Soma
Resources => Poetry [Public] => Topic started by: Nichi on September 08, 2009, 05:18:44 AM
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Various Disguises and Scams
A bird lit in a meadow where a trap was set.
Grain had been put out on the ground,
and nearby a fowler had wrapped himself in grass
and pulled roses and red anemones over his head like a cap.
The bird had some notion that this clump of grass
was not all grass, but at first look,
he had no argument about what it might be.
He hopped a circuit around the strange heap
and asked,
"Who are you, out here in the wild?"
"I am a renunciate,
content to live like the grass.
After my neighbor's death, I closed my shop.
I gave up associating with every human being
that came along, and now I'm trying to be a friend
of the One. I saw that my jaw
would eventually be bound in the shroud,
so I figured it was best to use it less now.
You birds wear beautiful green robes
with gold embroidery, but at the end
you too will be wrapped in unsewn cloth."
All faces turn back into dirt.
The moist-dry, hot-cold parts
rejoin their kinfolk, and our spirits
receive a letter from the world
of pure intelligence. It says,
"So your five-day buddies left you!
Learn who your true friends are."
Some children, when they're playing with strangers,
get so hot and preoccupied with the game,
that they take off their shirts. Night comes,
and their clothes are gone, stolen.
It's impossible to play in the dark,
and now they're afraid to go home.
You've heard the line,
This present life is a play.
You've thrown off your clothes in the fun of living.
They floated away in the wind,
and now you're scared.
While it's still day, I've realized
that men are thieves, and that most of life
is wasted, half in looking for a lover,
and half in worrying over the plots
of our enemies. The former desiring
carries off our cloaks, and the latter
anxiety takes our caps.
Yet we remain
completely and obliviously absorbed
in our play. It's getting dark.
Death is near. Leave the game.
Saddle the horse of remorse
and catch up with the thief.
Get your clothes back. That confession-horse
is the speediest there is.
But keep it tied safely
when you're with the thief.
A certain man on this way to the village
has a ram that he leads along behind him.
A thief sneaks up and cuts the halter rope.
Finally the man notices and runs left and right
looking for the lost ram.
He sees the thief
beside a well, though he doesn't know
that it's the thief. The ram is elsewhere.
He goes to ask if he's seen a loose ram.
The thief is kneeling by the well crying.
"What's the matter?"
"My purse has fallen in.
If you can help me get it out, I'll give you
a fifth of everything in it. You could soon have
one-fifth of a hundred gold dinars
in your hand!"
The man thinks, "That's enough
to buy ten rams! One door is shut,
and God opens ten new doors."
He slips out of his clothes and climbs down
into the well, where there is nothing, of course,
and the thief carries away his clothes.
Oh, it takes a prudent man
to make it into the village!
When one loss causes a greedy panic,
then more losses are liable to come.
Imposters appear in many disguises.
Stay in your refuge with God,
and they won't deceive you.
-- Mathnawi VI: 435-477
Poetic version by Coleman Barks
"Feeling the Shoulder of the Lion,"
Threshold Books, 1991
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I don't often comment on poems posted, especially if it's a complaint. Usually, if I have a complaint, I won't post it.
This poem speaks to me in so many ways. I was nodding all the while through until the end, and the substance was so worthwhile I posted it, even though the last line left me empty.
"Refuge in God" ... what is it? It's certainly the main reason I'm not Christian, and never could be -- this idea that all one needs to do is "believe" and then take comfort. That has never been acceptable to me. Phrases come to mind, like "the opiate of the masses", this idea that everything is "all-right", so long as one believes. Come now, I say, far more Work is required than that. And who in the world would depend on the desert god to save them?
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I was thinking on that per Michael's recent post in Restless Soma today, if you drop by and see it. He spoke of something similar about beliefs, and work, at least I think so, in the same vein.
I think definitely more work is involved. But Im careful blaming even the 'desert god,' because that is more interpretation of people, creating god. Technically, we could say rumi was speaking of the same god, but in a totally different manner, the Beloved. Not the punishing god of hellfire and brimstone.
Still though what is this God and what is the work involved? Where is the fine line of what 'we've' created as beliefs, and what is actual? That I think can only be answered by going 'within' and going in deep, really deep within us, in areas which are sometimes even dangerous to go, only because it involves such a psychological trip for us, to go beyond the boundaries we have set for us, our comfort zones, simply put.
Buddha was silent on the issue of God and my own belief is the reason he was, was he knew what people would do to the path he outlined if he spoke on the matter. Not that he didnt believe, that was far too foolish. But that if he spoke, how would people twist his words? What would they create - out of their ignorance? So he didnt, thats what I believe.
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I haven't been over to RS today, but will have a look later.
The "desert god".... the Sufi's may indeed see him a little differently -- as you say, it's "the Beloved": but I submit that the Sufi's are onto something more universal. I dare say that the Sufis' god is ultimately a different entity. (Though I know there would be much outrage and disagreement by the more scholarly Sufi's.)
This "desert god", or "spirit" -- whatever he is, he feels real to me, and he has his hooks into a large part of the world's population. Look at the main similarity between Islam and Christianity: their mission of evangelism, to convert the whole world to their beliefs. And thus ... the whole world either drowns or becomes a desert. Bloodbaths and nuclear war and mayhem. This "desert god" is no friend to our species -- he is not the Beloved. He seeks to turn the world into a desert, with no other spirits to challenge him.
Now you know my private little disease ... these religions are the enemy to humankind, and the ultimate goal is the destruction of humankind. Not even because it's efficient, or biologically expedient, but because Yahweh/Allah needs space .....
</paranoid ravings>
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I hear ya. But I still believe there is a two-way creation of gods. Yaweh I dont blame. No sense in blaming any god for what mankind did to him, and fed him.
Many have tried to 'steal' that god via Abraham's covenant, which is the tri-fold deal with christianity, islam, and judaism. I think the only thing that makes the god destructive is people, creating for themselves their religions in opposition of each other. It doesnt have to be this way, but people deep down 'want' the opposition (the ones who do), and feel that if the world simply converted to 'their religion' all would be well. That is stupid, and it is folly. This battle has gone on for hundreds of years, the same stupidity, and the only religions which do not proselytize, which do not seek to convert, are the ones which are non-agressive. Even the jews dont seek to convert. But they do seek to hold onto their god, I will say that.
I watched that movie Religiouses or whatever its called, by Bill Maher, and it showed a lot of fundamentalizm in religions. He showed many different views, but much ado of it of the fundamentalism i see more as a problem than religions, or even gods themselves. People could wise up and evolve if they wanted to, and 'see' that in truth, all religions to some degree are one, we're all striving for the same thing in some capacity, like we all want peace, we all would like maybe immortality (no one really wants to die), we all want to live on a globe of oneness and not separation. However, it doesnt help that these religions are antagonistic to each other, many of them, and esp the primary three when they're fundamental. i know it doesnt speak for all collectively, there are wise ones mixed in the loop in all of them. However, if someone feels the need to blow someone up at the Gaza strip and shit like that, something is wrong.
Im not sure if in my lifetime ill see the big three get it, and get along, and resolve their differences. I do not know. It would be nice but as they continue to struggle the way they do, I just hope they wont take us under in some big war. I dont want to live thru that, thats for damn sure. I can say tho, I still blame people and their ignorance more than the deity. People sometimes, believe what they want to believe and what suits them. you can select any religion and it reflects back to you. A christian can look in the bible and see good, or see reasons to blow someone up. The choice is theirs to see what they want to see.
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My sense is that yahweh/allah was not created -- but that surely all the energy fed into him strengthened him. That's the whole point of the "mission", in fact. Just my take..
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My sense is that yahweh/allah was not created -- but that surely all the energy fed into him strengthened him. That's the whole point of the "mission", in fact. Just my take..
Not created? Well, we have no evidence of Jews ever being slaves in Egypt, and when Moses and the people allegedly took the trek to their new home, 45 years in the desert, virtually no dead bodies and bones along the trail, and people would've had to have died on a 45 year long trek.
But they were in Babylon and they got some ideas from the Babylonian writings, such as the story of the flood, and the story of Genesis. How much was more inspired and created, and what is real? It is hard to say.
So I come to the conclusion, also with other evidence (that just being a fraction of it), Yaweh was created as a myth, however, he 'spread' via the middle east. Now, people may have encountered him, and seen power in the deity, that is very possible, and thats part of why they tried to hijack the deity for their own. It is something Ive thought on before. To claim him is to claim certain regions of the middle east. That is possible. He may have really hooked an actual Moses, and then an actual Muhammad in the fray. And there may have been a Jesus too. However, in truth, we cannot say for certain that these people existed. We cannot say Muhammad went to the dome of the rock and just, disappeared, stuff like that. Or jesus was lifted by angels. Or moses's body was fought over. But anyway, rambling about that, what if all of it was just folks who wrote things down for their own reasons, to be able to sway others into believing a certain way? All had to know religion and fearing a deity was a very powerful 'tool' and way to control people as well, a quick way to conformity. Get them to believe first in a rather wrathful deity, worship it, and tell some stories with supernatural twists involved so they would conform. Is that more possible than his actual existence?
I dont know. I dont deny a god but lets say, the attributes of this particular one I feel were more created via myths for ulterior purposes.
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I agree with you that it's a lot of myth for ulterior purpose.
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Right. And definitely with Jesus when the church hijacked him from the new christians, and made it into the religion of Rome, it became something else. It was a small sect of folks being fed to lions for joy, virtually underground til Constantine. And then the dream with the cross, some say it was an ankh he saw, not the christian one. Either way, Ive wondered if its really so on his deathbed he really did renounce paganism or they just said he did. Then, there were other 'messiahs' such as Mithras who were up in the running for the new religion, and Jesus and christianity was picked. Then everyone knows now that much ado of Jesus was changed. The book was changed into a virgin birth, and then his birthday Dec 25th. Raising from the dead in three days. So, could it be there is another actual story of events which took place? But now we'll never know? Or do the gnostics have more of a truer interpretation?
So now as it stands it doesnt matter, what has happened is we have what - almost three billion folks who believe a certain way on the globe, or more, I dont know. And, its a boiling pot of conflict, which one day could potentially boil over due to myths. And ignoring the obvious which is, really, we're all one, interdependent on each other, and if we dont get over our own stupidity fast, and stop allowing old myths penetrate our common sense it can be our doom.
My own personal belief which I dont always air is that there is only One God with countless attributes, yet is also, a God of no attributes of all. The Great Void, the Great Nothing. Who, is beneath all of this shit, yet operates as a mirror. You look, and you see what you want to see, your own face. Can do that. You want to see a wrathful deity, that is what you'll get. You want to see a compassionate deity who loves all? That is what you'll get. And then, the one you project onto others, one of fear or one of love, the one you tell others who exists, the one you either try to convince others about, thats the one you'll deal with later on. You may spend your afterlife with the deity of your mind, with all the attributes you assigned that deity later on.
my two cents
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"There is only God."
Deepak Chopra
8)
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"There is only God."
Deepak Chopra
8)
And I was watching Gandhi last night and he was saying to the Hindus and Indians that we're all children of God too. Not much different sentiments. There is, and can be, oneness in multiplicity and lets face it, we cant know 'all' and everything unless we're uber enlightened, but we can know enough to say what god cant be, and thats a child on the playground of the planet actually wanting to create conflict.
However, people, can do this. My god is bigger than your god or hes mine and who has the bigger spiritual dick and so forth. It is so stupid. No one owns God at all. But many try to own by saying say, theyve got a handle on what is 'truth' yet many have what was told to them from someone else ringing in their ears, and like vicki eluded to, lacked doing the 'work' which requires, doing all the inner work, and purification, so one can actually get to the 'god within us.'
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and...
(Weird how my Twitters are discussing this same thing tonight eh?)
"Truth is higher than any man-made religion! and the only way to access IT is to surrender"
Eddie Kowalczyk
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but we can know enough to say what god cant be
I do not believe there is anything that is not God, so how could there be something that God can't be? Even conflict, drama etc, is all God.
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and...
(Weird how my Twitters are discussing this same thing tonight eh?)
"Truth is higher than any man-made religion! and the only way to access IT is to surrender"
Eddie Kowalczyk
That is good synchronicity timing. I was thinking today about some hindu scripture about wanting truth more than wanting air, or something like that. Basically, eventually you want that more than anything. And, you have to be willing to toss away all that you believe, even that which you hold dear, to be able to do it. Then, go seek the truth. Its the only way. And on surrender, that is right. Surrendering that which holds the beliefs and wants to cling to the comfort of them in the first place. Because the majority could be 'wrong.' And also, you have to look at a group say, based on followers. For example, looking at the masses believing in myths which have been changed and grafted in 'this and that' countless times, while some saints came forth, they did it cause they went 'beyond the myth.' They went further than that. They got past all of the belief systems and went further to the spirit. At least, the true saints, which actually walked among us.
So truth has to always be valued first and foremost. Its a dangerous business to take any man-made religion, and subscribe to it blindly. For example, not to bash but, christianity isnt big on questioning, but buddhism says to question and encourage it. If, a religion is strong enough, it should allow for questioning. Be open to it. If, however, it is encouraging a close-mindness of its followers, where is the freedom in that?
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I do not believe there is anything that is not God, so how could there be something that God can't be? Even conflict, drama etc, is all God.
What about non-existent?
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'God' is a tricky word - I use it with great reluctance, as it has so many fixed interpretations.
the best one I like, is DJ's: 'God is the tablecloth.'
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'God' is a tricky word - I use it with great reluctance, as it has so many fixed interpretations.
the best one I like, is DJ's: 'God is the tablecloth.'
"Take refuge in the tablecloth."
:D I like it.
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'God' is a tricky word - I use it with great reluctance, as it has so many fixed interpretations.
the best one I like, is DJ's: 'God is the tablecloth.'
He said chili sauce, silly. :)
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I don't mind using the word internally, but I confess that when I do, it really does change the atmosphere and imagery - hard to avoid the picture of some old dude or some fantastic multi-armed character. I prefer something more uniquely personal, unfathomable and intimate.
Was in communication last night very intensely, and I had no need of a defined image - just a presence.
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'God' is a tricky word - I use it with great reluctance, as it has so many fixed interpretations.
the best one I like, is DJ's: 'God is the tablecloth.'
I agree!
In fact, I used to be an atheist until I hcanged my perception of the word 'god'.
;)
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'God' is a tricky word - I use it with great reluctance, as it has so many fixed interpretations.
the best one I like, is DJ's: 'God is the tablecloth.'
As a matter of fact "God" belongs to the Tonal.
Something old Don Juan also said. Because the table was Tonal - completely surrounded by Nagual.
Please, think about that for a while ...
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... and meanwhile the old Raven can reveal a "secret".
Toltecs says "The Lord" to what most people refer to as "God". The Lord is also used in Christianity all you of course very well know. The crux is that The Lord does only recognize the energy of Love and the like energies. So if we would communicate directly with the Lord we have to have Love, Abundance, Forgiveness, Compassion and other energies in our message.
Spirit is actually another significant facet of God. But the difference is that Spirit does not restrict its communication to the above. Spirit is a middle wo/man in that respect. Spirit is therefore in one way easier to connect with. It recognize anger, despair, sorrow etc.
But to make it even more complex, neither the Lord or Spirit is equal to Nagual. And still, all there is, is Nagual. While Tonal is Nagual manifested.
. .
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... and the old Raven can reveal a "secret".
Toltecs says "The Lord" to what most people refer to as "God". The Lord is also used in Christianity all you of course very well know. The crux is that The Lord does only recognize the energy of Love and the like energies. So if we would communicate directly with the Lord we have to have Love, Abundance, Forgiveness, Compassion and other energies in our message.
Spirit is actually another significant facet of God. But the difference is that Spirit does not restrict its communication to the above. Spirit is a middle wo/man in that respect. Spirit is therefore in one way easier to connect with. It recognize anger, despair, sorrow etc.
But to make it even more complex, neither the Lord or Spirit is equal to Nagual. And still, all there is, is Nagual. While Tonal is Nagual manifested.
. .
Tonal could be seen as form and Nagual the formless.
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Tonal could be seen as form and Nagual the formless.
Right, but even more sophisticated; Nagual is energy, waiting to manifest, while Tonal is form (of the same) manifested. Though Tonal contains certain parts of pure energy, that first description will do as a rough explanation.
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it is very hard to love something that is formless.
not sure what that says about us, or about love.
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it is very hard to love something that is formless.
not sure what that says about us, or about love.
What if that formless loves you back?
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it is very hard to love something that is formless.
not sure what that says about us, or about love.
Right, there you are. We are humans, we have form, and our dreams have form,therefore our life and desires are about form. And that is what challenges the warrior. To refine the form.
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Right, there you are. We are humans, we have form, and our dreams have form,therefore our life and desires are about form. And that is what challenges the warrior. To refine the form.
But like the buddhist say, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Its the same deal.
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I don't know the ultimate answer here. I've always worked with Spirit ... and by that I could mean a multiplicity of them, my own double, guides, god-essences (which are spirits, aren't they?), or the whisperings of the wind and the trees.
But it's intriguing that we're speaking of this, because I've been wanting to share an excerpt from something I read recently, to see what folks here made of it. Essentially, the writer here is saying that if one hangs out with spirits, then that will be the substance of one's afterlife, and that one will come short of the "highest realization" (which for him, a Hindu, is God.) (Hang with spirits -- die with spirits, he says.)
From What Becomes of the Soul After Death by Sri Swami Sivananda (http://www.dlshq.org/download/afterdeath.htm/)
Spiritualism, Chpt 7
/...../A man is sitting in his room. He is thinking of a difficult problem. He is alone in the room. The room is closed. He beholds his ‘double’ which is like him. This comes out of him, goes to the table, takes a piece of paper and pencil in hand, solves his problem and writes the answer on the paper. This ‘double’ is the astral self of the man which can live independent of the gross physical body. Such instances are recorded in the Psychical Research Society of Europe and America. This clearly proves that there is a soul which is entirely distinct from the gross physical body.
After death the individual soul takes all his desires with it and it creates the objects of enjoyment by mere thinking. If it thinks of orange, the orange is there and it eats the orange. If it thinks of tea, tea is there and it drinks tea.
He who wants to drink wine in heaven and eat delicious fruits and to live with celestial damsels and move in celestial cars, goes to a plane of consciousness where he will project all these ideas and make his own heaven.
Modern spiritualism has given wonderful demonstrations regarding the existence of disembodied spirits who continue to live even after the dissolution of their gross physical bodies. This has opened the eyes of the rank-materialists of the West and the atheists.
Some good spirits possess the powers of fore-telling, clairvoyance and clairaudience. They have love and affection for their friends and relatives. They try to help them during their distress, misfortunes, dangers and calamities. They give a warning message to avert dangers.
The disembodied spirits remain earth-bound for some time after their death. They expect help from their relatives and friends. Prayers, Kirtan, Sraaddhas, charitable acts, good thoughts help the departed souls in getting release from the earth-bound conditions and rising higher and entering the world of Pitris in order to enjoy the fruits of their good deeds.
The spirits have no knowledge of the highest truth. They cannot help others in attaining Self-realisation. Some are foolish, deceitful and ignorant. These earth-bound spirits control the mediums and pretend to know everything regarding the planes beyond death. They speak falsehood. They put on the appearance of some other spirit and deceive the audience. The poor innocent mediums are not aware of the tricks played by their dishonest spirit-guides. The spiritualists waste their time, energy and money in the vain hope of obtaining the favour of those spirits and transcendental knowledge through them.
The last thoughts of the spiritualists will be thoughts of spirits only. They cannot have sublime thoughts of God. Hence they will enter the region of the spirits only. Communication with the spirits will mar their onward march to higher blissful regions and make them earth-bound. Therefore, give up the idle curiosity of talking to the dead on everything regarding the spirit-world. You will not gain anything tangible and substantial. You will disturb their peace.
No one should allow himself to become a medium. The mediums have lost the power of self-control. Their vital energy, life-force and intellectual powers are used by the spirits which control them. The mediums do not gain any higher divine knowledge. These spirits are not angels as the spiritualists claim. They are really earth-bound spirits.
The spirits do portrait-painting and typing. Spirits materialise in the seance. They melt away in a mist-like white substance and disappear. You can hear the noise of the pencil during automatic slate writing. You may feel a gentle shock while the spirit writes on the slate. The spirits may place their hands upon you and catch hold of your shirt, tie, etc.
You create your destiny, your character, your future through your thoughts and deeds. There is no end of your experiences here and hereafter. You will continue to live and come back and be born again on this earth. Try to attain perfection and reach that state where there is no more birth, no more death, and no more disease, sorrow, tribulation or suffering. Meditate on the eternal Atman, thy innermost Self. Do not identify yourself with this perishable body, a combination of the five elements. Realise the Self and be free. Through knowledge of the Imperishable obtain perfect peace, eternal bliss, everlasting joy and immortality.
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I've been pondering the above. Sivananda is writing during the 1st half of the 20th century, when Spiritualism was having its heyday. (It fell into disrepute.) The ones I knew were always harping on "the highest", and had become a bit disenchanted with producing dead people for the broken-hearted. Long story short, it had become a bit of a "racket", and in seeking its survival, it really had to go in a different direction. So I understand his dismay, but I don't see how it is "impossible" that a spiritualist, or spiritist, could know God. The truth is that there is more to Spirit(s) than the disembodied departed.
At any rate, is this really an either/or scenario? one or the other -- spirit or God? I think Jahn's description leads us out of the contradiction...
... and meanwhile the old Raven can reveal a "secret".
Toltecs says "The Lord" to what most people refer to as "God". The Lord is also used in Christianity all you of course very well know. The crux is that The Lord does only recognize the energy of Love and the like energies. So if we would communicate directly with the Lord we have to have Love, Abundance, Forgiveness, Compassion and other energies in our message.
Spirit is actually another significant facet of God. But the difference is that Spirit does not restrict its communication to the above. Spirit is a middle wo/man in that respect. Spirit is therefore in one way easier to connect with. It recognize anger, despair, sorrow etc.
But to make it even more complex, neither the Lord or Spirit is equal to Nagual. And still, all there is, is Nagual. While Tonal is Nagual manifested.
. .
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Well some of it makes sense if they are still mingling with earth folks then they havent really moved on themselves have they?
One of the greatest tasks for us, when we also become disembodied is to 'move on.' Like, Ive also been thinking on the afterlife a bit lately. One of my deals in meditation, daily as well, is examining all my attachments, even kids, and detach bit by bit. Or the body. Detach bit by bit. Cause if we dont, we can end up earth bound.
And I dont know about you but I have no desire to come back. At all. This is what Buddha calls the realm of desire, and much of the 'pull' to this plane, is desire. All of life is based on desire and it has its good and bad involved in that.
Im aiming higher than that.
So I can see its a matter also of acquaintances. Why would I wish to acquaint myself with disembodied spirits who couldnt move on themselves? Who couldnt 'figure it out?' So to myself, makes sense what he says.
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I don't mind the spirits of dead people, and I don't mind the spirits of the land. But it is just as hard to find a spirit that can guide you to anything really significant, as it is to find a living person that can do the same.
Spirits of the land are more interesting though, as they have wild secrets. But in the end...
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I don't mind the spirits of dead people, and I don't mind the spirits of the land. But it is just as hard to find a spirit that can guide you to anything really significant, as it is to find a living person that can do the same.
Spirits of the land are more interesting though, as they have wild secrets. But in the end...
But in the end, what?
In the end they might lead you who knows where, maybe. Or, like some folks, they may get caught up in the obsession of the phenomenal, they forget what is important.
The author made a point, they're somewhat trapped spirits themselves, and we dont want to be trappped like them just the same. So mediumship isnt a good idea. One gives over control for them to come thru, there is a loss of control in that relationship, and for whatever reason those spirits thrive on that loss of control. They need it.
So I agree to some degree. One may encounter a spirit but the goal may be to coax them to 'move on' more than entertain them. Move on from whatever binds them to the earthly realm in the first place.
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But like the buddhist say, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Its the same deal.
Form is the manifestation of the energy from Spirit of the Nagual manifest .
To work with energy before it becomes manifest is what is called sorcery.
I know nothing about emptiness.
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I don't know the ultimate answer here. I've always worked with Spirit ... and by that I could mean a multiplicity of them, my own double, guides, god-essences (which are spirits, aren't they?), or the whisperings of the wind and the trees.
The spirits have no knowledge of the highest truth. They cannot help others in attaining Self-realisation. Some are foolish, deceitful and ignorant. No one should allow himself to become a medium. The mediums have lost the power of self-control. Their vital energy, life-force and intellectual powers are used by the spirits which control them. The mediums do not gain any higher divine knowledge. These spirits are not angels as the spiritualists claim. They are really earth-bound spirits. So I understand his dismay, but I don't see how it is "impossible" that a spiritualist, or spiritist, could know God. The truth is that there is more to Spirit(s) than the disembodied departed.
At any rate, is this really an either/or scenario? one or the other -- spirit or God? I think Jahn's description leads us out of the contradiction...
Do not confuse spirits from the astral plan with Spirit, or the Holy Ghost as the Christians use to call it.
To make it even more simple, God is "above", not "here" in the common sense ("our Father that are in heaven") while Spirit is down to Earth and very much "here", right before your nose, in the trees to your right etc. Therefore there are different levels of energy exchange. Both these aspects of the Creator are divine but the frequency differs significant. And in communication our energy must align to theirs, otherwise we get no connection or response.
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Do not confuse spirits from the astral plan with Spirit, or the Holy Ghost as the Christians use to call it.
To make it even more simple, God is "above", not "here" in the common sense ("our Father that are in heaven") while Spirit is down to Earth and very much "here", right before your nose, in the trees to your right etc. Therefore there are different levels of energy exchange. Both these aspects of the Creator are divine but the frequency differs significant. And in communication our energy must align to theirs, otherwise we get no connection or response.
The frequency make sense. Like that frequency which may be likened to an 'angel' would be very different than a spirit bound to another lower plane. And I agree, the spirit that is holy is everywhere. That seems to be the true message that Jesus was trying to express (which is in scriptures when not interpreted wrongly), like the story of the Pentacost.
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... I have no desire to come back. At all.
Problem with having no desire to come back at all, is that you then have desire to not come back. Tricky thing desire is; language too.
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Problem with having no desire to come back at all, is that you then have desire to not come back. Tricky thing desire is; language too.
Desire is the trickiest thing about this realm. We exist in the realm of desire. Its why buddhism tries to do away with desire as a whole. However, how does one 'not' desire nirvana? Or desire to be free of suffering? So its one of those areas which has to be meditated on. Best I can say is, I have no desire to come back 'here.' Now, where that will take me is unknown, but mainly to be free of the wheel and unbound is what I want.
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Do not confuse spirits from the astral plan with Spirit, or the Holy Ghost as the Christians use to call it.
To make it even more simple, God is "above", not "here" in the common sense ("our Father that are in heaven") while Spirit is down to Earth and very much "here", right before your nose, in the trees to your right etc. Therefore there are different levels of energy exchange. Both these aspects of the Creator are divine but the frequency differs significant. And in communication our energy must align to theirs, otherwise we get no connection or response.
I always did things the hard way, and still have no choice but to do them this way, as my choices have borne definite cloth-cutting consequences and circumstance.
To make a long story short, and it's not so easy to articulate, here's how I did them: all things at once, to the best of my abilities and resources. There were no "guides" except my own inner voices and gut -- I did the best I could with what was presented to me. The concept I've drawn from all along is that "God" is both within and without. I Worked on the outer and the inner simultaneously -- on the higher and the lower -- on the spiritual and the physical. It was all one. The blades of grass, my beads of sweat: all "God".
I made some errors along the way, and my physical is lagging behind, and that is the crossroads I currently inhabit. I don't think I could have done things any differently than I did them, though -- I was, after all, on my own and making it up as I went along, 30-35 years ago. Any "book knowledge" came long after-the-fact. Would I recommend my way to my daughter? God no! But the truth will always be, that provided structure or not, "knowledge" or not, people will still do the best they can do, per their travels. I believe there's also a bit of destiny thrown therein.
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I always did things the hard way, and still have no choice but to do them this way, as my choices have borne definite cloth-cutting consequences and circumstance.
To make a long story short, and it's not so easy to articulate, here's how I did them: all things at once, to the best of my abilities and resources. There were no "guides" except my own inner voices and gut -- I did the best I could with what was presented to me. The concept I've drawn from all along is that "God" is both within and without. I Worked on the outer and the inner simultaneously -- on the higher and the lower -- on the spiritual and the physical. It was all one. The blades of grass, my beads of sweat: all "God".
And ...? I do not really see your conclusion. The "God" concept disturb us all, travelers of the infinite. But I know that you of all seekers has plenty of experience with the lower spirit astral. And that you, as we all, had to rely on yourself in this journey.
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And ...? I do not really see your conclusion.
Apropos the discussion, my point was that I could not see "God" as something "out there", but something living and breathing in my very pores -- as well as an inhabitant of that thing we think of as "heaven". .
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Couldnt we also say God is the infinite?
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Apropos the discussion, my point was that I could not see "God" as something "out there", but something living and breathing in my very pores -- as well as an inhabitant of that thing we think of as "heaven". .
But I'm the first to admit that had I designed my educational program myself, I would have come to certain conclusions and experiences in a more orderly way. By that, I could mean a more linear way, I'm not sure. But it would have been so much easier to do things step by step --- reaching in the end -- God.
It didn't happen that way for me, though. Couldn't possibly undo it now. It really was my nature. Even in college, I signed up for the senior-level classes before I did the introductory ones.
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But I'm the first to admit that had I designed my educational program myself,
I can relate to that. :D
I find it hard to express to others what "S(s)pirit(s) and/or God means to me - so most often, I don't. To myself, it's not a problem as it's kind of 'sensory' like the difference between different textures or colours, or sounds. Probably is like that for most of us anyway..
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Strangely, I find the idea of God on my mind 24/7. It is something which doesnt really 'leave' and i dont know if its an innate thing, or its just me and the way Im built. But I dont claim to - and definitely cannot - define God whatsoever. I think God is beyond definitions, even our ideas.
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I should clarify on that. I said God I feel is beyond ideas but that there is an "Idea of God" on mind at all times. I know however, I, little me, is a faulty creature. So God is still the chili sauce on my tonal table, and Im bound to not be able to get thru to the whole of the matter. Its at least, not possible for little me to penetrate that deal. Now, is it beyond God? I highly doubt it. I figure, if Im meant to 'solve' that great mystery, then I will. In the meantime, I wade through the spiritual path like any other, not claiming to know it all cause I cannot. There is simply too much involved in Nagual land, and to explore, to be able to figure it all out.
Tho sure, I still keep trying anyway.
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Couldnt we also say God is the infinite?
As I said before God is in Toltec lore referred to as the Lord, but also as the Dreamer. The Dreamer that dreams many life times . This in contrast to The Spirit, that does not dream any life at all, but is there all the time. It is no idea to making this too difficult, we only need to recognize our Divine origin and that we can establish a relation to Spirit right here and now, a relation that has a straight communication from start.
But much of New Age, either direct their attention to God, the Lord, and the ultimate divine in our tonal or they put all attention to The Spirit. While Wicca goes another step down to gods and local and astral spirits.
This is of course only my personal beliefs.
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I should clarify on that. I said God I feel is beyond ideas but that there is an "Idea of God" on mind at all times. I know however, I, little me, is a faulty creature. So God is still the chili sauce on my tonal table, and Im bound to not be able to get thru to the whole of the matter. Its at least, not possible for little me to penetrate that deal. Now, is it beyond God? I highly doubt it. I figure, if Im meant to 'solve' that great mystery, then I will. In the meantime, I wade through the spiritual path like any other, not claiming to know it all cause I cannot. There is simply too much involved in Nagual land, and to explore, to be able to figure it all out.
Tho sure, I still keep trying anyway.
There is a few guidelines about our path that is good to know.
First - we never get a problem given that we cannot solve.
Second - We are all divine beings that can claim our full potential in this lifetime.
Third - We are not here to "understand" we are here to experience the beauty of the Creation and to manifest more of it.
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I can relate to that. :D
I find it hard to express to others what "S(s)pirit(s) and/or God means to me - so most often, I don't. To myself, it's not a problem as it's kind of 'sensory' like the difference between different textures or colours, or sounds. Probably is like that for most of us anyway..
"Sensory" is a very fitting word!
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There is a few guidelines about our path that is good to know.
First - we never get a problem given that we cannot solve.
Second - We are all divine beings that can claim our full potential in this lifetime.
Third - We are not here to "understand" we are here to experience the beauty of the Creation and to manifest more of it.
Yeah but we're also here to experience the other side of beauty too, the yuckier side of things. The destructive side. Order and chaos both.
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As I said before God is in Toltec lore referred to as the Lord, but also as the Dreamer. The Dreamer that dreams many life times . This in contrast to The Spirit, that does not dream any life at all, but is there all the time. It is no idea to making this too difficult, we only need to recognize our Divine origin and that we can establish a relation to Spirit right here and now, a relation that has a straight communication from start.
But much of New Age, either direct their attention to God, the Lord, and the ultimate divine in our tonal or they put all attention to The Spirit. While Wicca goes another step down to gods and local and astral spirits.
This is of course only my personal beliefs.
What do you think is the simplest way to recognizing our divine origin?
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As I said before God is in Toltec lore referred to as the Lord, but also as the Dreamer. The Dreamer that dreams many life times . This in contrast to The Spirit, that does not dream any life at all, but is there all the time. It is no idea to making this too difficult, we only need to recognize our Divine origin and that we can establish a relation to Spirit right here and now, a relation that has a straight communication from start.
But much of New Age, either direct their attention to God, the Lord, and the ultimate divine in our tonal or they put all attention to The Spirit. While Wicca goes another step down to gods and local and astral spirits.
Well, I can't claim a connection to either "New Age" or "Wicca". What molded me most were a few years of experiences in the woods by a creek, alone and isolated, and if any zeitgeist had a hand in the thing, I was the last to know.
That's interesting, Jahn, about Spirit not being a Dreamer ... am contemplating.
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What do you think is the simplest way to recognizing our divine origin?
Such things is personal, it has to do with our personality.
Some general statements would be:
We shall not be afraid of or look down on things that bring us hardship. A warrior use everything in his/hers Tonal to propel him/her forward to growth and alignment. One piece of the puzzle per day.
It is also easier to swim in the same direction that the river flows. Our personal river flow in a direction that was setup by our Higher Self before we was born.
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I don't mind the spirits of dead people, and I don't mind the spirits of the land. But it is just as hard to find a spirit that can guide you to anything really significant, as it is to find a living person that can do the same.
Agree! That one has departed does not bestow wisdom.
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Such things is personal, it has to do with our personality.
Some general statements would be:
We shall not be afraid of or look down on things that bring us hardship. A warrior use everything in his/hers Tonal to propel him/her forward to growth and alignment. One piece of the puzzle per day.
Thats a good one. Its difficult for me cause Im not always a puzzle piece person, im an "I want it now!" person but I have to make that part of me relax. Still tho, a warrior doesnt feel they have time to lose, and I dont feel I have time to waste on the path. So because of this, it can be difficult for me to have patience, esp when i know that death can show up anytime and I have to be ready for it.
It is also easier to swim in the same direction that the river flows. Our personal river flow in a direction that was setup by our Higher Self before we was born.
Sounds very Tao, I know :)