Topic: Chodpa of Dzogchen

[Josh]

In our lifetime it is important that we understand that everything is our experience.  There is nothing good or bad that is not connected with experience.  We should not be distracted by these experiences.  If we are practitioners, we see that good or bad does not matter, it is all experience.  We work with and use experience, and try to be in the state of knowledge or understanding.  Then everything becomes positive for our practice.

In Dzogchen we say that visions are the ornaments of the primordial state.  We can have good and bad visions as well as good and bad sensations.  As practitioners, however, we dont need to see it that way, and through using our experiences, everything can become the same taste.  In that way we overcome our tensions and problems.  These are very simple and essential practices in daily life.

In regard to chodpa, or conduct, in the Dzogchen context, it is necessary to understand that chodpa is not a teaching about a particular kind of conduct or a set of rules.  We dont say you should do this or that; this is related to the path of renunciation.  In Dzogchen we need to learn our responsibility - self-responsibility.  Someone is not coming to guide you; you guide yourself.  You dont need particular vows or rules, you control yourself.

- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

[Michael]

Its a very simple mater. Dzogchen is just another name for the oldest thing.

The question is not what we need for Dzogchen - that answer is nothing, because every possible 'construct' you can possibly imagine, every form of order or design, every expression of one card upon another, is what is keeping us from Dzogchen realisation.

Why is that? It's no big mystery. It's quite plain and simple - we have two sides of the brain.... you work it out.

The question rather, is what do we do with the ordered part?

What do we do when we have to look after the body, navigate this world from birth to death. That is the big question - what do we do when we come back from nirvana?

But there is still another question, and listen carefully to this one: is it perhaps possible to combine our Dzogchen and Chagchen, our primordial with our ordial, our capacity to see the world as it is before we flowered it up with our thoughts, and our capacity to think in profoundly clever and insightful ways?

You see there are a few issues dangled before us: death, being one of the best places to begin. Is it possible to build a ship that can sail around the mighty crags of The Gatway?

Picture a ship upon an ocean.

The problem with Dzogchen, is that it dismantles the importance of everything. Then we have to say, "How then do we act?" Because we have to act, or we die ... which is fine of course.

If nothing has significance or importance any more, how can we act with passion and vitality?

Simple, we choose an action, and act it out as if it did matter. We 'act', as if it were the most important thing on earth, throwing all our being behind it... while knowing full well...

What act do we choose? Now that is a good question. Well it doesn't matter - good or bad, healthy or destructive, kind or cruel - it can't really matter because we are only acting for the 'how' we act, not the 'why'.

But there is another factor which unavoidably creeps in. As we experience Dzogchen, even if only for fleeting moments - as we make our veil thin, we become highly sensitive. A consequence of this is that we seek beauty, because it's pleasurable. In a world of meaninglessness, we lean towards feelings which give us great pleasure. Not always of course - sometimes we have to follow a road through darkness, but left to our own devises there is a natural attraction to using our magical body to experience the thrill of beauty.

That is why you find most enlightened people in our history, using their active time to enhance the beauty and health of the world and the people around them. And if you look carefully you learn two things:

One is their interpretation of beauty.

Second, is the weirdest of things: how they strive for health and beauty with all their will and love, but somehow, when you look closely, you see they actually don't really care. You see it when they walk away after their time is done. This is so hard for people to grasp - surely if they care then they care?

Nope, they care but they don't care. And that is how they also feel about you also. Look carefully at this ... very carefully.

[Josh]

The problem with Dzogchen, is that it dismantles the importance of everything. Then we have to say, "How then do we act?" Because we have to act, or we die ... which is fine of course.

This is only a problem for those who are aligned to other methods.  To practice Dzogchen requires a certain nature, it is not for everyone.  It is a rare form of personal nature.  This does not mean it is superior, just that it is rare.  That is why there are practices of Sutra and Tantra as well.  Different people require different methods.  If it does not benefit the practice, then of course it cannot be important to practice.  If the questioning halts the practice, then the questioning has more importance than the practice.  If the questioning serves the practice, then it becomes both.  The indication of Dzogchen and its view is either strengthened or dismantled accordingly.  You do not ask a carpenter to pilot a submarine, if you want to build a house.  And you do not ask a submarine pilot to build you a house, if you wish to take an underwater mission.  Each nature serves its purpose accordingly.  Neither is superior to another, they simply have different purposes - and the importance of each purpose flows from its particular nature.

But there is another factor which unavoidably creeps in. As we experience Dzogchen, even if only for fleeting moments - as we make our veil thin, we become highly sensitive. A consequence of this is that we seek beauty, because it's pleasurable. In a world of meaninglessness, we lean towards feelings which give us great pleasure. Not always of course - sometimes we have to follow a road through darkness, but left to our own devises there is a natural attraction to using our magical body to experience the thrill of beauty.

To seek the polarization is to move away from Dzogchen into other paths, other methods.  There is nothing wrong with this, however it is not the practice of Dzogchen, where there is no exalted beauty that is above other beauties.  When one is practicing dzogchen, one sees the beauty in a rotting, maggot filled corpse - as well as the blissfully serene sunrise.  Everything is of the same taste, which is the base.  Samsara and nirvana are both ultimately meaningless as well as ultimately meaningful.  Descriptions at this level are not acceptable without actual transmission, which is the indication of that which is already present in the practitioner.  Without this realization, there is no description that will serve any purpose.  If your natural attraction pulls you elsewhere, your nature is probably not intended for Dzogchen.

This may be hard to grasp for some, but you cannot have all the cakes and eat them too.  Some are given to certain methods and others are given to other methods.  That which serves your nature in the most profound way - that is your TRUE path.  The true path is different for each person.

[Michael]

When one is practicing dzogchen, one sees the beauty in a rotting, maggot filled corpse - as well as the blissfully serene sunrise.  Everything is of the same taste, which is the base

Good stuff!

Now I am close to my point.

I am not just having a private conversation with Josh here. My words are directed at everyone. I encourage you all to engage with this Tibetan Buddhist approach, because out of all the major traditions, they are the only ones who still have a living connection.

I know the concepts and words are a bit weird, and I also know that to pursue their specific road, one has to dedicate to their mind (that being what it's not). But actually they are only speaking about the same essence of reality that confronts every being in the universe. So it is not too difficult to shift your AP into their window on truth - well, at least it is a very good exercise, for two reasons.

One to gain relief on the object enhances your chances.

Two, I have a powerful connection to this world that pre-dates my current life track.

There has been considerable material already posted to help get a lien on these ideas, and there will be more coming.

So I want to ask everyone now:

Is there a place for scorn in Dzogchen?

[Josh]

Yes, it is exceedingly useful to have an essential basis with a particular method - lest that method become nothing more than "spiritual materialism".  This does not mean that people cannot use various different methods, but that they need to recognize those methods which resonate with their particular nature at that time.  When we find those methods that resonate with our nature, we can practice in a living way - rather than simply researching data (which is usually more of a hindrance in itself).  In general, even if you could know them all - you cannot use all methods simultaneously - this would only serve a purpose for a being in which no method is needed in the first place.. as well as very little else, much less a physical or energetic form. 

When we look at something such as "scorn" from a dzogchen perspective, we see it as yet another color in the crayon box of emotion.  All colors have use at some time, in some way, for some picture.  Yet the principal of dzogchen is to recognize the canvas upon which the colors are manifest, as well as each color and form itself, as it arises from and returns to void.  The interrelationship between phenomena and void is the realm where all experience resides.  They serve each other intrinsically. 

This is the basis for the self-liberation of phenomena, which continuously occurs in the being established with dzogchen view.  All phenomena are in and of themselves already void, and require no effort to remain free as they are.  Everything which is present is used for the practice.  This is the gestation of what is called "crazy wisdom"*.  It is the wisdom born from living with no boundaries, in the midst of the self-liberation of all phenomena.

Inherent in dzogchen teachings is the principal of transmission - and as stated above - this is an indication of that base which is already present within the practitioner.  Is this base present within all peoples?  Yes, but only in latent form.  It must be realized by the practitioner themselves, before the transmission can occur.. however this realization is a naturally occurring thing for one who is inclined to practice dzogchen.  The transmission is the direct indication of reality by one who has become stable within the dzogchen view, to one who is not yet stable.  The transmission is not a gift of energy or an infusion of something (that is another thing altogether) - rather it is the direct indication of that reality in a complete way.  Is it an ordinary thing?  Not at all, but it must be understood that the lineage flows between those in whom this realized nature already resides.  Not everyone will receive transmission of dzogchen teachings, because not everyone will have the ripened nature available.  It is not a question of being superior or inferior, but rather having access to this latent nature which has become ripe.  Once the transmission or direct introduction occurs, this fruit is then recognized as the base - this is the path to establish the view.  Base, path, and fruit are the trinity of dzogchen principals.  The realization of the non-dual view is recognized in its totality, then the practice of remaining in the non-dual view becomes the method.  There is no renunciation of phenomena, no transformation of phenomena - rather there is self-liberation of phenomena, of and by itself.  The base and the path and the fruit are all connected, and essentially they are the same primordial reality.

* Crazy wisdom in Tibetan is yeshe chölwa. Yeshe means "wisdom," and chölwa, literally, is "gone wild." The closest translation for chölwa that we could come up with is "crazy," which creates some further understanding. In this case "crazy" goes along with "wisdom"; the two words work together well. So it is craziness gone wise rather than wisdom gone crazy.

[Jennifer-]

Quote
* Crazy wisdom in Tibetan is yeshe chölwa. Yeshe means "wisdom," and chölwa, literally, is "gone wild." The closest translation for chölwa that we could come up with is "crazy," which creates some further understanding. In this case "crazy" goes along with "wisdom"; the two words work together well. So it is craziness gone wise rather than wisdom gone crazy.

 

[tangerine dream]

Vicky,
I can not find the thread where we were discussing this, the wrestling with the choices, the rightness of when to 'interfere' and when to let it be...but remember the Ravens in my dream gave an answer similar to this:

So that nonhesitating light reflects choicelessly all the time; it shines brilliantly and constantly on things. Craziness means not discriminating and being without cowardice and paranoia. "Should I shine on this object, even though this other object is facing towards me?"—not at all. Whoever needs to be subjugated is subjugated, whoever needs to be—how does the line go? [Laughter] Does anybody remember that line? Maybe someone can read it out of the sadhana.

STUDENT: I think it's "He subdues what needs to be subdued, he destroys what needs to be destroyed, and he cares for whatever needs his care."

Thanks Josh

 

[nichi]

"He subdues what needs to be subdued, he destroys what needs to be destroyed, and he cares for whatever needs his care."

~This resonates. Thanks Lori and Josh!

[Firestarter]

To seek the polarization is to move away from Dzogchen into other paths, other methods.  There is nothing wrong with this, however it is not the practice of Dzogchen, where there is no exalted beauty that is above other beauties.  When one is practicing dzogchen, one sees the beauty in a rotting, maggot filled corpse - as well as the blissfully serene sunrise.  Everything is of the same taste, which is the base.  Samsara and nirvana are both ultimately meaningless as well as ultimately meaningful.  Descriptions at this level are not acceptable without actual transmission, which is the indication of that which is already present in the practitioner.  Without this realization, there is no description that will serve any purpose.  If your natural attraction pulls you elsewhere, your nature is probably not intended for Dzogchen.

This may be hard to grasp for some, but you cannot have all the cakes and eat them too.  Some are given to certain methods and others are given to other methods.  That which serves your nature in the most profound way - that is your TRUE path.  The true path is different for each person.

I dont know if 'sameness' is the best way to put it - a maggot and a person for example. But it all kinda leads there though, zen flesh, zen bones, and zen maggots. All beauty will be eaten by the maggots - or to spare being eaten can turn it all to ash. Ashes to ashes dust to dust - beauty is dust in the wind. Either way, we all end up the 'same' in that manner.