Topic: *Egypt

[nemo]

Michael said:

"You speak of changing the AP of the earth, I presume for beneficial reasons and purposes. I say one should not tamper with the spiritual direction of another until one has emancipated oneself from left-brain constructs that were inculcated into us by our parents and culture. One of those is the 'room', and another is the belief that a 'room' exists outside of our left-brain perception, which has been tamed to believe that the room exists in reality."


This is your belief, Michael, do not assume you can "see" me. If you like I will not offer anything further, and if you believe I am doing harm to others feel free to delete my posts.


DJ Fire From Within:

"„By all ordinary measures, you were indeed losing your mind,” he said, „but in the seers’ view, if you had lost it, you wouldn’t have lost much. The mind, for a seer, is nothing but the selfreflection of the inventory of man. If you lose that selfreflection, but don’t lose your underpinnings, you actually live an infinitely stronger life than if you had kept it.”
He remarked that my flaw was my emotional reaction, which prevented me from realizing that the oddity of my sensorial experiences was determined by the depth to which my assemblage point had moved into man’s band of emanations."

(nemo) Room which is a term used by the tonal to describe emanations of the eagle, There is no world of objects there are only the eagles emanations in my view. The belief you have that they end at death is not my view, and my description is not that of the first attention.

Florinda The Eagles Gift:

Florinda explained that when she or her peers talked about time, they were not referring to something which is measured by the movement of a clock. Time is the essence of attention. The Eagle's emanations are made out of time, and properly, when one enters into any aspect of the other self, one is becoming acquainted with time.

Wheel of Time:

Warriors say that we think there is a world of objects out there only because of our awareness. But what's really out there are the Eagle's emanations, fluid, forever in motion, and yet unchanged, eternal.

(nemo) I knew before I started offering my view, that it was not in agreement with what you had stated Michael. I am also very cognizant of the fact that beliefs are an important aspect to everyone's experiential reality. I post these excerpts from CC's books to point out that what they say are in alignment with my presentations. There is not one fixed past as there is no fixed future. There are colours that exist as part of the eagles emanations that are not part of the AP of this particular point in time on earth, but earth outside of this time, has colours not available now. In my view 
a

[Michael]

No need to take your bat and ball home Nemo. I am giving a view of principle, not specific to you. You are correct, I cannot see you, at least not yet anyway, which is why I find this interaction fascinating. So continue your exposition, and Nik and I'll respond with our automatic associations to expand the field of interest.

I haven't anything to say about your last squeals in your exposition, as I don't see anything to disagree or agree with in words - it seems a reasonable proposition, in the way you describe. By which I mean you paint a reasonable picture of how things are setup. I would be interested where you take this construct next.

[Kal]

The concept of time fascinated me: in relevance with the emanations.

I 'd like your view too if you 'd like Michael about time although nemo's view was so to speak a definition very light and good-will-lively (low vacabularity capacity)

P.S. Something irrelevant perhaps:

I have come accross myself through the concept that the Eagle's emanations are made out of time, and it came to me one memory of an elephant, which may not be an actual memory but certainly popped up like that now - like a memory.  

Sunday the 24th here now.

[Kal]

All I know (not all for sure) is that these filaments are incomprehensible and mercyless sometimes..!

But time is a wild concept that comes with wild ideas. (a term used by modern teachers of the -in a good sense and sequel- new age)

I certainly enjoy our path here - ....

[nemo]

Well from a fixed construct, to a description of fluid construct. Time for a musical interlude.


http://youtu.be/PD-MdiUm1_Y

[Kal]

I call this one 'the spirit of service'


It's not really a work of art that I would put into a gallery

Here 's a poem I think a friend wrote

The Tannhauser Gate (Electric Hellfire Club)

There comes a time for each of us
To make one last desperate stab at life
To search for truth among the broken dreams
But it's never found or so it seems to me
Can we break free?

Oh body electric of thee I sing
In my life I've done many things
Out of anger and frustration
Errors made in desperation
My past follows me but I'll soon be free

Is it too late to reach the Tannhser Gate?
Is there still time to cross the Siegfried Line?

Oh there's no point in living
When life's too short to live
And I'll be gone before you realize
Just how much I really have to live

Oh I've tried, Lord knows I've tried
And I found that there was nothing to find

Tell me is it too late to reach the Tannhser Gate?
Tell me is there still time to cross the Siegfried Line?

Just one more time

When people build walls instead of bridges
Their fortresses soon become their prisons
Each day I hope and pray
all these memories will be washed away
All this sadness
All this pain
Lost in time like tears in rain

Like tears in rain...

Tell me it's not too late to reach the Tannhser Gate
Tell me that there's still time to cross the Siegfried Line
Tell me that you'll wait for me at Tannhser Gate
Tell me that you'll be mine at the Siegfried Line
Tell me there's still time enough for us to try
Just one more time
Tell me it's not too late to reach the Tannhser Gate
Tell me it's not too late to reach the Tannhser Gate
Tell me there's still time enough for us to try
Just one more time
Tell me that you'll be mine
Just one more time

_______________________________________________________

Nick-

[Lex Silentio]

Nemo just sent me a link to this thread, thought I might like it. I do! So even though I am late to this thread, allow me to weigh in.

Quote from: Michael on March 21, 2013, 04:52:45 AM
Is it the flag moving, or the wind?
I presume you know the answer to this old Zen story. The master's response : it is mind moving.

Yes, mind is moving, in this context. But why is mind moving and not the wind or the flag? What has led to this insight?

There is only one room. There are three minds, and in each of those minds is a separate 'room'. But then there is also a separate mind-room in the rat that lives under the floor, in flea in the wall, in the people who built the room. All these mind-rooms are only partial reflections of the actual room which exists outside the minds of all who have any contact with the real room. Michael

The idea that there is an ACTUAL room that exists or that there is a REAL room inside outside of mind or anywhere is antithetical to interdependent origination. Michael I love that you are bringing in these Buddhist insights, which I think are very pertinent, I can see that you have given this some serious consideration. How do you reconcile the actual existence of a room, of which, our minds are only giving us “partial reflections”? It is as if you are saying the room is outside of our minds is “more real” than the partial reflections. This seems contradictory to your next statement below, where first you say “No” the room cannot exist outside the mind but you do qualify that statement saying the room is just a concept.

Now the question is asked: can the room exist outside the mind? No - the very concept of 'room' is a mind concept. But that doesn't mean that there is nothing outside the mind, only that the mind has no capacity of comprehending what it doesn't know. There is definitely something there, but what it is we can't say. What we can say is that it exists while it exists, and it can shelter us from the weather and temperature. No doubt it is much more than that, but we living organisms are trapped in functionality. Michael

Now this seems to be striking closer to the heart of the matter. This is even more difficult to approach. You say, “There is definitely something there, but what it is we can't say.” In order to be clear we need to understand what we mean when we say “something is there” and what we mean by “real or actual”.  For myself after digesting Buddhist concepts concerning emptiness (only one half of the equation) I was still left with “so what am I looking at?” It is not just nothing or nothingness. “What am I looking” at is a very healthy mantra worthy of being carried for at least a couple of years. Now Michael after raising such an important question you seem to go a wandering, when you say, “What we can say is, that it exists while it exists...” I am just trying to be helpful here not critical in the hope that you would take this further without getting mired again in notions that rely upon uncritical ideas of existence. Buddhism has clearly dealt with the issue of existence. But ultimately is does not take refuge in the idea that nothing exists. That which you approaching with your question cannot be clarified in terms of existence and non-existence, is or is-not etc.
 
Dj brings this up with Carlos when talking about the first truth of awareness. But in my opinion doesn’t take it far enough. And he leaves us with the idea that the world of objects are “really” luminous filaments. (A statement which approaches the other half of the equation.) If we are uncritical regarding this statement of DJ’s we will believe that the perceptible would of luminous filaments are actually real, that they exist in a more permanent form that the forms we conjure to represent them. (This is due to DJ’s philosophical lack concerning emptiness).  This biased preference for the energetic as more real is a dead end and leads to all kinds entrapment. The bias comes from a break through though and carries a lot of weight. To penetrate the world of objects and form and perceive an energetic counterpart is quite something but if we mistakenly take these energetic perceptions to be more real in some way that the world of objects, what have we gained but an “expanded” and more complex view which is just as delusive. Theosophy is a good modern example of this. They perceive energetically and have massive inventories that just burden the observer, so adept are they at this. Their third eye so completely open on all levels of clairvoyancy and multidimensionallity. (I digress).  

Thus there is an earth, outside the minds of all it's denizens. But we can't call it 'earth' except that we need some verbal reference if we wish to discuss it. The same problem exists with 'god'. As soon as you say 'god' to anyone, you are talking about completely different mind-gods. Michael

You say there is an earth outside the minds of all it’s denizens. What leads you to such a conclusion?
I know what you are getting at though. I think of a person when they go to sleep, before dreaming sets in or clear light sleep, that person is not conscious, concepts have ceased and yet another person can still see the sleeper, he is still “there”. So at that moment the sleeper has no concept of having or being a body yet it is still available to the perceptions of another. So even though conceptions have ceased for the sleeper the conceptual world in which he moved lingers in the conceptual world of others (perhaps mutual agreement), unless you think that body is real. Whew this yogacara stuff can really bend your mind.

But the whole Buddhist mind-is-everything approach can be abused. It is designed to lead one to reality, not to protect you against the murdering hoards who came over the hill and killed the Toltecs and many Buddhists, before they developed the concept of relative-reality. The same applies to Global Warming. Removing the idea of Global Warming from your mind may assist you in reaching moksha, but it won't stop the environment you live in killing you. This is why DJ spoke of co-existing in two worlds at the same time - running above the cactus with one AP and dodging them with the other. Michael

Mind only Buddhism, Yogacara and Two truths doctrine will only go so far.

But again what is the nature of the room you speak of outside the mind?

Michael can you be clearer in how you present these two truths regarding the room?


So yes the first answer would be functional and what I call first attention surface skimming, and the answer is one room, regardless how many are in it.
Then Michael you say that room does not exist separate from the mind, which was not the question i asked, but I can work with it. In my view the existence of the mind and the room are independent from one another, and remember this is just my view, I am not saying you are not correct, just different from my view. Nemo

Great stuff guys!!

In response to this, Nemo has to fragment. In his view he says the mind and the room are independent of each other. Buddhism would say they are completely interdependent.  Hmmm so we are back to if a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound?

So the complete answer to the question in my view, Is one functional shed and earth, three energetic sheds and earths experiential to those three cowboys. and thirdly an infinite number of sheds on an infinite number of earths. Nemo

We then can conjure up a view, that has depth, the earths assemblage point position is like the movie holding all potentials, in static positions and our intent can move around in those potentialities, unique to our personal energetic potentials. Nemo

Then Michael you say that room does not exist separate from the mind, which was not the question i asked Nemo

Well it was the question you asked, although you may not have thought so. You asked: how many rooms there were? I am saying the 'mind' is essential to the existence of any such thing we know of as a 'room'. Thus in actual final and ultimate reality, due to the impermanence of the mind, no rooms exist. This is why the Chinese used to say, "First, there is two." Michael

Outside the mind of a perceiver of the 'shed', which knows the functional word 'room', no such thing exists. The perceiver arranges the energetic substances before it into what we know of as a 'room': the day a room became a 'room'. I say this for a very important reason.
Let me be clear about this: when you die, the earth dies, the world dies, everything you know about the universe and god dies. 'No-thing' is left in existence. Michael

Michael are you referring to the conceptual world that are the things of the conceptions when you say this? If so then what we “know conceptually” is very impermanent and tenuous.  So what does remain after this conceptual view of reality is lost? I am speaking about the world left behind after the death of an individual and the loss of all he knows.  Nemo is making the case that the eagles emanations are permanent, eternal and they outlast.

Nemo do you consider the eagles emanations eternal and if so why?


DJ Fire From Within: Nemo

"By all ordinary measures, you were indeed losing your mind,” he said, „but in the seers’ view, if you had lost it, you wouldn’t have lost much. The mind, for a seer, is nothing but the selfreflection of the inventory of man. If you lose that selfreflection, but don’t lose your underpinnings, you actually live an infinitely stronger life than if you had kept it.”
He remarked that my flaw was my emotional reaction, which prevented me from realizing that the oddity of my sensorial experiences was determined by the depth to which my assemblage point had moved into man’s band of emanations."

(nemo) Room which is a term used by the tonal to describe emanations of the eagle, There is no world of objects there are only the eagles emanations in my view. The belief you have that they end at death is not my view, and my description is not that of the first attention.

These are the parts of the thread that caught my interest

[Michael]

So what does remain after this conceptual view of reality is lost? I am speaking about the world left behind after the death of an individual and the loss of all he knows.

Hello Lex, welcome to Restless Soma

Dear me, so many questions.
But I hear this one come through thematically in your post. It is a good question, and I don't answer it in any of my posts above.

I am not a Buddhist, but I do study any tradition which takes a serious look at the nature of our reality, as in the end, I aspire for the ultimate possible for a living being.
Perhaps you should read the following thread, if we are to engage with matters independently arising:
Buddhism: View, Path, Result

[Michael]

Nice picture Nik.
And interesting poem - I did see Blade Runner, but I think I was already past the target age of influence for such a film. Generational icons have to hit at the right time in our 'short' passage. I do have a sense of sadness for the plight of all youth who seek freedom, which is why I wrote my book - it is targeted to an age at which one can still change direction. After thirty, all directions are sealed in, and the rest is academic.

I call this one 'the spirit of service'


It's not really a work of art that I would put into a gallery

Here 's a poem I think a friend wrote

The Tannhauser Gate (Electric Hellfire Club)

There comes a time for each of us
To make one last desperate stab at life
To search for truth among the broken dreams
But it's never found or so it seems to me
Can we break free?

Oh body electric of thee I sing
In my life I've done many things
Out of anger and frustration
Errors made in desperation
My past follows me but I'll soon be free

Is it too late to reach the Tannhser Gate?
Is there still time to cross the Siegfried Line?

Oh there's no point in living
When life's too short to live
And I'll be gone before you realize
Just how much I really have to live

Oh I've tried, Lord knows I've tried
And I found that there was nothing to find

Tell me is it too late to reach the Tannhser Gate?
Tell me is there still time to cross the Siegfried Line?

Just one more time

When people build walls instead of bridges
Their fortresses soon become their prisons
Each day I hope and pray
all these memories will be washed away
All this sadness
All this pain
Lost in time like tears in rain

Like tears in rain...

Tell me it's not too late to reach the Tannhser Gate
Tell me that there's still time to cross the Siegfried Line
Tell me that you'll wait for me at Tannhser Gate
Tell me that you'll be mine at the Siegfried Line
Tell me there's still time enough for us to try
Just one more time
Tell me it's not too late to reach the Tannhser Gate
Tell me it's not too late to reach the Tannhser Gate
Tell me there's still time enough for us to try
Just one more time
Tell me that you'll be mine
Just one more time

_______________________________________________________

Nick-

[Michael]

Well from a fixed construct, to a description of fluid construct. Time for a musical interlude.


http://youtu.be/PD-MdiUm1_Y

It's curious to see older musicians clinging to the unkempt look. They do seem to be enjoying themselves. Unfortunately Kashmir brings me only reflections of sadness, that such a beautiful place, which I experienced before the 'troubles', I can never take my partner to without great danger - I know too much about what is happening there. Some friends of mine blithely travelled there a few years ago, in complete ignorance of suffering and danger of the place. They had a wonderful time except for the old rip-off events that can happen all over Asia: ignorance can be bliss, when you can't feel the land.

Much appreciate the affective interludes from you and Nik.

[Kal]

Got one more, rather different

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ImvMxXY64EU/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ImvMxXY64EU"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ImvMxXY64EU?rel=0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ImvMxXY64EU?rel=0</a>

_

[nemo]

Thx for the example of your artwork Nick, I too dabble in that medium, and Michael yes Kashmir, a have a vision of it whole and wonderful to visit in the future. We have all been subjected to lack and interference, on this planet, and when first attention beings fight over resources out of the basic need for survival the result is unpleasant for everyone, and the land they happen to trample upon.

Nemo do you consider the eagles emanations eternal and if so why?

Hi Lex, Your post has much in it that i will not address straight away, because they will make me go down some roads that will be counterproductive to the flow at this moment.

This one though i can, and it is one that I have mentioned to you before. You are an aspect of the eagle, the eagle's emanations are made out of time, and your life is a furrow of time within the reflective furrows of the eagle's emanations. Everything exists in stasis eternally before and after an assemblage point happens to energize, and move past and through them. Another way to say this is that every point in time is an assemblage point position, with a central core, "you" and reflections relevant to the the you, you believe yourself to be.

These dots ............................... existed before I typed them, and even when this form of communication is obsolete sometime in the future and these dots are not available, they will exist in the past as an assemblage point position. The idea that something comes into being and then fades away into none existence after its time is looking at reality through the eyes of the first attention, which in my view has a very incomplete grasp of the totality of the self. The key to grasping this view is that points in time, "assemblage point positions" do not come into being at the time the AP is lite up and then fade away, they are there ready to be lite up at the precise time you happen by, and remain after you have moved past.

What is funny to me is that in my view it is the mind that is actually the inhibitor to this expanded view, and once the view is grasped the mind is in a bit of a pickle.  

[Michael]

This one though i can, and it is one that I have mentioned to you before. You are an aspect of the eagle, the eagle's emanations are made out of time, and your life is a furrow of time within the reflective furrows of the eagle's emanations. Everything exists in stasis eternally before and after an assemblage point happens to energize, and move past and through them. Another way to say this is that every point in time is an assemblage point position, with a central core, "you" and reflections relevant to the the you, you believe yourself to be.

These dots ............................... existed before I typed them, and even when this form of communication is obsolete sometime in the future and these dots are not available, they will exist in the past as an assemblage point position. The idea that something comes into being and then fades away into none existence after its time is looking at reality through the eyes of the first attention, which in my view has a very incomplete grasp of the totality of the self. The key to grasping this view is that points in time, "assemblage point positions" do not come into being at the time the AP is lite up and then fade away, they are there ready to be lite up at the precise time you happen by, and remain after you have moved past.

I can follow your logic there. Can't say I necessarily agree, but I do see what you are arguing, and it is a reasonable proposition.

[Michael]

Got one more, rather different

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ImvMxXY64EU?rel=0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ImvMxXY64EU?rel=0</a>

Has a strong raw feeling - good find Nik.

[Michael]

Nemo, I did suggest this 'static' is not essential to your main argument, which I'm still interested to hear: about how you intend to shift the world AP.

However, seeing as you have outlined your static theory, here is my disagreement with it, just for the record.
I think you are not taking into account what AP means. "Assemblage Point": meaning it is a process of assemblage, not a static arrangement. We provide it with a sense of solidity, but in fact we are continuously assembling. This process breaks down as our mental faculty deteriorates, or we are influenced by stress, substances or lying.

Thus it's not a case of us passing through an endless set of possible APs, but rather we continuously arrange perception as we pass through an endless flux of energy, which we skim, flesh and shape with our inventory of 'known' elements. Thus we don't just assemble, we also clothe. We don't see 'known' objects, we apply our known to the essentially unknown infinitude, just like applying a style in html.

So really we never 'shift' APs, we just re-assemble differently. We call it a shift, but that is just our known self trying to keep pace with the game. This then would have implications on how to affect APs of others as well as ourselves. It's more about adding elements in than pushing something sideways. The idea of pushing sideways has power because we use that image as a tool for our will, in which case it has some practical power, but that doesn't mean it's what is really happening.