Author Topic: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being  (Read 257 times)

Offline Zamurito

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The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« on: October 24, 2007, 12:12:52 PM »
Yesterday I was reading a post here by Joshua, and he mentioned the work by Ouspensky titled, In Search of the Miraculous.  I've owned this book for several years, but have yet to read it.

This morning as I prepared for work, I grabbed the book from the bookshelf and placed it on the kitchen counter so I would remember to read.  I picked the book up again, and flipped through the pages.  I landed on Chapter 4.  I decided to give it a quick read, then off to work. 

It must be the law of attraction for such a fine omen to land in my hands.  Listed below are some concepts that I've been working with for quite some time now.  This time, in these words listed below, the concepts he relates seemed to have really sunk in, as well as bypassed my 'reason.'  These words are felt by me, now.  Felt so much that I decided to type manually all that is listed below.

I'll admit it's a bit long, but well worth the time.  (Unless you really can't stand Gurdjieff or Ouspensky.)
_______________________________________________________________________

In almost every one of his lectures G. reverted to a theme which he evidently considered to be of the utmost importance but which was very difficult for many of us to assimilate.

"There are," he said, "two lines along which man's development pro­ceeds, the line of knowledge and the line of being. In right evolution the line of knowledge and the line of being develop simultaneously, parallel to, and helping one another. But if the line of knowledge gets too far ahead of the line of being, or if the line of being gets ahead of the line of knowledge, man's development goes wrong, and sooner or later it must come to a standstill.

"People understand what 'knowledge' means.  And they understand the possibility of different levels of knowledge.  They understand that knowledge may be lesser or greater, that is to say, of one quality or of another quality.  But they do not understand this in relation to 'being.'  'Being,' for them, means simply 'existence' to which is opposed just 'non-existence.'  They do not understand that being or existence may be of very different levels and categories.  Take for instance the being of a mineral and of a plant.  It is a different being.  The being of a plant and of an animal is again a different being.  The being of an animal and of a man is a different being.  But the being of two people can differ from one another more than the being of a mineral and of an animal.  This is exactly what people do not understand.  And they do not understand that knowledge depends on being.  Not only do they not understand this latter but they definitely do not wish to understand it.  And especially in Western culture it is considered that a man may possess great knowledge, for example he may be an able scientist, make discoveries, advance science, and at the same time he may be, and has the right to be, a petty, egoistic, caviling, mean, envious, vain, naive, and absent-minded man.  It seems to be considered here that a professor must always forget his umbrella everywhere.   

“And yet it is his being.  And people think that his knowledge does not depend on his being.  People of Western culture put great value on the level of a man’s knowledge but they do not value the level of a man’s being and are not ashamed of the low level of their own being.  They do not even understand what it means.  And they do not understand that a man’s knowledge depends on the level of his being.

“If knowledge gets far ahead of being, it becomes theoretical and abstract and inapplicable to life, or actually harmful, because instead of serving life and helping people the better to struggle with the difficulties they meet, it begins to complicate man’s life, brings new difficulties into it, new troubles and calamities which were not there before.

“The reason for this is that knowledge which is not in accordance with being cannot be large enough for, or sufficiently suited to, man’s real needs.  It will always be knowledge of one thing together with ignorance of another thing; knowledge of the detail without knowledge of the whole; knowledge of the form without a knowledge of the essence.

“Such preponderance of knowledge over being is observed in present-day culture.  The idea of the value and importance of the level of being is completely forgotten.  And it is forgotten that the level of knowledge is determined by the level of being.  Actually at a given level of being the possibilities of knowledge are limited and finite.  Within the limits of a given being the quality of knowledge cannot be changed, and the accumulation of information of one and the same nature, within already known limits, alone is possible.  A change in the nature of knowledge is possible only with a change in the nature of being.

“Taken in itself, a man’s being has many different sides.  The most characteristic feature of a modern man is the absence of unity in him and, further, the absence in him of even traces of those properties which he most likes to ascribe to himself, that is, ‘lucid consciousness,’ ‘free will,’ a ‘permanent ego or I,’ and the ‘ability to do.’  It may surprise you if I say that the chief feature of a modern man’s being which explains everything else that is lacking in him is sleep.

“A modern man lives in sleep, in sleep he is born and in sleep he dies.  About sleep, its significance and its role in life, we will speak later.  But at present just think of one thing, what knowledge can a sleeping man have?  And if you think about it and at the same time remember that sleep is the chief feature of our being, it will at once become clear to you that if a man really wants knowledge, he must first of all think about how to wake, that is, about how to change his being. 

“Exteriorly man’s being has many different sides:  activity or passivity; truthfulness or a tendency to lie; sincerity or insincerity; courage, cowardice; self-control, profligacy; irritability, egoism, readiness for self-sacrifice, pride, vanity, conceit, industry, laziness, morality, depravity; all these and much more besides make up the being of man.

“But all this is entirely mechanical in man.  If he lies it means that he cannot help lying.  If he tells the truth it means that he cannot help telling the truth, and so it is with everything.  Everything happens, a man can do nothing either in himself or outside himself.

“But of course there are limits and bounds.  Generally speaking, the being of a modern man is of very inferior quality.  But it can be such bad quality that no change is possible.  This must always be remembered.  People whose being can still be changed are very lucky.  But there are people who are definitely diseased, broken machines with whom nothing can be done.  And such people are in the majority.  If you think of this you will understand why only few can receive real knowledge.  Their being prevents it.

“Generally speaking, the balance between knowledge and being is even more important than a separate development of either one or the other.  And a separate development of knowledge or of being is not desirable in any way.  Although it is precisely this one-sided development that often seems particularly attractive to people.

“If knowledge outweighs being a man knows but has no power to do.  It is useless knowledge.  On the other hand if being outweighs knowledge a man has the power to do, but does not know, that is, he can do something but does not know what to do.  The being he has acquired becomes aimless and efforts made to attain it prove to be useless.

“In the history of humanity there are known many examples when entire civilizations have perished because knowledge outweighed being or being outweighed knowledge.”

“What are the results of the development of the line of knowledge without being, or the development of the line of being without knowledge?”  someone asked during a talk upon this subject.

“The development of the line of knowledge without the line of being gives a weak yogi,” said G., “that is to say, a man who knows a great deal but can do nothing, a man who does not understand” (he emphasized these words) “what he knows, a man without appreciation, that is, a man for whom there is no difference between one kind of knowledge and another.  And the development of the line of being without knowledge gives a stupid saint, that is, a man who can do a great deal but who does not know what to do or with what object; and if he does anything he acts in obedience to his subjective feelings which may lead him greatly astray and cause him to commit grave mistakes, that is, actually to do the opposite of what he wants.  In either case both the weak yogi and the stupid saint are brought to a standstill.  Neither the one nor the other can develop further.

“In order to understand this and, in general, the nature of knowledge and the nature of being, as well as their interrelation, it is necessary to understand the relation of knowledge and being to ‘understanding.’

Knowledge is one thing, understanding is another thing.

“People often confuse these concepts and do not clearly grasp what is the difference between them.

“Knowledge by itself does not give understanding.  Nor is understanding increased by an increase of knowledge alone.  Understanding depends upon the relation of knowledge to being.  Understanding is the resultant of knowledge and being.  And knowledge and being must not diverge too far, otherwise understanding will prove to be far removed from either.  At the same time the relation of knowledge to being does not change with a mere growth of knowledge.  It changes only when being grows simultaneously with knowledge.  In other words, understanding grows only with the growth of being.

“In ordinary thinking, people do not distinguish understanding from knowledge.  They think that great understanding depends on greater knowledge.  Therefore they accumulate knowledge, or that which they call knowledge, but they do not know how to accumulate understanding and do not bother about it.

“And yet a person accustomed to self-observation knows for certain that at different periods of his life he has understood one and the same idea, one and the same thought, in totally different ways.  It often seems strange to him that he could have understood so wrongly that which, in his opinion, he now understands rightly.  And he realizes, as the same time, that his knowledge has not changed, and that he knew as much about the given subject before as he knows now.  What, then, has changed?  His being has changed.  And once being has changed understanding must change also.

“The difference between knowledge and understanding becomes clear when we realize that knowledge may be the function of the one center.  Understanding, however, is the function of three centers.  Thus the thinking apparatus may know something.  But understanding appears only when a man feels and senses what is connected with it.

“We have spoken earlier about mechanicalness.  A man cannot say that he understands the idea of mechanicalness if he only knows about it with his mind.  He must feel it with his whole mass, with his whole being; then he will understand it.

“In the sphere of practical activity people know very well the difference between mere knowledge and understanding.  They realize that to know and to know how to do are two different things, and that knowing how to do is not created by knowledge alone.  But outside the sphere of practical activity people do not clearly understand what ‘understanding’ means.

“As a rule, when people realize that they do not understand a thing they try to find a name for what they do not ‘understand,’ and when they find a name they say they ‘understand.’  Unfortunately, people are usually satisfied with names.  A man who knows a great many names, that is, a great many words, is deemed to understand a great deal-again excepting, of course, any sphere of practical activity wherein his ignorance very soon becomes evident.

“One of the reasons for the divergence between the line of knowledge and the line of being in life, and the lack of understanding which is partly the cause and partly the effect of this divergence, is to be found in the language which people speak.  This language is full of wrong concepts, wrong classifications, wrong associations.  And the chief thing is that, owing to the essential characteristics of ordinary thinking, that is to say, to its vagueness and inaccuracy, every word can have thousands of different meanings according to the material the speaker has at his disposal and the complex of associations at work in him at the moment.  People do not clearly realize to what a degree their language is subjective, that is, what different things each of them says while using the same words.  They are not aware that each one of them speaks in a language of his own, understanding other people’s language either vaguely or not at all, and having no idea that each one of them speaks in a language unknown to him.  People have a very firm conviction, or belief, that they speak the same language, that they understand one another.

Actually this conviction has no foundation whatever.  The language in which they speak is adapted to practical life only.  People can communicate to one another information of a practical character, but as soon as they pass to a slightly more complex sphere they are immediately lost, and they cease to understand one another, although they are unconscious of it.  People imagine that they often, if not always, understand one another, or that they can, at any rate, understand one another if they try or want to; they imagine that they understand the authors of the books they read and that other people understand them.  This also is one of the illusions which people create for themselves and in the midst of which they live.  As a matter of fact, no one understands anyone else.  Two men can say the same thing with profound conviction but call it by different names, or argue endlessly together without suspecting that they are thinking exactly the same.  Or, vice versa, two men can say the same words and imagine that they agree with, and understand, one another, whereas they are actually saying absolutely different things and do not understand one another in the least. 

“If we take the simplest words that occur constantly in speech and endeavor to analyze the meaning given to them, we shall see at once that, at every moment of his life, every man puts into each word a special meaning which another man can never put into it or suspect.” 

In Search of the Miraculous
P.D. Ouspensky
Chapter 4 - partial

Thank you for your time   ;D

Zam I Am the GurdjieffCastanedianite   ::)






"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

Offline Michael

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Re: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2007, 09:49:55 PM »
yes this is classic Gurdjieff material - the distinction between knowledge and being, between personality and essence. The mechanical nature of our lives in sleep.

Many have had difficulty with these concepts, but generally I have found they make a lot more sense the more one acquires the qualities he advises. Then his statements make sense, only by way of comparison. Taken on their own, they do not appear realistic.

If you practice awareness presence, while you are in a peak of self-awareness, and walking for example through a supermarket. Look at the people around you. You will then see quite clearly they are sound asleep - tho to varying degrees, which is interesting in itself.

Once you lapse back into your own sleep, which due to your awareness exercises, is sufficiently alive enough to actually watch those around you again, you will see them more as individuals who are making and acting on their own series of complex choices. Get involved in a conversation, and you will appreciate that people are very active in a degree of free choice.

But then build up your own self-awareness again, the type of self-awareness that results in lucid dreaming, then on reflection of your fellow human and huwoman, you will see just how tunnelled they are in the grip of forces they have no power over.

Many people use his type of thinking to criticise academics - it has become a political manoeuvre to ridicule them, because they are a severe threat to politicians, as they use thinking instead of feeling to make judgements - that is in general. So it is important that their criticisms be countered, not by rational debate, which is not in a politician's interest, but by perpetuating the attitude that academics are off with the fairies. Then they can be dismissed with a sarcastic remark about them getting a real job... and everyone laughs.

Universities are full of people who's knowledge is beyond their being, because training in being is not taught at Universities. But don't make the mistake that all academics are like that - many of them have had to work extremely hard, and have strengthened their being through years of dedicated efforts, far beyond the average person.

Offline Zamurito

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Re: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2007, 11:07:19 AM »

yes this is classic Gurdjieff material - the distinction between knowledge and being, between personality and essence. The mechanical nature of our lives in sleep.

Many have had difficulty with these concepts, but generally I have found they make a lot more sense the more one acquires the qualities he advises. Then his statements make sense, only by way of comparison. Taken on their own, they do not appear realistic.

If you practice awareness presence, while you are in a peak of self-awareness, and walking for example through a supermarket. Look at the people around you. You will then see quite clearly they are sound asleep - tho to varying degrees, which is interesting in itself.

Once you lapse back into your own sleep, which due to your awareness exercises, is sufficiently alive enough to actually watch those around you again, you will see them more as individuals who are making and acting on their own series of complex choices. Get involved in a conversation, and you will appreciate that people are very active in a degree of free choice.

But then build up your own self-awareness again, the type of self-awareness that results in lucid dreaming, then on reflection of your fellow human and huwoman, you will see just how tunnelled they are in the grip of forces they have no power over.

Very much so, yes.

To break away from the mental masterbation for just a bit, you mention watching others.  I'd like to comment on the physical aspects of others (and myself) if I may. 

Besides the fact that many treat their physical bodies so poorly, posture and the 'robotical movement' amaze me as well.  Very few move from their 'one point,' or move with true purpose.  They almost seem like a weeble-wobble, about to tip over, and seldom with a purpose of really performing any action with unbending Intent. 

I suppose this well does stem from the mental state...if one has a weak Tonal, I suppose their movements and actions will reflect this. 

Reminds me of an article I picked up somewhere, that is incomplete and without credit.  It does seem to touch on this though...

Quote
No amount of energy work, breaking energy blockages, opening and balancing charkas, cleansing auras, etc. will bring someone into balance if they are unaware of the point at which their subtle and physical bodies are centered and balanced.  The vast majority of people balance themselves from a point just above their shoulders and they hang there like puppets.  Their physical body, its posture and the way it moves, reflects this condition.  Because the majority of people are centered just below their head, they tend to experience the world in an inordinately mental way.  Moreover, by being hung from the shoulders like a puppet, people become prone to many of the problems found in the physical body and the subtle energy system.
     Problems such as poor posture, chronic muscle tension which inhibits the flow of Prana through the subtle energy system, compressed and twisted spine, cramped body organs and poor circulation of the blood can be directly linked to being out of balance.  Being out of balance puts strain on the joints and ligaments, and it contributes to mental and physical fatigue.  Moreover, the process of integration is inhibited when a person is not properly balanced because the second attention, which is a function of the heart and Ajna center, is blocked.  Like many of the problems affecting people today, this loss of center, this lack of balance, is a disease of civilization.  In less technological times, people related to the world far differently.  They were far more centered.  However, in the modern world, the rational mind has become king.  By being centered in the shoulders and worshipping rationalism (consciousness), people have lost sight of their true center, their true point of balance.  If a person gets caught in the web of thoughts and achievements, forgetting that mind is rooted in the mental body and the mental body is anchored in the I AM, he will lose sight of his true self and will become ensnared in the endless game played by his consciousness and ego.  One way for a person to break through the blockages created by an ego trapped in consciousness is by finding his natural center – the center of the physical body as well as the center of the subtle bodies.  This center is called Hara.  It is a person’s physical center, but it is more.  Hara is an attitude, a way of being, it is the center from which a person moves and acts gracefully, from which a person does what is appropriate at the appropriate time.  It is the point of balance from which a person must flow if he hopes to remain centered in the I AM.  By being always centered in Hara, a person has access to the energy and consciousness of his subtle bodies which are their birthright.


I always enjoyed this picture to go with it as well   ;D

 
"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

erismoksha

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Re: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2007, 11:43:11 AM »
Z, looking at what you said about how people are poor with their bodies, I noticed the article you posted was about balancing chakras and dealing with leakage.

When you think about it, say in the states, physical fitness, for example, none is promoted in chakra balancing, unless its in yoga. Other martial arts will give some better techniques to deal with balancing the chi (or ki :) ), but physical fitness, for the most part, is predominantly approached for the purpose of vanity, firstly, then other issues such as for health and longevity. However, for purposes such as being more alert, aware, conscious, healthy, since much ado in the grand usa promotes escapism in its various forms, even physical fitness can promote this as well, and serve as an escape too.

We promote a lot of atheletics for our kids, or even dance and so forth (predominately female), which I wont say dance doesnt have spiritual elements, for it surely does, but its not taught. What is more taught is the moves, whatever line-ups for being in line and in form, preparation for stage and shows. However, the whole spiritual gain comes more from the inner, though better teachers may promote it - in various ways.

Quote
The vast majority of people balance themselves from a point just above their shoulders and they hang there like puppets.  Their physical body, its posture and the way it moves, reflects this condition.  Because the majority of people are centered just below their head, they tend to experience the world in an inordinately mental way.  Moreover, by being hung from the shoulders like a puppet, people become prone to many of the problems found in the physical body and the subtle energy system.

I wonder if some of this is also because many jobs are sit down nowadays, a lot of crouching goes on, say in pc monitors for example. Which can create stagnation, and also, less lower body exercise as well.


Quote
Moreover, the process of integration is inhibited when a person is not properly balanced because the second attention, which is a function of the heart and Ajna center, is blocked.  Like many of the problems affecting people today, this loss of center, this lack of balance, is a disease of civilization.

Id say more in the heart area. I would say there are many who are heavily focused on anja (even unknowingly), more for power issues, and so forth. But it can be a foreign territory.

Quote

 In less technological times, people related to the world far differently.  They were far more centered.

And I think they had no choice but to be - it was a requirement of survival. but the demands were different.

Quote

 However, in the modern world, the rational mind has become king.

Ehhhhhhh.... I would say escapism is more the trouble... rationalism isnt so bad, because we need some of it. I cant say rationalism is an extreme, I could say escapism is an extreme - somewhere in the middle the intuitive and the imagination could aid in balancing. However, I can agree the artistic is really getting cut 'out' more and more as something significant - which is a problem.

Quote

  By being centered in the shoulders and worshipping rationalism (consciousness), people have lost sight of their true center, their true point of balance.

Ehhhhhh, I dont think we worship consciousness at all. If anything, I would say the vast majority arent even conscious about consciousness! They're really not!

Quote

  If a person gets caught in the web of thoughts and achievements, forgetting that mind is rooted in the mental body and the mental body is anchored in the I AM, he will lose sight of his true self and will become ensnared in the endless game played by his consciousness and ego.

It wouldnt be 'consciousness and ego,' it would just be, ego.

Offline Zamurito

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Re: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2007, 11:47:54 AM »
Z, looking at what you said about how people are poor with their bodies, I noticed the article you posted was about balancing chakras and dealing with leakage.

Heh...

Yea, as I started out on one topic, I could 'feel' myself slipping away from it  ;)  I left it 'as is' though ;)

Thanks for the cosmic two by four upside the head and being perceptive   ;D

Zam
"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

erismoksha

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Re: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2007, 12:14:07 PM »
Heh...

Yea, as I started out on one topic, I could 'feel' myself slipping away from it  ;)  I left it 'as is' though ;)

Thanks for the cosmic two by four upside the head and being perceptive   ;D

Zam

LMAO! Well at least you know some of us read your shit!  :D :D :D

Offline daphne

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Re: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2007, 11:58:32 PM »
then on reflection of your fellow human and huwoman, you will see just how tunnelled they are in the grip of forces they have no power over.


so what does one do?
"The compulsion to possess and hold on to things is not unique. Everyone who wants to follow the warrior's path has to rid himself of this fixation in order not to focus our dreaming body on the weak face of the second attention." - The Eagle's Gift

Offline Michael

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Re: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2007, 12:52:37 AM »
i think they call it controlled folly

Offline Angela

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Re: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2007, 02:50:29 AM »

I always enjoyed this picture to go with it as well   ;D

I like it too...thanks!  :-*
"If you stop seeing the world in terms of what you like and dislike, and saw things for what they truly are, in themselves, you would have a great deal more peace in your life..."

Offline Jennifer-

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Re: The Line of Knowledge and the Line of Being
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2009, 11:53:27 PM »
yes this is classic Gurdjieff material - the distinction between knowledge and being, between personality and essence. The mechanical nature of our lives in sleep.

Many have had difficulty with these concepts, but generally I have found they make a lot more sense the more one acquires the qualities he advises. Then his statements make sense, only by way of comparison. Taken on their own, they do not appear realistic.

If you practice awareness presence, while you are in a peak of self-awareness, and walking for example through a supermarket. Look at the people around you. You will then see quite clearly they are sound asleep - tho to varying degrees, which is interesting in itself.

Once you lapse back into your own sleep, which due to your awareness exercises, is sufficiently alive enough to actually watch those around you again, you will see them more as individuals who are making and acting on their own series of complex choices. Get involved in a conversation, and you will appreciate that people are very active in a degree of free choice.

But then build up your own self-awareness again, the type of self-awareness that results in lucid dreaming, then on reflection of your fellow human and huwoman, you will see just how tunnelled they are in the grip of forces they have no power over.

Many people use his type of thinking to criticise academics - it has become a political manoeuvre to ridicule them, because they are a severe threat to politicians, as they use thinking instead of feeling to make judgements - that is in general. So it is important that their criticisms be countered, not by rational debate, which is not in a politician's interest, but by perpetuating the attitude that academics are off with the fairies. Then they can be dismissed with a sarcastic remark about them getting a real job... and everyone laughs.

Universities are full of people who's knowledge is beyond their being, because training in being is not taught at Universities. But don't make the mistake that all academics are like that - many of them have had to work extremely hard, and have strengthened their being through years of dedicated efforts, far beyond the average person.
Without constant complete silence meditation - samadi - we lose ourselves in the game.  MM

 

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