shall last into the night; drumming, rattles, dancing, the works!  Celebrate we will!

Zam

P.S.  Oh, you are quite correct, I'm a hopeless intellectualizer!  I'm learning, understanding and experiencing more and more though!



"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2008, 05:09:54 PM »
~

What occurs to me is that the only ones who get "bogged down in semantics" are the ones who constantly talk about semantics! 

Join the club then!  (Since you felt the need to comment on this dirty little “S” word!)  Hmm….well, it seems many who discuss anything, (Shamanism discussions, Spirituality, Aikido, etc., etc.,) are going to 'get into' semantics. 

For me its quite simple.. whether I walk the path or am the path.. same thing really..  admittedly though it does provide for much discussion!  :)

Right on.  I beg to differ, but maybe it's just semantics, eh?   ::)

Without any internal dialogue we are no-thing, no path and no walking to question (my opinion of course! - and not necessarily bad. We are however 'here' experientially.. for what? Happy vegetables!

I’m unsure about this.  I was following a link the other day, and arrived at a site that was speaking of some bush peoples who resided in south Africa.  It spoke of the fact that they had no concept of ‘time,’ and to me, time and the ID are intimately related.  They seem to be getting along right fine. 

Mind you.. I recently had a walk in a rain forest... vegetation survival there was amazingly violent! Had never seen a 'strangler fig' before.. wonder what it's internal dialogue was all about! "Feed me"!!  :D

I suppose that's is better than, "Eat me, eat me!"  I'll, um, well, just leave that alone....


Perhaps the work is the path? The work of becoming 'conscious'? perhaps 'conscious' is really what is meant by 'enlightened'?

Perhaps!  Nah, not perhaps.  It's all just semantics!   :P

Zam... ever wondered whether you were perhaps an intellectual in disguise?  :)  or am I perhaps projecting here.. yet again    ::)

Gracious sakes Daph!  Are you projecting yet again?  That's ok.  Just don't project 'yet another way,' that's frowned upon.  Is being an intellectual as asset or a liability?  Both?  Ugh....the Semantics, the Semantics!

Personally, I find Tolle too much in the 'feel good' category of 'self-help'.. good psychology there, and it has it's place in the manner of things, though I don't know about it being 'spiritual', but then.. I have a different semantic of self-help and spiritual.  and I also like 'thinking' about it!   ;)

"Feel good?"  Like Dr. Feelgood?  Hehehehehe.......I've always loved that phrase; "S/he's just a bit to 'feel good' for my taste." 

What's your difference between self help and spiritual?  Curious Dr. Feelgoods want to know!

But then again, it could just be Semantics!   ;)

z

"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2008, 08:36:09 PM »

Personally, I find Tolle too much in the 'feel good' category of 'self-help'.. good psychology there, and it has it's place in the manner of things, though I don't know about it being 'spiritual', but then.. I have a different semantic of self-help and spiritual.  and I also like 'thinking' about it!   ;)


Daph, which of Tolle's works have you read?
"There is a point at which everything becomes simple and there is no longer any question of choice, because all you have staked will be lost if you look back. Life's point of no return."
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Offline daphne

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2008, 10:04:23 PM »
Daph, which of Tolle's works have you read?

Hi Ang!  The Power of Now. Was first when I heard of him (if I recall right). I have not read A New Earth other than bits and pieces here and there. I also enjoy reading interviews of the authors (and also listening - utube: the modern mecca!!  :D ) Sometimes quite a bit more of the author comes through in those. Here is an interesting one with Tolle. Enjoy!   :)

http://www.wie.org/j18/tolle.asp?page=1

I also enjoyed reading Conversations with God (Neale Donald Walsh) the first book. After that the others he wrote seemed rather the same. With this one, I both read and listened to it on tape too. I found that an interesting expereince - visual versus auditory. I found that parts I 'heard' I had missed 'seeing', and vice-versa.
The Celstine Prophecy was another, great the first time, though rather lacking in ithose that came after. Thats just me, Ang.
Another good author I enjoyed in the same genre is Deepak Chapra.

In a way, it is good that there are many different authors, since very often the style of a particular book is also what draws one to read it. For eg.. I really can't stand Gary Zuckov's 'style' of writing - lol - thank god for diversity eh!?!   :P

Offline daphne

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2008, 10:34:05 PM »
~

Join the club then!  (Since you felt the need to comment on this dirty little “S” word!)  Hmm….well, it seems many who discuss anything, (Shamanism discussions, Spirituality, Aikido, etc., etc.,) are going to 'get into' semantics. 
Not  always, Zam. Sometimes its not semantics. Depends really on whether one 'uses' semantics to make a point, or whether there is a discernable difference in meaning.   :)
Quote
Right on.  I beg to differ, but maybe it's just semantics, eh?   ::)
No, not just semantics. To some there is a difference, to others there isn't. The point is what is it personally to the one talking? In this example, for me there was no difference. For you there is. So that gives us something we have learned about each other.
Quote
I’m unsure about this.  I was following a link the other day, and arrived at a site that was speaking of some bush peoples who resided in south Africa.  It spoke of the fact that they had no concept of ‘time,’ and to me, time and the ID are intimately related.  They seem to be getting along right fine. 
If it was about the Kalahari Bushman, they do have a concept of time; its just that it is different to our western concept of time. At its most 'basic', 'time' is a sense of movement. They have that, in the seasons that come and go, and the people that birth and die.
For me, the ID is more than just the thoughts we are aware of fleeting through our minds. I sometimes think we have taken the concept of ID as a hindrance too literal. Without some sort of ID, the bushman would not survive.

Would you expand on "time and the ID are intimately related"?
Quote
I suppose that's is better than, "Eat me, eat me!"  I'll, um, well, just leave that alone....
Yes   ;)

Quote
Perhaps!  Nah, not perhaps.  It's all just semantics!   :P
Maybe, maybe not.
Quote
Gracious sakes Daph!  Are you projecting yet again?  That's ok.  Just don't project 'yet another way,' that's frowned upon.  Is being an intellectual as asset or a liability?  Both?  Ugh....the Semantics, the Semantics!
Don't tire yourself with all that semantics, zam!
If we take some spiritual masters as example.. its all projection anyway!  lol
Quote
"Feel good?"  Like Dr. Feelgood?  Hehehehehe.......I've always loved that phrase; "S/he's just a bit to 'feel good' for my taste." 

What's your difference between self help and spiritual?  Curious Dr. Feelgoods want to know!

The operative word in my post on this was "personally". For me the self-help feel good is something that would reinforce the positive feelings of 'goodness'. It is to do with our psychological health and well being and interactions with others and our environment. Often we find ourselves in agreement with what is said and it brings understanding and helps put in perspective, "relationship".

Spiritual is what effects a change, something that I can point at within myself and actually experience the change within myself. It may not necessarily be what is spiritual to another. Thats why 'judgment' is truly a waste of energy and time.

To give you an example.. years ago I read a book called Earth: The Only Planet of Choice. Was a channelled book.. can't remember by whom. Anyways.. while reading this book, there were places that I felt anything but "feel good" in it. I persevered (instead of throwing the book away) and through that, with what we  call doing The Work  (  ;) ) Something was 'changed' within me. That which had previously bothered me (to put it mildly), no longer did. Genuinely no longer did. For me, that reading was spiritual - ie, it effected a 'change' in me.
Quote
But then again, it could just be Semantics!   ;)

z


[/quote]
Nope, to me not "just" semantics. Was actually transformational.  :)

Offline Definitive Journey

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2008, 08:44:56 AM »
~

Great discussion Daph!  Thank you, again!

Any points that I addressed previously, I'm sure, were lost in the flux of my drippy sarcasm.

I'll take another wack at it later on, as you make some great points and asked of me a few questions. 

I've now got to skip off to work, humming Pink Floyds song, "Comfortably Numb."   :D

z



"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

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Re: Path of Enlightenment
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2008, 08:46:28 AM »
Thanks Daph! :)


... I also enjoy reading interviews of the authors (and also listening - utube: the modern mecca!!  :D ) Sometimes quite a bit more of the author comes through in those.

I enjoy those, as well ... have you checked out Oprah's Souls Series ... there are a couple of goodies on that:

http://www.oprah.com/article/spirit/inspiration/pkgoprahssoulserieswebcast/20080512_oaf_oss_archive

In a way, it is good that there are many different authors, since very often the style of a particular book is also what draws one to read it. For eg.. I really can't stand Gary Zuckov's 'style' of writing - lol - thank god for diversity eh!?!   :P

Yes ... there are a few that I try to read and can't get through the first 10 pages ... heh!  But, yes ... diversity is a great thing!  I'm just beginning Star Woman, by Lynn Andrews.  Have you ever read any of her books?
"There is a point at which everything becomes simple and there is no longer any question of choice, because all you have staked will be lost if you look back. Life's point of no return."
- Dag Hammarskjold