Topic: The Third Attention

[Builder]

Shamans like don Juan Matus defined their quest as the quest of becoming, in the end, an inorganic being, meaning energy aware of itself, action as a cohesive unit, but without an organism.  They called this aspect of their cognition total freedom, a state in which awareness exists, free from the impositions of socialization and syntax. (Castaneda, The Teachings of don Juan:  A Yaqui Way of Knowledge)

[Michael]

You have already done the deed. Please, feel free to have this thread and all the rest.

Bye-bye.

Juhani, sarcasm is not helpful to encouraging participation in Soma.
Lori is free to post her automatic associations on any thread without feeling she is being judged.

[Ke-ke wan]

Juhani, sarcasm is not helpful to encouraging participation in Soma.
Lori is free to post her automatic associations on any thread without feeling she is being judged.

Thanks Michael for the comment and the support, anyway.

[Builder]

1st world = 3 dimensional (ie. with two eyes we see distance - this and that, and here and there).
2nd world = 2 dimensional (ie a picture world, duality - this and that, which is what pictures are about)
3rd world = 1 dimensional (ie perception without pictures, non-duality, no comparisons)

don't get into a flap about that - it's just a way of talking.

what i think you are asking is how we move from the 2nd to the 3rd world. First, we do it when the astral body dies. But we also do it all the time - we have to be connected to the 3rd world or we wouldn't exist. The issue always is how to extend awareness from the 1st through the 2nd and into the 3rd.

This is what DJ referred to as warriors of the 3rd attention. 3rd world is also known as the Sephirah Kether in the Kaballah, or Brahman in Hinduism - sometimes also associated with Shiva.

Hinduism has the best tools of thought to help understand. Brahman is 'without attributes', meaning it is unknowable, in our understanding of knowing.

3rd attention means extending our attention into the 3rd world. Hinduism calls this moksha. It is worth noting that the entirety of Hindu thought in almost all it's variations, is dedicated to moksha - that's what it's all about. And so is it's 'reformation' Buddhism. Also, one could argue, is what is referred to as Philosophical Taoism, and Esoteric Taoism, but definitely not Popular Taoism.

Neither Judiasm, Christianity or Islam (the Abrahamic Religions) have any interest in this concept at all, aside from placing the Sephirah Kether at the top of the tree in Esoteric Judiasm - and one could also argue Northen Sufism has similar interests. But these are not within the orthodox religious field of any Abrahamic religion.

Toltec is dedicated to this concept, but only as part of it's third wave - a later development.

How to shift into the 3rd attention? Rudolf Steiner actually mapped it - he gave some early phases just passed the doorway, so to speak. I can't remember exactly, but they included things like intention.

There are two ways - direct and long.

Direct is absolute silence - the deepest experience of absolute silence you can possibly plumb.

Long is the journey, of mastery of passage. I mean you only need to master sufficient to pass through. Passage through the 1st and 2nd worlds. This means using the 1st and 2nd worlds - developing effectiveness in - to enter the 3rd world as a consequence of evolution of being - transformation.

It is my opinion that the long is the main task, but it also incorporates the direct. I am suspicious that the direct path can ever really be effective on its own. That is why i launched into the world, instead of retiring to a zen monastery. The problem with the long is that we get side-tracked along the way, and forget we are only passing through (a great song btw).

now we get into an area that preoccupies my attention considerably. I'll just say that at some point, the long is demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt to be impossible, futile. It simply can't be done. I have a song about that myself ("There's only one thing that you can cling to, and you won't find it no matter what you do.")

This is where we cast ourselves upon the mercy of the Bird. The active principle of Spirit. that does not mean we give up our own efforts.

It is like we are ascending a building, and each floor has steps leading to the next floor. But the the final steps to the roof of the building are missing. There are no steps for the last section.

[Builder]

The important point here is that when the warrior has acquired sufficient intent he will be able to silence the internal dialogue, which will in turn enable him to break the fixation of his awareness and to make his assemblage point fluid. Once this has been accomplished the warrior not only enters the awareness of his dreamer, but he also becomes at-one with his dreamer, which is of course his real self. It is this state of being which is termed the Third Attention, a level of awareness in which the warrior can consciously manipulate his dreamer's expression of the one universal force, namely the will of the Eagle, or intent. Hence it is stated that there comes a time in the life of the warrior when the command of the warrior becomes the command of the Eagle. (Theun Mares)

[Builder]

Shamans like don Juan Matus defined their quest as the quest of becoming, in the end, an inorganic being, meaning energy aware of itself, action as a cohesive unit, but without an organism.  They called this aspect of their cognition total freedom, a state in which awareness exists, free from the impositions of socialization and syntax. (Castaneda, The Teachings of don Juan:  A Yaqui Way of Knowledge)

And yet: Eagle's Gift

"The new seers... let the mastery of awareness develop to its natural end, which is to extend the glow of awareness beyond the bounds of the luminous cocoon in one single stroke. The third attention is attained when the glow of awareness turns into the fire from within: a glow that kindles not one band at a time but all the... emanations inside man's cocoon." Don Juan expressed his awe for the new seers' deliberate effort to attain the third attention while they are alive and conscious of their individuality... "The supreme accomplishment of human beings," he said, "is to attain that level of attention while retaining the life-force, without becoming a disembodied awareness moving like a flicker of light..." (p 77-78)

...[T]he glow produced by a state of total awareness... is seen as a burst of incandescence in the entire luminous egg. It is an explosion of light of such a magnitude that the boundaries of the shell are diffused and the inside emanations extend themselves beyond anything imaginable. "Are those special cases, don Juan?"

"Certainly. They happen only to seers. No other living men or any other living creatures brighten up like that. Seers who deliberately attain total awareness are a sight to behold. That is the moment when they burn from within. The fire from within consumes them. And in full awareness they fuse themselves to the emanations at large, and glide into eternity"...

"[As seers] our case is a bit different, because we are at the end of our trail. We are not seeking anything... we go from day to day doing nothing. We are waiting. I will not tire of repeating this: we know that we are waiting and we know what we are waiting for. We are waiting for freedom!" (p 120-121)

It occurs that Don Juan did not exclude the possibility of reaching the third attention (in the sense of fully aligning oneself with it) while alive. It just seems to be very rare - as is enlightenment in Hinduism/Buddhism (?)

Interesting question then is about the relationship of enlightenment and the physical death.

[Taimyr]

I think Jahn and Juhani are pretty alike in a way. You both never actually speak about your own experience, but something you have read and learned. There is a little difference though. Jahn is a little older and on a more respected situation in the society (for him at least) and thus thinks he is also on a more achieved level spiritually. To me it looks like it is all just a construction in the mind. You are really nothing what you speak of. You are an ordinary person who has aqueried specific lifestile. Juhani at least seems to realise that he is indeed nothing special, just he is kind of trapped in the unconcious mechanisms. He just wants to be rough, maybe it's manly or something for him. 

So anyway, could you all just drop this pretence and talk about where you really are? I mean why the hell should we do all this show here, for who? Our personal little egos to feel better? Why, why, why?

Could we have some honesty? For this little time I was in Toltec Forum (or whatever it was called) and read the posts and searched the history, there was honesty between members, you couldn't pretend you are something special and more advanced, if you tried, you were brought down to earth by other members quickly.

Here, all these years there is this feeling of supression. Why? What the flower do you want, acceptanse from the members of this forum? What the hell are you going to do with it?

[Taimyr]

And Michael..., you are just very much more clever with playing your cards and what you have learned.

[Michael]

 

[Angela]

I think Jahn and Juhani are pretty alike in a way. You both never actually speak about your own experience, but something you have read and learned. There is a little difference though. Jahn is a little older and on a more respected situation in the society (for him at least) and thus thinks he is also on a more achieved level spiritually. To me it looks like it is all just a construction in the mind. You are really nothing what you speak of. You are an ordinary person who has aqueried specific lifestile. Juhani at least seems to realise that he is indeed nothing special, just he is kind of trapped in the unconcious mechanisms. He just wants to be rough, maybe it's manly or something for him. 

So anyway, could you all just drop this pretence and talk about where you really are? I mean why the hell should we do all this show here, for who? Our personal little egos to feel better? Why, why, why?

Could we have some honesty? For this little time I was in Toltec Forum (or whatever it was called) and read the posts and searched the history, there was honesty between members, you couldn't pretend you are something special and more advanced, if you tried, you were brought down to earth by other members quickly.

Here, all these years there is this feeling of supression. Why? What the flower do you want, acceptanse from the members of this forum? What the hell are you going to do with it?

And Michael..., you are just very much more clever with playing your cards and what you have learned.

Nice, T ... I have always loved your keen 'eye'. 

What I've learned in these forums, though, is It's not what people present 'to be', because that doesn't really matter. What matters is what you, yourself learn from what they present. One person can be many to others. in other words, each forum member gets what they 'want' or 'need' depending on their state of awareness. There are many decks of cards

Bottom line is you have to whittle it down to your own 'truth'.

[Taimyr]

Sure, I'm cool with everything. Just had a few beers yesterday 

Nice, T ... I have always loved your keen 'eye'. 

What I've learned in these forums, though, is It's not what people present 'to be', because that doesn't really matter. What matters is what you, yourself learn from what they present. One person can be many to others. in other words, each forum member gets what they 'want' or 'need' depending on their state of awareness. There are many decks of cards

Bottom line is you have to whittle it down to your own 'truth'.

[Jahn]

Jahn is a little older and on a more respected situation in the society (for him at least) and thus thinks he is also on a more achieved level spiritually. To me it looks like it is all just a construction in the mind. You are really nothing what you speak of. You are an ordinary person who has aqueried specific lifestile.

It is more about when you bought the ticket to the third attention, or whatever, than to be on any special level. I got my ticket in 1978. It took many years to add the experiences back then into my tonal.

The third attention is nothing that is essential for growth and evolution therefore I have nothing more to add about it.

[Taimyr]

But how can I take seriously someone who is only talking about theory?

[Builder]

So anyway, could you all just drop this pretence and talk about where you really are? I mean why the hell should we do all this show here, for who? Our personal little egos to feel better? Why, why, why?

Good questions and timely.
So you want to know where I really am and what I do? What I meditate on, what problems do I solve in life? What trance exercises I do, what journeys? What are the most secret aspirations of mine?

These are tricky questions as one must carefully draw the line between opening up and keeping one's mantra secret. There are also considerations of being inaccessible to the world. To whom and to what extent I should make myself available/accessible.

I meditate about 7 times a week, recapitulate every single day of my life. These are routines. I have set my life so that I have much more time than before to dedicate to my quest. Life is ticking - nothing to tell, really. As a human being or a member of society I am boring to death.

Point to ponder: what happens in the fraction of a second before opening your eyes - how does the world come into being and how does it look like when you do not look?

[Taimyr]

So you want to know where I really am and what I do? What I meditate on, what problems do I solve in life? What trance exercises I do, what journeys? What are the most secret aspirations of mine?

These are tricky questions as one must carefully draw the line between opening up and keeping one's mantra secret. There are also considerations of being inaccessible to the world. To whom and to what extent I should make myself available/accessible.

Yeah I understand this. I don't like to talk about everything to the detail either. Some things are better to ripen on their own. But yes personal experiences would be much more like food for me than theories. Not like an entertainment, but something to really ponder about.

I guess I want the impossible then. When the personal experiences are so valuable and intimate, that they can't be chared.