Soma
Resources => Stories, Writings and Other Snippets [Public] => Topic started by: Nichi on April 29, 2011, 12:08:28 PM
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"All societies are evil, sorrowful, inequitable; and so they will always be. So if you really want to help this world, what you will have to teach is how to live in it. And that no one can do who has not himself learned how to live in it in the joyful sorrow and sorrowful joy of the knowledge of life as it is."
Joseph Campbell
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"The poet and the mystic regard the imagery of a revelation as a fiction through which an insight into the depths of being—one’s own being and being generally — is conveyed anagogically. Sectarian theologians, on the other hand, hold hard to the literal readings of their narratives, and these hold traditions apart. The lives of three incarnations, Jesus, Kṛṣṇa, and Śākyamuni, will not be the same, yet as symbols pointing not to themselves, or to each other, but to the life beholding them, they are equivalent. To quote the monk Thomas Merton again: 'One cannot apprehend a symbol unless one is able to awaken, in one’s own being, the spiritual resonances which respond to the symbol not only as sign but as ‘sacrament’ and ‘presence.’ The symbol is an object pointing to a subject. We are summoned to a deeper spiritual awareness, far beyond the level of subject and object.'
"Mythologies, in other words, mythologies and religions, are great poems and, when recognized as such, point infallibly through things and events to the ubiquity of a 'presence' or 'eternity' that is whole and entire in each. In this function all mythologies, all great poetries, and all mystic traditions are in accord; and where any such inspiriting vision remains effective in a civilization, everything and every creature within its range is alive. The first condition, therefore, that any mythology must fulfill if it is to render life to modern lives is that of cleansing the doors of perception to the wonder, at once terrible and fascinating, of ourselves and of the universe of which we are the ears and eyes and the mind. Whereas theologians, reading their revelations counterclockwise, so to say, point to references in the past (in Merton’s words: 'to another point on the circumference') and Utopians offer revelations only promissory of some desired future, mythologies, having sprung from the psyche, point back to the psyche ('the center'): and anyone seriously turning within will, in fact, rediscover their references in himself."
— Joseph Campbell, "Myths To Live By"
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“Apocalypse does not point to a fiery Armageddon but to the fact that our ignorance and our complacency are coming to an end… The exclusivism of there being only one way in which we can be saved, the idea that there is a single religious group that is in sole possession of the truth—that is the world as we know it that must pass away. What is the kingdom? It lies in our realization of the ubiquity of the divine presence in our neighbors, in our enemies, in all of us.”
― Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor
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"To grasp the full value of the mythological figures that have come down to us, we must understand that they are not only symptoms of the unconscious (as indeed are all human thoughts and acts) but also controlled and intended statements of certain spiritual principles, which have remained as constant throughout the course of human history as the form and nervous structure of the human physique itself.
"Briefly formulated, the universal doctrine teaches that all the visible structures of the world - all things and all beings - are the effects of a ubiquitous power out of which they rise, which supports and fills them during the period of their manifestation, and back into which they must ultimately dissolve. This is the power known to science as energy, to the Melanesians as mana, to the Sioux Indians as wakonda, to the Hindus as shakti, and the Christians as the power of God. Its manifestation in the psyche is termed, by the psychoanalysts, libido. And its manifestation in the cosmos is the structure and flux of the universe itself."
Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Part II - "The Cosmogonic Cycle"; Chapter 1 - "Emanations"; Section 1 - "From Psychology to Metaphysics"
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"To grasp the full value of the mythological figures that have come down to us, we must understand that they are not only symptoms of the unconscious (as indeed are all human thoughts and acts) but also controlled and intended statements of certain spiritual principles, which have remained as constant throughout the course of human history as the form and nervous structure of the human physique itself.
The average man of today is completely deprived from the myth. And that goes along for most of the spiritual people too.
The myth is a tale and very few would believe that the myth is still useful - to live and use. As an energy from history and beyond, today and in the future.
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The average man of today is completely deprived from the myth. And that goes along for most of the spiritual people too.
The myth is a tale and very few would believe that the myth is still useful - to live and use. As an energy from history and beyond, today and in the future.
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Agree 100%!
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"The wonder is that the characteristic efficacy to touch and inspire deep creative centers dwells in the smallest nursery fairy tale—as the flavor of the ocean is contained in a droplet or the whole mystery of life within the egg of a flea. For the symbols of mythology are not manufactured; they cannot be ordered, invented, or permanently suppressed. They are spontaneous productions of the psyche, and each bears within it, undamaged, the germ power of its source."
- Joseph Campbell, "The Hero with a Thousand Faces"
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"We are in the old age of our culture. It's in a dissolving, disintegrating period ...
"There is an awful saying of Spengler that I ran into in a book of his, 'Jahre der Entscheidung' ('Years of Decision'), which are the years we live in now. He said, 'As for America, it's a congeries of dollar trappers, no past, no future.' When I read that back in the thirties, I took it as an insult. But what is anybody interested in? ... It's a terrible lack of anything but economic concerns that we're facing, and that is old age and death, and that is the end. That's as I see it. I have nothing but negative judgments in respect to that."
Joseph Campbell, interviewed by Lorraine Kisly, in "Living Myths: A Conversation with Joseph Campbell, Parabola, Issue 1 (Spring 1976), pp. 70-81
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That would apply to all cultures now, except Bhutan and a few others like that.
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Buddha can die in different ways - with different outcomes.
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"Furthermore, we have not even to risk the adventure alone; for the heroes of all time have gone before us; the labyrinth is thoroughly known; we have only to follow the thread of the hero-path. And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence; where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world."
Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, p. 18 (3rd edition)
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"All of the traditions that came out of India - Jainism, Hinduism, and Buddhism - center on the idea of reincarnation. This is just as fundamental to Indian mythological thinking as our idea of Judgment, Heaven, and Hell is to our tradition. The notion is that the soul - what I will call the reincarnating monad - puts on bodies and takes them off, over and over again, as a person puts on and removes clothing.
"What is the function of the body? The function of the body is to put your "jiva," your deathless soul, into the realm of temporal experience. The body is meant to stimulate the soul with challenges, and then, once the "jiva" has assimilated the possibilities inherent in the experiences of this lifetime, the body is flung away and another body is taken on ...
"Now the individual soul may resist these experiences, in which case it fails to benefit from this lifetime. In this case, the soul is thrown right back like an undersize fish until the soul has learned the lesson. The ultimate goal for the soul is to reach the point where it does not need to put on a body anymore. It is released, to be not anybody, anything - to become one with the light.
"What is it that brings the soul back, putting on bodies like a shopper at Macy's trying on scarves? It is desire and fear. You have a desire for life; you have a fear of death. When you absolutely quench desire and fear, those things by which all of us live, then there is no life. That is the ultimate aim of all the yogas. Of course you can go through all kinds of exercises and think you have gotten rid of fear and desire, but the very fact you are trying to get rid of them is a desire. That is the funny twist that every monk runs up against: the harder you try not to want, the more you're wanting not to want, and so you are in a double bind. The illumination comes when you are least ready ... This moment of illumination comes when you're not quite watching for it; often, when you are striving you are actually blocking it.
"Jiva," the Sanskrit word for this reincarnating entity, is related to the Latin "viva." This is the living force that keeps putting bodies on. Now, on a higher level, since all beings are manifestations of that ultimate being, "jiva-atman," all "jivas" are manifestations of the "atman," and if you will realize that this is "nirvana," you will lose that will to get loose and you will be loose while alive. That business of being in balance while moving in the world is key to this. Now, this is a balance; one reason that athletics and things like music performance and dance performance are so helpful as disciplines is that to do these things well you have to both be doing them and not doing them; there has to be a kind of relaxation and turning the activity over to the body, to the performing power, so that your consciousness rides along with it. That is very much like the saintly attitude. The still point rests in the middle and the activity swirls round about, and you are both the nirvanic point and the activity. The point where the Buddha sat is called the immovable point, but it is the world just as the hub is part of the wheel, and that's because of the nondual realization we get on the other side."
Joseph Campbell, Myths of Light, pp. 44-46
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"Now the individual soul may resist these experiences, in which case it fails to benefit from this lifetime. In this case, the soul is thrown right back like an undersize fish until the soul has learned the lesson."
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“There were formerly horizons within which people lived and thought and mythologized. There are now no more horizons. And with the dissolution of horizons we have experienced and are experiencing collisions, terrific collisions, not only of peoples but also of their mythologies. It is as when dividing panels are withdrawn from between chambers of very hot and very cold airs: there is a rush of these forces together. And so we are right now in an extremely perilous age of thunder, lightning, and hurricanes all around. I think it is improper to become hysterical about it, projecting hatred and blame. It is an inevitable, altogether natural thing that when energies that have never met before come into collision—each bearing its own pride—there should be turbulence. That is just what we are experiencing; and we are riding it: riding it to a new age, a new birth, a totally new condition of mankind—to which no one anywhere alive today can say that he has the key, the answer, the prophecy, to its dawn. Nor is there anyone to condemn here, (”judge not, that you may not be judged!”) What is occurring is completely natural, as are its pains, confusions, and mistakes.”
Excerpt From: Campbell, Joseph. “Myths to Live By.” Joseph Campbell Foundation, 2011-03-11. iBooks.
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(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfPhD9MAv_nsmwdL2xBl4k9guQn4VR8Rd2rRcbj0VslQiKE5bQ)
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(http://www.motivationalquotesabout.com/images/quotes/the-black-moment-is-the-moment-when-the-joseph-campbell.jpg)
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(http://www.motivationalquotesabout.com/images/quotes/the-black-moment-is-the-moment-when-the-joseph-campbell.jpg)
I do find these very hard to read when rasterized. But in this case, for how many who have died did the darkest moment mean suffering unto death? I suppose that is transformation, of a kind ... so long as we accept that.
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I do find these very hard to read when rasterized. But in this case, for how many who have died did the darkest moment mean suffering unto death? I suppose that is transformation, of a kind ... so long as we accept that.
It means per death eventually we all get some relief.
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"The unconscious sends all sorts of vapors, odd beings, terrors, and deluding images up into the mind – whether in dream, broad daylight, or insanity; for the human kingdom, beneath the floor of the comparatively neat little dwelling that we call our consciousness, goes down into unsuspected Aladdin caves. There not only jewels but also dangerous jinn abide: the inconvenient or resisted psychological powers that we have not thought or dared integrate into our lives."
Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces
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"The hero adventures out of the land we know into darkness; there accomplishes his adventure or again is simply lost to us, imprisoned, or in danger; and his return is described as a coming back out of that yonder. Nevertheless—and here is a great key to the understanding of myth and symbol—the two kingdoms are actually one. The realm of the gods is a forgotten dimension of the world we know. And the exploration of that dimension, either willingly or unwillingly, is the whole sense of the deed of the hero."
Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, (3rd. edition), p. 188
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“Nietzsche was the one who did the job for me. At a certain moment in his life, the idea came to him of what he called 'the love of your fate.' Whatever your fate is, whatever the hell happens, you say, 'This is what I need.' It may look like a wreck, but go at it as though it were an opportunity, a challenge. If you bring love to that moment—not discouragement—you will find the strength is there. Any disaster you can survive is an improvement in your character, your stature, and your life. What a privilege! This is when the spontaneity of your own nature will have a chance to flow.
"Then, when looking back at your life, you will see that the moments which seemed to be great failures followed by wreckage were the incidents that shaped the life you have now. You’ll see that this is really true. Nothing can happen to you that is not positive. Even though it looks and feels at the moment like a negative crisis, it is not. The crisis throws you back, and when you are required to exhibit strength, it comes.”
Joseph Campbell, A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living.
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I didn't know Nietzsche was into that, although when you think about it, he was into everything.
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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger."
~Nietzsche
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Yes, good point, but I wasn't aware he coined that out of a deeper theme of 'the love or your fate'.
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Yes, good point, but I wasn't aware he coined that out of a deeper theme of 'the love or your fate'.
From Wiki:
Amor fati is a Latin phrase loosely translating to "love of fate" or "love of one's fate". It is used to describe an attitude in which one sees everything that happens in one's life, including suffering and loss, as good. Moreover, it is characterized by an acceptance of the events or situations that occur in one's life.
The phrase has been linked to the writings of Marcus Aurelius, who did not himself use the words (he wrote in Greek, not Latin).
The phrase is used repeatedly in Friedrich Nietzsche's writings and is representative of the general outlook on life he articulates in section 276 of The Gay Science, which reads:
"I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer."
It is important to note that Nietzsche in this context refers to "Yes-sayer", not in a political or social sense, but to the uncompromising acceptance of reality per se.
Quotation from "Why I Am So Clever" in Ecce Homo, section 10:
"My formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati: that one wants nothing to be different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely bear what is necessary, still less conceal it—all idealism is mendacity in the face of what is necessary—but love it."
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Another applicable quote from Nietzsche --
"The greater the suffering, the greater the potential for joy. How little you know of human happiness, you comfortable and benevolent people. For happiness and unhappiness are sisters and even twins that either grow up together or remain small together. Those who wish to experience the fullness of life must also suffer deeply, for it is in recovery from a crippling disease that life is most fully affirmed."
--Nietzsche
This was culled from the following article, embracing Amor Fati:
http://www.anonymousone.com/faq58.htm
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Yes, thanks for those quotes Nichi. Nietzsche is a fascinating character. I have only read The Twilight of the Gods, and Thus Spake Zarathustra, the latter I preferred by far.
I feel you have to give him the poetic licence to follow a thought through to it's surprising connections, without criticising pedantically any particular point. We don't have to agree with every point, because it's the whole ride that holds the wisdom. I always want to go back and nit-pick, but realised that would cripple his poetic vision, which was really something to celebrate.
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Yes, thanks for those quotes Nichi. Nietzsche is a fascinating character. I have only read The Twilight of the Gods, and Thus Spake Zarathustra, the latter I preferred by far.
I feel you have to give him the poetic licence to follow a thought through to it's surprising connections, without criticising pedantically any particular point. We don't have to agree with every point, because it's the whole ride that holds the wisdom. I always want to go back and nit-pick, but realised that would cripple his poetic vision, which was really something to celebrate.
Well, I'm not advocating for him, please don't misunderstand. I was actually surprised that Joseph Campbell was so admiring of him.
Western philosophy is one of those fields whose breadth requires knowledge of the whole in order to draw conclusions. And not just "the whole" of a given philosopher's work, but the whole of philosophy in general, going way back to the monists and working forward. The reason for the necessity for knowledge of the whole is that each philosopher's work is responding to the previous eminent thinker's. They all build on one another, in a linear fashion. Some branch into specific points of focus: some epistemological, some ontological, some aesthetic, some ethical, etc. etc. etc. To fully appreciate one and to see the "new" creation, there must be an understanding of the departure points from the previous works.
I absolutely do not have that understanding. I did take many philosophy courses in college, which is how I can make the bold claim: I do not understand. It's an ambitious undertaking, and a scholarly one, to take that linear path. My hat is off to anyone who can get through all the works of all the philosophers. If I was to endeavor that study, that is what I would demand of myself, to start at the beginning.
Where I enter in with Nietzsche is via a course I had to drop, for personal reasons. It featured one of his later works, on Dionysius vs. Apollo. It was extremely fascinating, and did not deal with the ubermensch. I'm not so familiar with Nietzsche's work, which seems to have been taken by the Third Reich as justification. (Were they on the right track in usurping his concepts? That seems to be greatly debated.) All I know is that his works continue to be controversial and misunderstood, as a cursory scan of this article will reveal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_and_reception_of_Friedrich_Nietzsche
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All of the above, of course, calls to mind the folly of quotes. We do this thing, taking quotes, but I wonder sometimes if we should. Do I really understand the context of the quote, do I really understand the speaker's intent and meaning? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I tend to take a quote for its dazzling, heuristic value, or for an appreciation of the speaker's deft use of language. For the image, for the metaphor. But I always think about it: am I lazy to do so. Shouldn't I be explaining the whole.
~Ongoing consideration.
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I thought that this was an interesting take on 'demons'.
"A deity is the personification of a spiritual power, and deities who are not recognized become demonic and are really dangerous. One has been out of communication: their messages have not been heard, or if heard, not heeded. And when they do break through, in the end, there is literally hell to pay."
Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor
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With the sorts of cultural activities which pique my interest -- mythology, iconography, story-telling, and folklore -- I find Joseph Campbell very evocative.
"We cannot predict the next mythology which is coming, for mythology is not ideology. It is not generated by the brain, but from those deep creative centers below the human psyche. But we can predict what it had better be. The first function of mythology is to open the mind to the mystery of the universe––to the mystery of one's self. Unless the panorama of the world, and the experience of your own presence in it, opens back into that mystery zone from which the energies come that inform the body and shape the universe, you don't have a mythological structure."
Joseph Campbell, interviewed by Joan Marler in the Yoga Journal, November / December 1987 (Campbell passed away prior to publication, on October 30, 1987)
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“In the Orient, the gods do not stand as ultimate terms, ultimate ends, substantial beings, to be sought and regarded in and for themselves. They are more like metaphors, to serve as guides, pointing beyond themselves and leading one to an experience of one’s own identity with a mystery that transcends them. I have found that the approach through Freud and Jung greatly helps to make this point clear to students brought up in the mythology of Yahweh—a jealous god, who would hold men to himself and who turned mankind away from the Tree of Immortality, instead of leading us to it. Such a god in the Orient would be regarded as a deluding idol. In fact, heaven itself and our desire for its joys are regarded there as the last barrier, the last obstacle to release, to be transcended.”
Joseph Campbell, "Comparative Mythology as an Introduction to Cross-cultural Studies," in The Mythic Dimension
https://www.facebook.com/JosephCampbellFoundation?fref=nf
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i am sure this guy believes what he said and it makes perfect sense to him
through his intellect
the reality is a complete contradiction of what he says there
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17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…
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"Creative artists ... are mankind's wakeners to recollection: summoners of our outward mind to conscious contact with ourselves, not as participants in this or that morsel of history, but as spirit, in the consciousness of being. Their task, therefore, is to communicate directly from one inward world to another, in such a way that an actual shock of experience will have been rendered: not a mere statement for the information or persuasion of a brain, but an effective communication across the void of space and time from one center of consciousness to another."
Joseph Campbell, The Masks of God, Volume IV: Creative Mythology
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"When I bought my computer––anyone who has tried to work a computer knows what my experience was––I thought, well, I wonder what god it is that is there? Being somewhat an expert on gods, I lived with this computer a couple of months, and then I recognized the god. It was Yahweh of the Old Testament: a lot of rules and no mercy! But then, when you get to know the rules and your fingers obey them, it is fabulous what the thing can do!
"That is the way it is with the rules in art. You have to learn to know them, and if it is a proper, up-to-date local art, the rules will have something to do with the life of people here and now, not a big smoochy general thing about life, but how it is here and now, what our problems and our mysteries are, here and now. You have to know your own day. You have to know your own relation to your own day, and then forget it! Let the thing build into you, the way my knowledge of my computer is built into me now. And then each of you can sing."
Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Dimension: "Creativity"
(courtesy of the Joseph Campbell Foundation)
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:)
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I thought that this was an interesting take on 'demons'.
"A deity is the personification of a spiritual power, and deities who are not recognized become demonic and are really dangerous. One has been out of communication: their messages have not been heard, or if heard, not heeded. And when they do break through, in the end, there is literally hell to pay."
Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor
So was thinking about Joseph Campbell today, as I work on getting into sculpting altar statues, and doing other mythologically based art. Hadn't read this thread since this post here, which interestingly was July 28th of 2015, and now its only a few days after july 28th of 2017. That said, an altar statue a FB friend of mine might be interested in is base off a demon of the Goetia. And I thought, would I want to make that statue, not sure I want to connect with that energy as deeply as I do when I'm making art. But it did occur to me to view it a representation of energy repressed in the Shadow, as such connecting with it might be a good idea, might help me process some things. And her choice of demon is representative, in some ways, of some things I would benefit from confronting. Seeing this quote kind of adds to the idea that maybe its not such a bad idea..... still the karmic question of how is she intending to make use of such a statue...... but in general she seems to have pretty positive views about life.......
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Whenever we identify strongly with a particular aspect of ourselves, we create an equally strong and opposite aspect in our shadow. If you see yourself as a person of integrity, and hold to that view with determination and desire, then you naturally create a shadow self of dishonest and corrupted character. If you refuse to acknowledge that aspect in yourself, then it will seep into your life insidiously and sabotage your aspirations. That is the shadow.
Deities are cumulative personalities of communities of people, thus the process of the shadow applies to groups as much as individuals. But due to the extent of power associated with a community's obsession about it own identity, the power in a negative deity can be more than an individual is capable of handling.
If you want my advice, leave these deities alone unless you truly understand what you are doing and why. The problem for us, is that we have enough difficulties already, and don't need to invite elements into our aura that can cause a tail spin of misfortune. If however, you know precisely why a particular deity is associated with an element in your own personal shadow, then manifesting it in some way can be beneficial.
The difficulty is that, outside of India, the dual aspects of deities are not emphasised. Thus you don't receive cultural assistance in processing the shadow elements through to the light in ways that can be beneficial. In this case, you would probably have to delve into Crowley's energetic views to decipher the archetypical codes, and that is not a place I would advise anyone to venture.
If it were me, I'd give the commission a swerve.
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Just noticed your reply here, in many ways much what I was thinking. Fortunately I haven't actually committed to making any for others yet. I was just getting an idea of what the people on my friends list might be interested in, and doing some initial advertising.
I have read some Crowley, of and on, but I'm not really a fan. Couldn't say exactly why right now, just any time I read him the its brief interest that doesn't stick. But a lot of his ideas that I've come across weren't wrong. Though, like I said, I have very basic familiarity with his system.
Now Chaos Magicians, who are to some degree influenced by Crowley, more so Austin Osman Spare, their approach I like. Though still only have rudimentary knowledge of. And have often considered creating a refined.... perhaps more holistic approach to Magic/k, that would borrow from the deconstructionist approach of Chaos Magic. They to had an interest in delving into the Shadow side, as it seems many Shamanic traditions do.
Could you elaborate in greater detail on your dislike (if that is the right word? cautioning against?) of Crowley's energetic views?
In western culture people could probably benefit from a system that does place an emphasis on the Shadow side of deities. I would be surprise if the collective shadow of western culture isn't at least a tad responsible for stuff like, oh, Trump's election.
I was considering symbolic, mythological ways in which people might process the shadow side... one such approach was inspired by a dream Jen had recently. Her dream was inspired by an idea I was sharing with her. In the dream a magician was wrestling a bear. The bear seemed to represent a shadow aspect of the magician. Its something I'm not particularly fond of, taking elements of nature and saying they are the part of us that is "bad", which we aren't saying here, but if not careful, people interpret it that way. But it occurred to me, that one could do something similar to the dual aspects of deities, with nature. Make sure its spelled out that the symbols are representations of ways people perceive nature, not of nature as it is. Then you could have dual aspects of the bear, dual aspects of the bat, dual aspects of fish, tiger, tree, etc. Simultaneously confronting the aversion, denial, dislike of inner and outer nature, that leads us to pollute both.
In my subconscious for instance I do have a symbol of a bat that often comes up in reference to a tendency I've had toward timidity and insecurity that results in me "dwelling in the darkness" even when amongst others. It also leads to a false echolocation, a hearing the ego reflected back. In which I "hear" the contents of my own mind in the world around me. Sometimes like a slight paranoia. Yet, even when dwelling into the negative felt-sense of this bat symbol, even then I feel a positive side in there. That becomes an embrace of the consciousness expanding, auditory intelligence strengthening value of venturing forth in the darkness of night. Also not fearing the darkness.
Then you could easily represent higher concepts and energy with say visionary art portrayals of aspects of the natural world.
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As a general rule, I am against discussions about Crowley, because I know where they lead, and the energy they introduce - an energy I don't want in Soma. Like most western people interested in a spiritual path, I investigated western magic - Golden Dawn, The Golden Bough, Alchemy, Masons etc - there was quite a lot happening in 18 and 19th centuries, with a lot of violence intermixed by church and societal reactions. They coalesced in a particular small country in Europe (whose name I forget - I think it no longer exists under that name anyway) where the rulers welcomed them in as a kind of refugee. My understanding is that the consequence for that country was quite beneficial, although I have little proof of that.
In general, the stream that followed the Golden Dawn and Crowley got mired in a king of suprasensible landscape that was a spiritual dead-end, which is why I adopt Gurdjieff's attitude when Crowley visited him - acknowledged him but studiously ignoring him until he went away. I do not advise anyone to study his works. The dealing with the shadow side of human desire in Europe has had a very bad name and the constant wars are a consequence of this poor handling. Europeans by nature seem to have an excess of self-righteousness and puritanical poopiness, to say the least - just look at their cathedrals.
But anyone who does want to study up on western magic, I suggest The White Goddess, all the writings of Dion Fortune, Rudolf Steiner (esp his material on the Rosicrucians), Carl Jung, as well as books on Avalon and Merlin (they have a good vibe). There are others, but the principle is to identify the colour of the energy that streams from them.
Releasing the pressure from the shadow does not mean indulging in it. It has to be handled with care. The important thing is to acknowledge it - not to be so self-satisfied with your positive or negative opinions. "Humility is a great thing, Arjuna, much greater than archery." [The Mahabharata]
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You wouldn't recommend studying Crowley, what about those horror writer's who's ideas have been inspired by Crowley, the Golden Dawn, and other related groups and peoples? My wife loves horror, and I've gradually tried to find an interest in the subject. Despite her aspirations of being a horror writer, she currently doesn't believe in her ability. I've considered doing a study of the subject, and writing a horror story or integrating some horror into a story, and seeing if Jen will work on it with me. Would you also recommend against exploring the ideas of horror writers who've been inspired by Crowley and related people?
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I don't have any problem with horror writings, wherever they get them from - it's not my genre, but I know dramatisations have to find material that works.
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Now Michael I agree per discussions keeping it out of here. But would you agree its still good to know the history of Golden Dawn and Crowleys works? Esp if you encounter one who has a question on it. Knowledge is power right?
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You wouldn't recommend studying Crowley, what about those horror writer's who's ideas have been inspired by Crowley, the Golden Dawn, and other related groups and peoples? My wife loves horror, and I've gradually tried to find an interest in the subject. Despite her aspirations of being a horror writer, she currently doesn't believe in her ability. I've considered doing a study of the subject, and writing a horror story or integrating some horror into a story, and seeing if Jen will work on it with me. Would you also recommend against exploring the ideas of horror writers who've been inspired by Crowley and related people?
Those ideas allegedly based on Crowley and the Golden Dawn (from which C separated fairly early on, so they are almost irrelevant to discussions about him) are usually pretty askew. He is a recurring idea in British whodunnits, I've noticed. The real Crowley was an egomaniac, and as a professor of mine used to say, his poetry was awful. He had a dismally low view of women, and experimented along the ceremonial lines of dominating the critters from the lower astral. He tends to appeal to young men searching for "power", and not in the Toltec sense of the word. I did study favorably his take on the Tarot, but after that, his work has a very depressing vibe.
Given that your spouse is prone to depression, I definitely would not recommend her studying him. As a matter of fact, I had 2 friends who ended up in psych hospital for long periods of time after following C's motifs. And I know of a 3rd. Michael has a good policy there of not getting involved with him here in this place.
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His books were the first of mine to go.
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Vicki I totally agree with you. I have seen so many over the years who got into Crowley and GD, or other forms of CM and got mentally unstable. I just removed a young kid who was heavy under the influence. Getting worse and worse. But I'm glad I read up on it years ago myself. It prepared me in meeting others. Nick ill surmise. Its a quick path. But the risk is absolute madness. If she has depression, absolutely not!
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Crowley attracted many low-life spirits, which come through in his later works more and more. It is in him the danger lies. If you want to be somewhat informed about him, read a biographical text, not his own writings.
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Given that your spouse is prone to depression, I definitely would not recommend her studying him. As a matter of fact, I had 2 friends who ended up in psych hospital for long periods of time after following C's motifs. And I know of a 3rd. Michael has a good policy there of not getting involved with him here in this place.
Crowley attracted many low-life spirits, which come through in his later works more and more. It is in him the danger lies. If you want to be somewhat informed about him, read a biographical text, not his own writings.
Michael's last statement (as well as his previous) here kind of relates to my thinking. In a sense I was wondering the appropriate distance if you will... Michael said you have to use what works for dramatizations. Still the Graphic Novel writer Alan Moore (I love the Watchmen!) delved into these subjects quite a bit, and it led to him taken them up as a practice in his daily life. Much like me making sculptures and turning down the request for the demon statue, because I would connect to the energy in creating it. In my mind a good artist goes quite deep into the energy they are trying to put into their creations. That said, perhaps I would create a story using some of Crowley's ideas and take the appropriate precautions to not delve to deep, but even with me working by my wife's side, I don't know that she wouldn't take a deeper interest. BUT like with a biographical text, I can imagine looking at what other artists have done with Crowley's ideas, and playing with those ideas to make them your own. I get a very different feel from say, Alan Moore or Lovecraft, than Crowley.
For instance no one can really say for sure that Lovecraft drew from Crowley, but even I with only a cursory knowledge of Crowley can see the many parallels, as well as the unique differences. And Lovecraft had a huge effect on the genre, everyone uses his work, and yet when they do it well it can still make for an awesome story without being cliche. A lot of the greats drew from the world of actual practice to give there works a more lasting deeper felt appeal. To me it just makes good sense.
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I'm reminded of an anecdote one of my teachers used to tell. She was from Scotland, where the prohibitions, being part of Great Britain, on witchcraft loosened considerably during WWII. It was known that there was a network of spiritualists and witches working against Hitler, and their efforts were secretly applauded.
I have absolutely no proof of this -- these are the stories I heard in the 70's and 80's. Underground stories, if you will. Gerald Gardner might have been one of the ones who wrote about it, but I got rid of his books too.
I've been watching a lot of British drama lately, and very recently I watched a reference to this underground occult movement-to-bring-down-Hitler. It was part and parcel to an unrelated story. But what did the writers do - they attributed the movement to Crowley. I just know that this is inaccurate. It seems as if he's the only idea which survived the blood, sweat, and tears of those actually involved in that Work. On the one hand, a gross injustice of "history" -- on the other, as Michael intimated, the ones involved in the work of the shaman do not take credit, and prefer to work in obscurity, anonymity, eschewing "glory". They aren't famous writers describing their process.
So did Lovecraft have Crowley as a model? I don't know, because there's a lot which is attributed to Crowley which is not accurate. (That, and I don't know Lovecraft's work.)
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Vicki. Do you think its ok to use the Thoth deck? I have no problems using it. But I admit it took me years to work with it. What's your take on it?
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Vicki. Do you think its ok to use the Thoth deck? I have no problems using it. But I admit it took me years to work with it. What's your take on it?
I used the Thoth deck when I taught a Tarot class. I used it in comparison to the Ryder, to show the progression. But use it for readings, no - it made folks too nervous.
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Right. I normally use gilded or spiral for my reads. But on occasion I feel called to use it
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"All societies are evil, sorrowful, inequitable; and so they will always be. So if you really want to help this world, what you will have to teach is how to live in it. And that no one can do who has not himself learned how to live in it in the joyful sorrow and sorrowful joy of the knowledge of life as it is."
Joseph Campbell
I really love Joseph Campbell. But If I accept this as true, then society will never change. I have got to believe in the potential for a new age.
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As a general rule, I am against discussions about Crowley, because I know where they lead, and the energy they introduce - an energy I don't want in Soma. Like most western people interested in a spiritual path, I investigated western magic - Golden Dawn, The Golden Bough, Alchemy, Masons etc - there was quite a lot happening in 18 and 19th centuries, with a lot of violence intermixed by church and societal reactions. They coalesced in a particular small country in Europe (whose name I forget - I think it no longer exists under that name anyway) where the rulers welcomed them in as a kind of refugee. My understanding is that the consequence for that country was quite beneficial, although I have little proof of that.
In general, the stream that followed the Golden Dawn and Crowley got mired in a king of suprasensible landscape that was a spiritual dead-end, which is why I adopt Gurdjieff's attitude when Crowley visited him - acknowledged him but studiously ignoring him until he went away. I do not advise anyone to study his works. The dealing with the shadow side of human desire in Europe has had a very bad name and the constant wars are a consequence of this poor handling. Europeans by nature seem to have an excess of self-righteousness and puritanical poopiness, to say the least - just look at their cathedrals.
But anyone who does want to study up on western magic, I suggest The White Goddess, all the writings of Dion Fortune, Rudolf Steiner (esp his material on the Rosicrucians), Carl Jung, as well as books on Avalon and Merlin (they have a good vibe). There are others, but the principle is to identify the colour of the energy that streams from them.
Releasing the pressure from the shadow does not mean indulging in it. It has to be handled with care. The important thing is to acknowledge it - not to be so self-satisfied with your positive or negative opinions. "Humility is a great thing, Arjuna, much greater than archery." [The Mahabharata]
I wont go into a big huge thing on Crowley to honor wishes but...he was on the Sgt Pepper's album. :) I work with the Thoth deck. Now I avoided the deck like the plague for a long, long time cause of Crowley. But then I got the nod to use the deck. I guess I felt I needed to face the deck and...I have found it very accurate. I have coined the Thoth deck "The deck that does not care if it hurts your feelings." Now it has a lot of Egyptian elements in it. But my working with it for some years now, I dont have any negative Crowley vibe from it. It has taken on a magic of its own. Now I dont care for him as a person he was not a good person per se. But all magical circles agree on one thing: Crowley knew his magic. He was brilliant in decoding some things. I would never ever walk a Thelema path of course myself. But he was a master with magical systems.
Maybe thats why The Beatles had him on the cover. He still contributed to some spiritual "stuff" which had some value. BUT a huge caveat - you have to know what to extract, and what to discard. Thats my opinion on that.
Interesting thread I was called to read it.