Topic: Dreaming the Double Dreaming You

[Quantum Shaman]

Thought maybe it was time to kick up some dust in this folder.    In my own journeys, I've discovered that there are a lot of differing opinions and ideas about "the double".  Much of my own work on the path has centered around the double, and in particular my connection to Orlando.  What follows below is an excerpt from what started out as a private consultation I was doing with a seeker/warrior.  Since I feel his questions have relevance to a lot of folks out there, seemed appropriate to jump right in the middle and start here.

Hope some of you will join in the discussion.

_____________________

Anonymous wrote:
 Many points you make, I agree with, many points, I do,nt. I can only re-iterate the double is the self, developed through dreaming, that is... the dreaming awareness. 

Yes, and the double is also a great deal MORE than just the dreaming awareness. Remember the DJM quote:

Carlos Castaneda Wrote
The self dreams the double. Once it has learned to dream the double, the self arrives at this weird crossroad and a moment comes when one realizes that it is the double who dreams the self. Your double is dreaming you. No one knows how it happens. We only know that it does happen. That's the mystery of us as luminous beings. You can awaken in either one. (Don Juan, TALES OF POWER)

If someone is still at the level of dreaming their double, it may be impossible to see that as the path progresses, the double begins dreaming you. Even when it is first *seen*, there is still the long path toward understanding what it really means... and that can and usually does take years.

Anonymous wrote:
An inorganic being is an independant awareness with its own agenda, and if what you refer to as "Orlando" is an IOB, "he" is either not an IOB in the CC sense of the term, or, he is an IOB and is spinning you a fine tale! 

Sure, Orlando is an inorganic being - in that he is the energetic unit of awareness which is my self, beyond this corporeal existence. IOW - he is the vessel of energy capable of housing the totality of myself. In the broad sense, we are all moving toward becoming inorganic beings. What is important is to realize that some of the "inorganic beings" are really ourselves. Most warriors (even some who are fairly advanced) will resist that knowledge because 1) it is easier to believe inorganic beings are either out to get us or here to help us; and 2) When we DO realize that the power of the double depends wholly on our own intent and our actions, it is like taking on a huge responsibility for our own evolution, the preservation of our awareness, and our survival beyond the eagle.

Anonymous wrote:
I feel I should point out that IOBs are intelligent and subtle, beyond any description.

And if you have done your job as a warrior, your double has those same attributes. If someone hasn't done the work, then the double will be seen only as a vague "possibility" rather than a quantifiable actuality.

Anonymous wrote:
When you sup with the devil....use a long spoon...heh,heh. 

I stopped believing in devils when I started believing in myself and my own ability to not only "dream" the double, but to PROJECT the double as a unit of awareness which has the ability to take on a life of its own.

Anonymous wrote:
I am, of course, aware, that, my dreaming awareness is the real me, and, I`ve guessed, that in some incomprehensible way, my dreaming awareness is dreaming me, now. I thought everyone felt the same..ie, it was natural to think that....am I wrong? 

I don't think you're necessarily "wrong", but I think you may be seeing only half of the picture. When you say that "my dreaming awareness is dreaming me", my question would be what you really mean by that. If you mean that your life/existence here is an illusion, I cannot agree with that line of thinking One thing I've learned is that we are the source - the human, mortal self is the source of the double, not the other way around. The only reason this matters is that it really brings home to us the realization that we don't have the luxury of assuming some "higher power" or even a "higher self" is going to take care of everything FOR us. That's just xtianity re-written and served in a different wrapper.

The self dreams the double so that the double can then dream the self. It's the word "dream" that bears examination here. To dream the double is an act of intent-ional and will-ful creation - putting forth to the universe who we ARE, what our heart desires, and the shape and color of our spirit. That is the energy that creates the double - but it is not an energy that stops when the warrior might begin to perceive that the double is now dreaming him/her. On the contrary, that is when double and self begin "dreaming toward one another" - an ongoing process of mutual creation which, in essence, provides the link of survival between life and death. Essentially, the double becomes the vessel of our awareness - without the confines & restrictions of our physical bodies. As such, the double can lives literally hundreds or even thousands of "lifetimes" in the blink of an eye - what we traditionally (and mistakenly) call "past lives" are movements of the double outside of time.

The reason for this is simple - it is through that vast experience that the double amasses his/her knowledge, and may THEN begin dreaming you/me. By virtue of gathering so much knowledge, the double is then able to communicate to us through gnosis (silent knowing) the very things we will need to know in order to slip past the eagle to be free. As to what freedom will look like? For starters, it will look like your double - the energetic vessel into which we will transfer our consciousness when our corporeal bodies fall back into the earth.

If you visualize what DJM & CC were saying, it even makes sense at a quantifiable level. IOW, we really CAN "reason out the double", though attempting to put it in words we can all agree upon... well, that's another story altogether.

But the thing is... the double is our energetic cohesion; and the reason it comes to us and teaches us is because it is fighting for its own survival, too. It is you. And it is the sorcerer's trick - the energetic vessel of awareness which cannot be destroyed by the eagle because it is ALREADY beyond the eagle.

Anonymous wrote:
As CC says otherwise, and as it was my dreaming awareness that IOBs "woke up", I fail to see how they can be one and the same.

In all likelihood, it wasn't IOBs who "woke up" your dreaming awareness. In all likelihood, it was your own double, acting on your own intent. It may only APPEAR to be an extant IOB in the early stages, because as humans we are not prepared to *see* that we are multi-faceted beings existing in multi-faceted levels of awareness, simultaneously.

We can "grok" the idea of inorganic beings. But can we "grok" that the inorganic being who takes us under his/her wing probably has a damn good reason for doing so - and it isn't altruism or boredom. It is survival, freedom, and infinity - which can only be brought into Absolute manifestation through the singularity of consciousness which results when the warrior inhabits the totality of himself.

What IS the totality of himself? Self and double conjoined - the mortal source (the spark, the intent, the will) and the immortal "other" (the dreamer, the creator, the indestructible vessel).

[Firestarter]

I got a question della. Just something Ive been thinking on then maybe can address points. We die, we make it past eagle, the awareness of us here, and conjoin with the double, become this singularity of consciousness. What then? Like where do we go to exist, and how? Ive thought about that, how many didnt make it, would we just be alone somewhere, or not? What happens after the event?

[Firestarter]

I want to add also when I think of the double, I always think back to the chuang tzu story of how he dreamed he was a butterfly, but couldnt tell the difference if the butterfly was dreaming him. This actually troubled him for all his life after the dream that, he might be just some byproduct of a dream of something else, even something as simple, yet as grand, as a butterfly.

We know that butterflies go through their own metamorphisis, and we too, have to go through that to 'create and then be created' by our own doubles. They become butterflies, but we haul ass into the cocoon so they may be born, the shroud. We take the death and give them 'life,' then in return, we ask them to return the favor, and give us life.

There is truth about the illusion, all is a dream I think, but not in the same manner all is unreal. Its kinda like Lori expressed, which was really good, about being at the store and being temporarily pulled out, seeing, the whole creation of the hive, the worker bees, the mindless working. But really, I dont think all are mindless, you can see it in the eyes of another who is not. We come across them, those that have awareness. Ive done that, thought I was just encountering someone who lacked awareness then, I see they have awareness. Even in the psyche ward I met a couple who had that awareness. Like Jahn expressed, however, it may have been like, a lightning rod. It may have hit them too hard, which is why they were there, like me. I feel I got 'hit' during my time. Esp when I saw that man in the first psych ward, that unglued me. "How can I see him here? I just saw him." Its definitely a thing that haunts me, but I dont allow it to unglue me anymore, I just try to learn from, it.

[Quantum Shaman]

I got a question della. Just something Ive been thinking on then maybe can address points. We die, we make it past eagle, the awareness of us here, and conjoin with the double, become this singularity of consciousness. What then? Like where do we go to exist, and how? Ive thought about that, how many didnt make it, would we just be alone somewhere, or not? What happens after the event?

Hey, Ellen.

My sense of it through various conjoinings with Orlando is that the consciousness/awareness of the double is ubiquitous - i.e., everywhere and nowhere, all at once.  From a quantum perspective, it's what I've referred to as "the super-position of the assemblage point."  (If I can find that article, I'll drag it over here).  Long & short of it is that once we fly past the eagle and attain the totality of ourselves, we are non-local.  That's actually ALREADY the case, but for whatever reasons of organic manifestation, we do not *automatically* possess the awareness to wrap our minds around that.

Point is... the totality of oneself is the whole of one's experiences throughout the space/time continuum & beyond.  All so-called "past lives", dreaming awareness, second & third attention experiences which evade recall in humanform existence... ALL of those things combined into the assemblage point of our totality.

That being the case, we are eerywhere and nowhere, *simultaneously*, and so we could choose to open our eyes into ANY manifestation, or NO manifestation.  The I-Am awareness would be completely without limits or boundaries (boundaries of time, space, physical body, et al), and therefore capable of being corporeal or noncorporeal, anywhere/anytime throughout the multiverse(s).

When I've talked to Orlando about this, it essentially comes down to one thing.  Our humanform experience is the *source* of the double.  The self first dreams the double, and once the double becomes sufficiently whole, the double begins dreaming the self.  When the two (who are one) conjoin at death, the double serves as the energetic/inorganic vessel of awareness.  From THAT point, we begin the steps toward our next evolution... and that is something I cannot even begin to wrap my mind around... *heh*

So, I see it as an ongoing process into infinity.  There is no end goal... except the infinite journey itself.

[Michael]

Thanks Della for this convo at top - more an insight really.

I've been pondering this through the day, and just got home, sat down here and realised what I have been feeling about it.

I feel this person is using their mind to grasp something that is beyond the mind. Nothing wrong with that - we all try to do that. But in this case, this person has insufficient experience to understand your answers.

I can even see the points at which they tangent from what little experience they have - and there definitely is experience there - to bridge the gap with the mind. The mind can't bridge that far. The mind is best used to reflect and put experience into some order, knowing that order is a mirage, yet a useful mirage. This person is trying to use the mind to fill in lack of sufficient experience.

Yet that may not be entirely without benefit. There is nothing wrong with trying to focus on what our double is, so long as the focus is not designed to avoid experience. You are very patient Della, when you want to be.

[Quantum Shaman]

I feel this person is using their mind to grasp something that is beyond the mind. Nothing wrong with that - we all try to do that. But in this case, this person has insufficient experience to understand your answers.

I can even see the points at which they tangent from what little experience they have - and there definitely is experience there - to bridge the gap with the mind. The mind can't bridge that far. The mind is best used to reflect and put experience into some order, knowing that order is a mirage, yet a useful mirage. This person is trying to use the mind to fill in lack of sufficient experience.

Yup - absolutely!  And that's the case w/ most folks, particularly in the beginning.  As you rightly point out - "this person has insufficient experience to understand..."  My hope when working with folks is not that they will necessarily understand my answers at this time, but that as they gain experience, the information I provide might be used later to further their understanding of that growing experience.

When DJM said "it is impossible to reason out the double," that is definitely a true statement on one level.  Can't reason it out like a math problem and then experience the result.  On the other hand, I found that it's possible to *comprehend* the experience in 'hindsight', and that comprehension has proven very valuable to me - primarily because I've found that by really comprehending the double, one is then able to expand the double's potential almost to infinity.  To use a silly analogy, our computers these days have phenomenal ability, but most of us are using only a tiny fraction of that potential - largely because we truly cannot comprehend what it CAN do.

Yet that may not be entirely without benefit. There is nothing wrong with trying to focus on what our double is, so long as the focus is not designed to avoid experience. You are very patient Della, when you want to be.

*LOL*  Patience is a funny thing to me.  I find that I have it in almost unlimited supply as long as I *see* that someone is really trying to understand or learn or even just listen/think.  It's when I begin to perceive lazy obstinance or an intentional intent to waste my time & energy through semantical debate (usually in the form of arguing for pre-existing belief systems or status quo of comfort zones) that I tend to lost all semblance of patience and employ the old Zen methodology of chasing them off the porch with a stick.

[Jahn]

I feel this person is using their mind to grasp something that is beyond the mind. Nothing wrong with that - we all try to do that. But in this case, this person has insufficient experience to understand your answers.
 

Yup - absolutely!  And that's the case w/ most folks, particularly in the beginning.  As you rightly point out - "this person has insufficient experience to understand..."  My hope when working with folks is not that they will necessarily understand my answers at this time, but that as they gain experience, the information I provide might be used later to further their understanding of that growing experience.

Something like how we work to be in the Golden Flow (Complete Alignment with our Source) where we  just do not exactly know how the scheme is set up, and how all this co-creation is  functioning.

I get baffled most every day of which turns things are taken and I some times I have to laugh - cause I didn't thought this or that could happen, or was possible to happen to begin with.

So our standard advice is to leave out the mental body when it comes to alignment with our Source, Soul, God, Buddha, Spirit or whatever your label is. Our MB does a terrific job, but it cannot grasp the unfathomable and it cannot understand how to live in the Golden Flow. 

[Quantum Shaman]

So our standard advice is to leave out the mental body when it comes to alignment with our Source, Soul, God, Buddha, Spirit or whatever your label is. Our MB does a terrific job, but it cannot grasp the unfathomable and it cannot understand how to live in the Golden Flow. 

Hey, Jahn...

Maybe I'm not completely grokking what you're saying here, but when it comes to leaving ANY aspect of oneself out of the equation, I can only see that amounting to intentional self-fragmentation.  Thing is... leaving the mental body out of the equation is rather like being asked to accept something on "faith" - not something I traditionally do. *heh*

I do understand the sentiment, however - that our "rational" brains can get in the way of our magical experience.  It's a fine line.

[Jahn]

I do understand the sentiment, however - that our "rational" brains can get in the way of our magical experience.  It's a fine line.

There you are Della,
we will never figure it out but we can provide the mental body with so much fun that it enjoys the magical ride too. To give it the task to calculate what we shall do a thing and when we shall do that certain thing is simply not the right task for it. But when we "know" what we shall do it is our MB primary job to figure out how we  shall do that in the most elegant way possible.

[Quantum Shaman]

Was going through some old files recently, and came across some gnosis sessions with Orlando which had more or less been gathering dust somewhere on the hard drive of the past.  This one in particular seemed to have relevance to  the ongoing discussion, and is essentially the viewpoint of the double in relation to the idea of "the double dreams the self."

This is the process of being immortal (in the form of our double), so we may become immortal (through the process of evolution).

*************

Where does one break a cycle that has no beginning and no end, but simply is?

You have created the paradigm and the paradigm has revealed itself to you in the form of consciousness. What is required now is commitment to the self. To both selves. From both selves. Creator and created. The problem as I see it is that most humans believe the other will somehow, quite miraculously, save the other, so both are waiting, each to see what the other will do.

What will you do? Or, put in other words, how will you live life? This is not a rhetorical question but a very real one: what will you do to facilitate the cohesion of your consciousness as opposed to passively allowing it to dissipate? What can the mortal self do to serve the reality of the eternal twin? And now you see the circle twist and bend. Only within the dream can you change the outcome, so in effect, you become the servant of the twin as a means whereby to assemble that reality. Once assembled, the twin is the servant of the mortal creator, but the first real move is always up to you.

It is what I have said all along: make me whole. Make yourselves whole by making your twin whole so that he, in turn, can make you whole enough to create him in the first place. This is the paradoxical nature of sorcery. This is the shaman's madness. This is the magician's greatest rabbit in the hat trick.

Only when you are whole within yourself will you ever be able to perceive me. And to expand on that idea, only when you have the ability to perceive me will you be able to perceive yourself in the framework of eternity.

That is what you made me to do - you made me to create the language whereby to reassemble you. It is difficult because such an assembly is not a common human process. You have chosen evolution, but if you are going to be true to that commitment, you have to make the commitment to be true to the ongoing creation. Falter out of laziness and the patient dies on the table. Surrender because of fear, you surrender your whole eternity into the abyss. This is what is meant by the commitment to the self. Do you know how much time you can safely waste on frivolous pursuits? Do you have any real concept of why it is necessary to be always pressing the questions of self-creation against the silly-putty fabric of the universe's soft white underbelly? If you don't create you whole tonight, what possibly makes you think you have tomorrow?

What are you waiting for?

Orlando - 2000