Soma
Turns of the Road => The Double (Public) => Topic started by: Nichi on June 26, 2009, 12:03:39 AM
-
Is it even possible to have two? Or even more?
I ask this generically, without specific details, for now. (And make no promises for the future, heheh.)
I'm not speaking of 'guides' per se -- at least I don't think I am. I realize there can be an unlimited number of those.
If it isn't "possible" to have 2 or more, and the same Double just presents in a variety of personae, on whose volition does s/he coalesce to be the recognizable entity one walks into upon death?
The older I get, the less control I attempt to exert. I rather enjoy those whom I've met on the other side.
Thanks,
V
-
Is it even possible to have two? Or even more?
I ask this generically, without specific details, for now. (And make no promises for the future, heheh.)
I'm not speaking of 'guides' per se -- at least I don't think I am. I realize there can be an unlimited number of those.
If it isn't "possible" to have 2 or more, and the same Double just presents in a variety of personae, on whose volition does s/he coalesce to be the recognizable entity one walks into upon death?
The older I get, the less control I attempt to exert. I rather enjoy those whom I've met on the other side.
Thanks,
V
My experience of it has been that we have one double, but s/he can take any form at any time - throughout the space/time continuum and beyond. At first, I had a helluva time wrapping my mind around this, and VERY early on in my journey I was trying to get some clarity on it from Orlando, and he responded with a quip which essentially said, "...I am Vulcan, vampire, pirate, prince, beggar, thief, teacher, friend, guardian, fiend. And these are just some of the things you have willed me to be."
As I became more knowledgeable on the path, I came to *see* that the double can take on any form (or none at all), and may serve as the "muse" as well as the teacher/guide. Maybe today I need Orlando to teach me about petty tyrants, and so he might take on the persona of a warlord in ancient Rome, for example. At some other time in my evolution, perhaps I want to learn about immortality, and so perhaps he might assume the persona of a vampire *heh*. Early in my life, I was drawn to Star Trek and the character of Spock, largely because I needed to learn about "fragmentation" - and so my double was able to take on the persona of the "vulcan" in order to reveal that lesson to me directly and personally.
In the big picture, the double can be anything, and all of it is happening simultaneously: the warlord in Rome, the seductive immortal, the divided vulcan, and so on. Many times, the double will assume personas of various archetypes, which is why I use these "extreme" examples rather than more traditional human roles (father, mother, sister, brother).
So, to answer your question, my sense of it is that we have only one double, but s/he may present in more than one manifestation, and may even do so simultaneously, since the double is not confined by our linear understanding of time.
On whose volition does s/he coalesce to be the recognizable entity one walks into upon death?
I would say it's on our volition (the human self). However, I also have a strong sense that the process is more or less instantaneous and automatic at that point, and the double/self combine & conjoin as a matter of intent, and a movement of will. And, most importantly, an expression of unconditional love which manifests as the flowering of the totality of oneself.
That's how I've come to see it over the years. :) And, of course, I'm curious as to why you asked. *heh* Is your double dancing with you?
-
I have many interactions with my double, though I have to look for that certain mischief and sensation. I was convinced it was male for years, but then I came to see it as female. Still, the male version shows up, one way or the other.
Yesterday, I had a very vivid dream of a Chinese woman -- a new manifestation, if indeed it was the double. Likewise, I've seen an old Chinese man. And an American man, an Irish man, a Mexican man, an elegant European female named Nazca, etc. etc. There seems to be no limit.
There are guides who are not of the same personality/entity as well ... usually it's only once that I see them, and I don't feel that deep connection. With those it's very specific, usually: a message, a gift, vital information, etc. etc.
-
For the past 6 months, I have hailed my double relentlessly, in the whole ordeal with my mother.
Whatever has transpired in the past 6 months has been mostly out of my conscious memory, so clogged I was with cold meds for a while. I can tell already my dreaming will return to my memory, here in Va, though.
-
I have many interactions with my double, though I have to look for that certain mischief and sensation. I was convinced it was male for years, but then I came to see it as female. Still, the male version shows up, one way or the other.
Sounds to me like your double is exploring a wide range of possibility - a very good thing, imho, since it provides a broad spectrum of experience. Orlando has been primarily male throughout my life, though has appeared as a female in Dreaming a time or two. I always recognize him by the resonance we share, no matter what form he takes - rather like a frequency that is uniquely his/mine.
Yesterday, I had a very vivid dream of a Chinese woman -- a new manifestation, if indeed it was the double. Likewise, I've seen an old Chinese man. And an American man, an Irish man, a Mexican man, an elegant European female named Nazca, etc. etc. There seems to be no limit.
That's it exactly. There is no limit. That's why I've been able to experiment with the double as various archetypes - which is not only a helluva lot of fun, but I feel it also opens the door to a whole other range of power/possibility we don't often consider for ourselves as "mere" humans. The whole bit about the Vulcan and the vampire... may sound silly to some, but since the double need not be confined by our human limitations, allowing our "muse" to take on non-human personas enables us to experience awareness outside the box, through gnosis. Hard to put to words.
(And, for the record, I'm not talking about the Hollywoodized version of vampires - but more the old legends of eternal beings who exchange energy directly from the universal source - so in essence they are "plugged in" to the energetic/synergetic universe directly).
Point being - by taking our double outside the realm of humanform manifestation, we can also begin to broaden our possibilities and enhance our totality and - last but not least - expand the range of our assemblage point dramatically.
-
I always recognize him by the resonance we share, no matter what form he takes - rather like a frequency that is uniquely his/mine.
Yes, the resonance and deep connection and unspoken understanding is the ticket for me too.
-
As for the "nonhuman", hmmm ... would you put power animals, for example, into the pot? Tulpas too? Is everything on the astral the double in thy view?
(Don't mean the question as disagreement ... just wondering what yer take is and expanding me own.)
On the astral, my life has been saved a few times by the animals and other unknown friends... just trying on a framework of my double expanding his/her experience.
Love,
V
-
Is it even possible to have two? Or even more?
I ask this generically, without specific details, for now. (And make no promises for the future, heheh.)
I'm not speaking of 'guides' per se -- at least I don't think I am. I realize there can be an unlimited number of those.
If it isn't "possible" to have 2 or more, and the same Double just presents in a variety of personae, on whose volition does s/he coalesce to be the recognizable entity one walks into upon death?
Hey Vicki, everything is "possible".
:-* :-*
-
That's it exactly. There is no limit. That's why I've been able to experiment with the double as various archetypes - which is not only a helluva lot of fun, but I feel it also opens the door to a whole other range of power/possibility we don't often consider for ourselves as "mere" humans. The whole bit about the Vulcan and the vampire...
I don't quite understand this part... maybe I missed something, but to what do "Vulcan and the vampire" refer or what do they represent. Do you have a link if I missed a thread?? ???
-
I don't quite understand this part... maybe I missed something, but to what do "Vulcan and the vampire" refer or what do they represent. Do you have a link if I missed a thread?? ???
It's from my initial response to Vicki:
My experience of it has been that we have one double, but s/he can take any form at any time - throughout the space/time continuum and beyond. At first, I had a helluva time wrapping my mind around this, and VERY early on in my journey I was trying to get some clarity on it from Orlando, and he responded with a quip which essentially said, "...I am Vulcan, vampire, pirate, prince, beggar, thief, teacher, friend, guardian, fiend. And these are just some of the things you have willed me to be."
As I became more knowledgeable on the path, I came to *see* that the double can take on any form (or none at all), and may serve as the "muse" as well as the teacher/guide. Maybe today I need Orlando to teach me about petty tyrants, and so he might take on the persona of a warlord in ancient Rome, for example. At some other time in my evolution, perhaps I want to learn about immortality, and so perhaps he might assume the persona of a vampire *heh*. Early in my life, I was drawn to Star Trek and the character of Spock, largely because I needed to learn about "fragmentation" - and so my double was able to take on the persona of the "vulcan" in order to reveal that lesson to me directly and personally.
-
As for the "nonhuman", hmmm ... would you put power animals, for example, into the pot? Tulpas too? Is everything on the astral the double in thy view?
Depends, on a case by case basis, I think. The double COULD take on the form of a power animal, but there are clearly power animals that are whole & separate unto themselves, too. Tulpas are in a category all by themselves - a fascinating subject I'd love to delve into sometime as a result of some experiences I had back in my 20s and early 30s. Just briefly, I think the double may actually start out as a "tulpa" in certain cases - a tulpa being simply a thoughtform that can take on manifestation under certain conditions. In working with others over the years re developing/creating their double, observations have been made that initially the double may behave much as a tulpa - but as the seeker continues the work of creating the double, the "tulpa" may actually begin to be recognized as a projection of energy from its creator. Now, obviously that's a WAY scaled down version. Some would say tulpas can be dangerous, and I wouldn't disagree with that, so I would simply say for now that it's probably best (for me anyway) to look at it as follows: the double MAY be mistaken for a tulpa, but someone else's tulpa would not EASILY be mistaken for your double (because of the resonance/frequency issue already mentioned).
Is everything on the astral the double? Of course not. :) But I'd say a fair amount of what people call their guides or their guardian angels actually ARE their own double. But, yes, there are lots of other astral entities that are whole and viable unto themselves, that have nothing to do with our doubles.
(Don't mean the question as disagreement ... just wondering what yer take is and expanding me own.)
On the astral, my life has been saved a few times by the animals and other unknown friends... just trying on a framework of my double expanding his/her experience.
I've noticed that other beings may work WITH the double on the level of astral and Dreaming. So, again, I think we know our doubles by the "vibe" they give off, for lack of a better definition. One of the scariest experiences I ever had on the astral level was probably 30 years ago, when I found myself back in the weird old house where I grew up. Lots of weird energies there, not all of it good - Florida swamplands, so lots of Cajun vibes, as well as some "restless" negativity (which I think may be responsible for the higher volume of missing/murdered children than almost anywhere else in the world, it seems... but that's another story for another time). Anyway, point is... I found myself back there in astral to do battle with some horrendous force that was attached to the property. I knew I was no match for it in a one-on-one battle, and yet at the critical moment, a "cat" jumped up into the window, distracting the astral presence, and giving me the opportunity to escape with my life. In hindsight, I now know that this "cat" was a ruse - either the double, or more likely, a power animal summoned by the double, or perhaps even by myself, though I'm not sure I was a good enough warrior back then to be summoning power animals... but who knows?
What I've really learned over the years is that so much of what we tend to think of as "extant" really isn't. Problem is, when most folks realize the kind of power they really DO have, it scares them shitless, and they go running right back to the comfort zones of religion, which will always be happy to tell them the power is outside themselves. (Now, please put $20 in the collection plate, say 3 Hail Cthulu's, and be afraid, be very afraid.) *LOL*
Sorry... feeling a bit irreverent this morning. :)
-
You do hit on a certain issue at the beginning and end of the post: what is "me" and what is "other"? I myself am of the mind that there is both: what I've created and a whole universe or two which I did not create. Furthermore, that a central part of the Path is learning discernment of each, and hopefully honing those creation-skills in the process.
Not that tulpas can't carry a lot of (dangerous, as you say) power, but I always sense an artificial, mental, contrived, forced quality with them. That even if they acquire their own momentum and will, there's a certain emptiness there. This is a different recognition than that of the double, which I have always gleaned beckons from the other side of the door.
We could go on. I definitely agree with you here:
Is everything on the astral the double? Of course not. But I'd say a fair amount of what people call their guides or their guardian angels actually ARE their own double. But, yes, there are lots of other astral entities that are whole and viable unto themselves, that have nothing to do with our doubles.
Thanks all around, Della, for sharing your take. It all started with my trying to identify the Chinese lady from a dream the other night, which sent me to revisit these other questions.
Interesting stuff.
-
My experience of it has been that we have one double, but s/he can take any form at any time
concur.
but it leads to a problem of distinguishing who is what in our subtle life.
I consider it very important to be able to sense who we are really dealing with - in all areas of life. But that is another subject.
-
Yesterday, I had a very vivid dream of a Chinese woman -- a new manifestation, if indeed it was the double.
Yes, I certainly feel that was your double. Manifesting that way for a reason, or for no reason.
-
Not that tulpas can't carry a lot of (dangerous, as you say) power, but I always sense an artificial, mental, contrived, forced quality with them. That even if they acquire their own momentum and will, there's a certain emptiness there. This is a different recognition than that of the double, which I have always gleaned beckons from the other side of the door.
I know what you mean about the contrived, forced quality. I think that's what we see when the tulpa is "undeveloped" or in almost an "infant" state. One thing about tulpas is that they are not really self-sustaining unless they are nurtured in an ongoing basis. I think it's actually pretty easy to create a tulpa (even unknowingly and unintentionally). But as I understand it, tulpas don't last unless they are infused with the energy of their creator - which would be a more intensive process, and MIGHT result in the double becoming the "projection" of the self rather than just a transient thought form.
Not sure this is making sense - would take a lot more exploration. It's just a fascinating subject to me, so I'm having fun processing it through this conversation. :)
-
I know what you mean about the contrived, forced quality. I think that's what we see when the tulpa is "undeveloped" or in almost an "infant" state. One thing about tulpas is that they are not really self-sustaining unless they are nurtured in an ongoing basis. I think it's actually pretty easy to create a tulpa (even unknowingly and unintentionally). But as I understand it, tulpas don't last unless they are infused with the energy of their creator - which would be a more intensive process, and MIGHT result in the double becoming the "projection" of the self rather than just a transient thought form.
Not sure this is making sense - would take a lot more exploration. It's just a fascinating subject to me, so I'm having fun processing it through this conversation. :)
I think you're probably right -- they require cultivation and attention in order to develop that sentience or independence. Like a child needs love.
Or do they, :)? I made one many years ago, released him, and, contrary to my expectation, found that he was still out and about years and years later. I expected him to fizzle out through being forgotten. He was in some different world, so who knows? Perhaps I didn't create him after all, but plucked him from some pre-existing place for a short time. He did me a favor, he left. (Don't know, but I think I would think twice about ever doing that again.)
-
I think you're probably right -- they require cultivation and attention in order to develop that sentience or independence. Like a child needs love.
Or do they, :)? I made one many years ago, released him, and, contrary to my expectation, found that he was still out and about years and years later. I expected him to fizzle out through being forgotten. He was in some different world, so who knows? Perhaps I didn't create him after all, but plucked him from some pre-existing place for a short time. He did me a favor, he left. (Don't know, but I think I would think twice about ever doing that again.)
Some tulpas may last longer than others depending on the strength of the intent with which they were made. If the intent of the creator is powerful enough, the tulpa may have sufficient energy to find its own "way" long after it has served its original purpose. Most seem to fade, but it sounds like your tulpa had been given an agenda - which tends to give them a greater sense of "being".
-
Is it even possible to have two? Or even more?
Vicki,
I know I already answered this in PM, but realized it may be worth putting 'out there' for discussion. As promised I asked for answers in dreaming to this question and as always answers come swiflty. Not quite sure what to make of what I did receive so I'll throw it out for ponderance and possible discussion.
I had decided I would contact Don Juan or Carlos for answers to this question, but the answer came to me unexpectedly last night, before I had time to even intend to seek either one of them. :P
I was told, very clearly and in a strong voice that Naguals have two doubles.
What does anyone think about this?
-
Vicki,
I know I already answered this in PM, but realized it may be worth putting 'out there' for discussion. As promised I asked for answers in dreaming to this question and as always answers come swiflty. Not quite sure what to make of what I did receive so I'll throw it out for ponderance and possible discussion.
I had decided I would contact Don Juan or Carlos for answers to this question, but the answer came to me unexpectedly last night, before I had time to even intend to seek either one of them. :P
I was told, very clearly and in a strong voice that Naguals have two doubles.
What does anyone think about this?
One of those areas I've never wandered into, largely because whenever I've tried, I find folks banging their head against a wall, not "getting" it. *LOL*
My own experience has been that Orlando is my double and I am his double. Nagual man & nagual woman - each experiencing the other as the double. Ergo... the nagual has two doubles, depending entirely on where the assemblage point is directed at any given moment.
There's more to it than that, but I'll leave it there for now. There is also the "totality" of the two, which is occasionally mistaken for a third (or second, depending on perspective) double, but is actually the future-conjoined totality of the nagual man & nagual woman.
The nagual man & nagual woman do not appear to be "separate" entities as CC originally put forth, but a single entity which has "divided" much as a cell divides - which also addresses the way a seer may *see* a nagual, having 4 compartments of energy, instead of only the usual two.
Ultimately, though, the "self" is still a single entity - but may be experiencing itself from more than a single POV - ergo it would make sense that "naguals have two doubles."
-
For me, this question began with my dream of the Chinese woman. M said that that was my double.
Granting that he was right, I then looked at that woman and knew that I did not recognize her -- that her vibration and energy were completely different to the female I've seen, and most certainly different to the men that I've seen. The men, though differing all in appearance, have a wily, rapacious, almost smart-ass quality. The female I've met indeed has a sense of humor and mischief, but I would not call her wily or hungry in the way the men are. She has a worldly elegance to her if one looks closely, but if one settled for the first glance, one could mistake her for matronly.
The Chinese woman was dead sober and deadpan. She was very in sympatico with her horse, and I had a liking for her right away. But all I can tell you is that her essence varies greatly from the original female.
So ... either she wasn't my double, or, a new entity has been added, or discovered. I suppose one would just have to take my word for it that it was a completely different energy.
I've never entertained the notion of being a nagual myself, so I'm hard-pressed to blend that idea into my thinking yet. Still processing...
-
For me, this question began with my dream of the Chinese woman. M said that that was my double.
With all loving respect to Michael, he may or may not be correct. Only you would know for certain :) But if he said it, he must have a good reason, so...
Granting that he was right, I then looked at that woman and knew that I did not recognize her -- that her vibration and energy were completely different to the female I've seen, and most certainly different to the men that I've seen. The men, though differing all in appearance, have a wily, rapacious, almost smart-ass quality. The female I've met indeed has a sense of humor and mischief, but I would not call her wily or hungry in the way the men are. She has a worldly elegance to her if one looks closely, but if one settled for the first glance, one could mistake her for matronly.
Might be interesting to ask what significance she holds to you now, after some time has passed since the dream. Do you feel she was bringing a message or a lesson? Or was she showing you something about yourself, perhaps? Not suggesting that any of these is the answer, just asking how you *see* her now.
So ... either she wasn't my double, or, a new entity has been added, or discovered. I suppose one would just have to take my word for it that it was a completely different energy.
Oh, I completely take your word for it! Been there myself a few times. What's interesting to me is that Orlando has taken many different manifestations throughout just MY human lifetime, and countless OTHER manifestations throughout the space/time continuum BEYOND my human lifetime... but when I *see* those otherselves in dreams or meditation, I usually recognize them as "him" even if they are female or a different race, creed, color, whatever. As you say, it's the energy patterns one resonates with. But, of course, that doesn't mean there may be patterns we don't recognize until years later. I am currently doing some work with a guy who REFUSES to believe his double is his double even though it's been *seen* by at least 3 different seers. I predict that one day he WILL see it for himself, but until then, it has taken on the role of an "ally".
-
Might be interesting to ask what significance she holds to you now, after some time has passed since the dream. Do you feel she was bringing a message or a lesson? Or was she showing you something about yourself, perhaps? Not suggesting that any of these is the answer, just asking how you *see* her now.
I'm completely enchanted by her quietness and her beauty. I see that she transcended the limits of her own culture, and did not hold to the proscribed immobility one encounters in that culture. Oddly enough, the key in that dream might be the torch and the horse itself. A magical horse indeed, to have walked a tightrope.
My method is to put the question 'out there' for clarification or more information, and to be ready if spirit comes back to me in it. In other words, I tend to not force the issue. I haven't gotten tangible info yet, but I can tell you she's still around. As are the other"s".
-
I think the wisest move is to not jump to conclusions if she was double or not. I think per v, if she feels the womans energy signature was 'different' esp from her own, then she probably was.
I personally had a feeling the lighting, to get across the bridge, was connected to her mother, crossing a bridge. Thats how I felt when I read it, and the chinese woman, was there as 'insurance' to see this would occur. Like one who aids travelers on the path so they can find their way. I have this feeling that v had that 'job' in past before, so the chinese woman may more be a friend or comrade than a double. Someone she knew from past who helped travelers.
Interesting theory eh? Well, makes more sense than a double, IMO.
-
I think the wisest move is to not jump to conclusions if she was double or not. I think per v, if she feels the womans energy signature was 'different' esp from her own, then she probably was.
I personally had a feeling the lighting, to get across the bridge, was connected to her mother, crossing a bridge. Thats how I felt when I read it, and the chinese woman, was there as 'insurance' to see this would occur. Like one who aids travelers on the path so they can find their way. I have this feeling that v had that 'job' in past before, so the chinese woman may more be a friend or comrade than a double. Someone she knew from past who helped travelers.
Interesting theory eh? Well, makes more sense than a double, IMO.
You could be right .. and I haven't mentioned on the board (just to Michael privately) that my mother was a horsewoman. It's the "Chinese" aspect that throws me when connecting it to her.
Things-Chinese have been popping up for me left and right in recent years, though. So perhaps I have a strong Chinese ally ...
Back and forth ... perhaps I'd rather say that I met a very neat lady in my dream, heheh. Identity unknown and I'm okay with that.
-
I personally had a feeling the lighting, to get across the bridge, was connected to her mother,
I felt Vicki's mother, too immediately.
:D
-
Me too, first thought. It also had a nagual woman/beacon of light feel as well. It says vicki did the same thing in past, imo.
Personally I think it'd be a cool flowerin job :)
-
Maybe there is some arcane Chinese story of a woman on her horse which symbolizes death and the crossing over.
-
(http://www.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/images/exbig_images/dc5eb62175f7787c80d5dcd2c56a8f2e.jpg)
-
(http://www.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/images/exbig_images/52b6c85e06bf103efde4b2b34086dd5d.jpg)
-
Beautiful sculptures, E!