Topic: Who's Offended

[Michael]

"You're offended, that's your fault." So you have one asshole who likes to use this against people to disassociate himself from responsibility for their actions.

yes this is the nub of it - these ideas, esp toltec, are so often used against another, and to defend oneself against self-examination and self-change. Interestingly recently I heard a critique of Freud for introducing the concept of guilt avoidance - therapy to make us feel better and dispel our guilt, instead of looking at what we did wrong to feel guilty - ie taking self-responsibility.

As usual, and this is what I think Lori is saying, the difference lies in the person. Some will use anything to avoid the work on self - not just toltec, christ's words are also used this way - while others use whatever they find to change themselves.

Also this is a well know phase of development, where someone acquires all the ideas and words that are designed to assist growth, becomes an expert, and thus one's own worst enemy. Because all these tools can be picked up by the false mind to defend itself.

It is an old story - ideas and words are not enough. Without the impress of one who has succeeded in progressing along the path, the tools are worse that dead, they are dangerous, which is why in the past these things were kept secret.

It is, in the end, up to each of us to see through the false, and not associate. I have often tried to enlighten such people with words, and to my knowledge have never succeeded, because underneath, the intent is wrong.

What you say is true - there is nothing to be done, except avoid that mind, as it is infectious. But the tools, like this one, remain of immense value to one who is genuine, with appropriate guidance in how to use the tool.

[erik]

But what about the offender's responsibility, if they are an actual offender?

Responsibility is always 50-50. Whatever the crime or occasion.

[niamhspark]

Responsibility is always 50-50. Whatever the crime or occasion.

In all cases?

[erik]

In all cases?

Yes. There is always karma in action. It spans all lives and there always comes a time to pay the bill.

[Jahn]

Yes. There is always karma in action. It spans all lives and there always comes a time to pay the bill.

I have few ideas about karma. Maybe Mea Culpa suites me better.

That means we work with an accumulated pie of Karma. It is not necessary our souls that have created this and that that we have to deal with. (I open another thread for this discussion).

[erik]

Juan, individual or collective, but we have undertaken to work through the karma. Hence it is always 50-50 responsibility whatever happens to us.

We select our parents, we select our worst torturers.
We select all these punches and bruises and pains that are necessary for waking up in this life.

[niamhspark]

I know what you're talking about, but I can't accept that definition. For example (here's my skeptical mind again, Michael), say you have a child born to abusive parents. Some say they were born to those parents because of past karma. They may have been an abusive person in the past. This isn't based on reality. This is taking the concept of karma, and trying to mold/shape it into the person's experiences. People dont wish to let go of 'that' particular karma idea. Others say something different. They say we may choose our circumstances, our parents, our place of birth. But how can we know for sure, this is so? What if it's simple, that some can choose, or some do choose, and others may not? What if some are born randomly. What if we're all born randomly? What if?

In cases like offender/offendee, I see it more like this. We may have something inside us which gravitates, pulls, an offender to us. We may not be able to help this, s/a in extreme violent cases, where simply being a woman, or a young man, or five feet tall may isolate us, to the point some offender may zone in on someone, for various reasons.

For cases which aren't as traumatic, more mainstream, we have something in us which may place us into situations such as these, we may encounter people who are attracted to whatever in us, which is weak, vunerable, etc. A person is an easy target to "offend" in various ways, shake them up, another zones in on them because they can manipulate this vunerability. Another is much stronger, and another type of offender wants to break them down, sees them as a challenge. They zone in on them and try to find their weakness too, or be stronger, break down their strength. And very common, a person has something in them, which may remind them of something in themselves, they don't like. They zone in on this person, attacking them in various ways, because in a way, they're attacking themselves. And so on.

And we can use these interactions in viewing what in us is being offended. We can probe further behind blaming the person, and find what in us which is weak. Sure, I can agree with this. But there is still an issue of absolutes. Born of "always" or "all cases" are exceptions to the rule. They're is always an exception somewhere.

[Taimi]

say you have a child born to abusive parents. Some say they were born to those parents because of past karma. They may have been an abusive person in the past. This isn't based on reality. This is taking the concept of karma, and trying to mold/shape it into the person's experiences. People dont wish to let go of 'that' particular karma idea. Others say something different. They say we may choose our circumstances, our parents, our place of birth. But how can we know for sure, this is so? What if it's simple, that some can choose, or some do choose, and others may not? What if some are born randomly. What if we're all born randomly? What if?

My parents weren't exactly loving, quite destructive actually. This is how i see the situation: this has all been just good for gaining somekind of detachment of the usual world which is useful for this journey to freedom.
Who are these people who don't wish to let go of that karma idea?
I suppose you won't know anything for sure if you haven't proved it with your own seeing.
I don't understand why are you making up these supposititous situations.

[daphne]

I tend to look to "offended" in different angles.
If I 'feel' offended, I will look to myself to see why - that 'feeling' is totally mine.
If I 'think' offended, I will also look to myself. Usually the feeling comes a moment before the thought. I will 'feel' something that i then translate mentally to "offended". All that is in that process belongs to me, since I am the one feeling and thinking.
If someone hits me physically, I do not immediately feel offended. My first immediate feeling is pain. From that feeling, I may or may not follow through to "offended".
If someone I care about hits me, I feel hurt, not offended. If someone I don't care about hits me, I feel angry.

Offended for me is rooted in pride. On a mental level, if what happens results in my feeling offended, I can usually trace it to self-importance and lack of recognition.
Those are 2 very interesting aspects to stalk.
If the feeling offensive is more emotional, I can usually trace it to self-pity.

While I do see that many terms are used not only by 'toltecs' as a defense/attack one against an-other, it does not really matter - what matters to me is what i do about that, and that then brings in personal responsibility.
Many things are connected one to the other, and it is in following the connections that I can trace back to the source and reclaim there.

This does not take away the 'other's' responsibility in the interaction. Just that it is not my responsibility as to the why and wherefore of the other. The other has been rather like a catalyst to show me myself. i can do nothing about an-other, but i can do everything about myself.
If I can get beyond my body's reaction, I then have a choice in how to respond. And the choices are many!

[daphne]

I am not sure what the idea of karma has to do with feeling offended or not, other than perhaps in the sense of past expereinces and expectations?
Perhaps there is a link I am not seeing?
Whatever the expereince, whether offended or not, it is happening now, in the present, and it is in the present that we have our choice.
Feeling offended or not is a bodyily reaction first, then comes the emotions and thoughts associated with it - or at least.. that is how I have expereinced it.

[erik]

I'm thinking on this along the same lines, Daphne.
Regardless of theories, what matters at the end of the day, is what we do about our daily situations.
The desired end-state is clear - there can be nothing in our whole beingness that can be hooked on.
As to the connection of karma to responsibility for our situations and feeling offended - I brought it in to show that 50% of responsibility is always ours.
I can imagine that the person who has evolved past his little 'me' always takes on more than 50% - they consciously burn collective karma in every second of their existence.

[niamhspark]

My parents weren't exactly loving, quite destructive actually. This is how i see the situation: this has all been just good for gaining somekind of detachment of the usual world which is useful for this journey to freedom.
Who are these people who don't wish to let go of that karma idea?
I suppose you won't know anything for sure if you haven't proved it with your own seeing.
I don't understand why are you making up these supposititous situations.

I'm using examples in comparison/contrast to certain beliefs, principles we may hold. Buddha said question everything. So we don't adopt beliefs or principles haphazardly.

The examples are things I've heard manytimes before. A child is born to abusive parents because in a past life they abused people? I can't buy this. How does this deal with whatever healing issues they may need?  That point came up cause Juhani brought up karma. It's something I have had difficulty wrapping my mind around, and maybe its cause my mind rejects it. Maybe cause it doesn't fit.

[niamhspark]

I'm thinking on this along the same lines, Daphne.
Regardless of theories, what matters at the end of the day, is what we do about our daily situations.
The desired end-state is clear - there can be nothing in our whole beingness that can be hooked on.
As to the connection of karma to responsibility for our situations and feeling offended - I brought it in to show that 50% of responsibility is always ours.
I can imagine that the person who has evolved past his little 'me' always takes on more than 50% - they consciously burn collective karma in every second of their existence.

Why 50%? Why not 70%? Ahhhh, does anyone understand where I'm coming from? Sometimes we adopt beliefs, and don't think through them, why we believe them.

Maybe I'm questioning some of the accountability issue. Then the absolutes on this. I know its a principle which is rooted in warriorship, but still. I think some of the offended issue is misunderstood by many. It's a principle to live by, but it's not perfect, not meant for all cases, not an absolute. It can't be. Don Juan can be wrong in some cases folks. There are no holy books, that goes for CC. No one is perfect, no writing is always perfect, correct, never to the point we don't question something.

Argh. I think I need to write something else soon.

[Taimi]

Why 50%? Why not 70%? Ahhhh, does anyone understand where I'm coming from? Sometimes we adopt beliefs, and don't think through them, why we believe them.

Maybe I'm questioning some of the accountability issue. Then the absolutes on this. I know its a principle which is rooted in warriorship, but still. I think some of the offended issue is misunderstood by many. It's a principle to live by, but it's not perfect, not meant for all cases, not an absolute. It can't be. Don Juan can be wrong in some cases folks. There are no holy books, that goes for CC. No one is perfect, no writing is always perfect, correct, never to the point we don't question something.

Argh. I think I need to write something else soon.

You say this issue is misunderstood by many. Why would you care what these many people do?

[niamhspark]

You say this issue is misunderstood by many. Why would you care what these many people do?

That's a good question! I'm glad to see questioning, and accept this -- brings joy to be, thank you!

Ah, Taimi, look at many people who believe in certain gods, or follow certain religions, which aren't necessarily the healthiest. Got Muslims who believe if they go on a suicide bomb mission, they'll be rewarded in heaven and bestowed with many virgins and be heros when they die. We've got millions upon millions on the planet who believe Jesus will come back and save us from destruction. Why would I care about those issues even? I watch the news on CNN, see religion and racism, and all this shit coming up again, and I care because they're people just like me. I care because I'd hate to see a WWIII.

I care about the offended issue, or people getting it all twisted, because this is how false beliefs are born. Maybe part of it is, I'd like to see people probe the offended issue more, what DJ said and why, before they take it all in the wrong direction. Because taking meaning the wrong way, can be unhealthy for people. Thanks for questioning!