Author Topic: The second coming  (Read 1528 times)

Offline Nick

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2014, 12:38:08 AM »

I treat myself the way I find useful, if that means caring, then ok, caring it is :) I wouldn't say I really care about others, I just let them be. Or I behave the way that I find fitting in a situation, which doesn't mean I deeply care about them or want them to behave same way with me.

Now, may I ask, is it important to you how others treat you and why?
Do you find it important to treat others the way you want them to treat you, and why?


I wasn't asking if you 'care' about others, as in feel something in the empathy, sympathy, or pity sense. I was asking if it 'matters' to you, if it is 'important' to you how you treat yourself, and others.

By you saying that you treat yourself and others in whatever way is most useful, you are agreeing with me. You are saying that it is important to you that you behave a certain way toward yourself, and others.

To answer your question toward me. I do find it important how others treat me. I try to not take offence to the way others treat me, because that offence wouldn't me useful. Still I try to craft the way I interact with others, to encourage others to not make my life difficult.

So yes I care, it matters, or is important to me how I treat others, and how they treat me, because I do not want my life to be difficult when that challenge isn't useful to me.

Are we then in agreement on this one point?
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #91 on: July 29, 2014, 01:24:08 AM »
Yes, it does appear that we agree on this.


So yes I care, it matters, or is important to me how I treat others, and how they treat me, because I do not want my life to be difficult when that challenge isn't useful to me.

Are we then in agreement on this one point?

Offline Michael

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #92 on: July 29, 2014, 01:26:40 AM »
Yes, it does appear that we agree on this.


Jesus Christ!

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #93 on: July 29, 2014, 01:33:15 AM »
Now, what's the big deal? You also agree with us?  ::)

Jesus Christ!

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #94 on: July 29, 2014, 06:02:00 AM »
Remember Jahn said...Jahn correct me if I'm wrong. That there is no such thing as right and wrong. That it is all actually about energy. We could simplify that as qualities of lightness or heaviness. I can then simplify it all in terms of energy. All this is much easier than it sounds.

You are right, in the Universe there is no such things as right and wrong, it is all about heavy and light energy.
However, when we want to maintain a society we apply penalty to what we feel is wrong. Rape, assault and murder we find "wrong" so there is penalty and dislike for such things.

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #95 on: July 29, 2014, 06:08:41 AM »
Lets just say then that in the universe there are choices that lift our energy and choices that don't, or even lower it. For me choosing the upward direction is right and going backwards or downwards is wrong.

You are right, in the Universe there is no such things as right and wrong, it is all about heavy and light energy.
However, when we want to maintain a society we apply penalty to what we feel is wrong. Rape, assault and murder we find "wrong" so there is penalty and dislike for such things.


Offline Nick

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #96 on: July 29, 2014, 09:29:23 AM »
Yes, it does appear that we agree on this.


Though this feels almost like pulling teeth I'm going to seek one last clarification.

You would want to treat someone in a way that is equivalant to how you would treat yourself?


You also stated that certain choices lift your energy, and certain choices don't. Could you provide an example of a few different choices that uplift, and a few that don't?

For example, for me:

It was uplifting for me to leave my home at 18.

It is uplifting for me to meditate.

It is uplifting for me to take a break from meditating.

It is uplifting to spend time with my wife, and daughter.


It is not uplifting for me to over eat.

It is not uplifting for me to take out my stress on others.

It is uplifting to experience stress, and there are times when it is not uplifting to be stressed.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 10:49:50 AM by Nick »
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #97 on: July 29, 2014, 06:20:52 PM »
I don't know, why do you keep asking this? :) I don't treat anyone or want to treat anyone in any specific way. I believe the answer would be no, really doesn't matter to me to treat someone the way I want to treat myself. People can mind their own business and do what ever they want. I just keep my relations light and nonproblematic. Also I don't treat myself in any specific way, I just do what I want and try to inscrease my awareness. What do you mean by "treating yourself" anyway?

Uplifting choices, hmm. It would be something similar to what you described. But not only actions, also thoughts. Sometimes the difficult part is actually to realise that I am choosing something almost in every moment. Most important choices are about the inner direction and realising when something is hindering or indulgent.

Though this feels almost like pulling teeth I'm going to seek one last clarification.

You would want to treat someone in a way that is equivalant to how you would treat yourself?


You also stated that certain choices lift your energy, and certain choices don't. Could you provide an example of a few different choices that uplift, and a few that don't?

For example, for me:

It was uplifting for me to leave my home at 18.

It is uplifting for me to meditate.

It is uplifting for me to take a break from meditating.

It is uplifting to spend time with my wife, and daughter.


It is not uplifting for me to over eat.

It is not uplifting for me to take out my stress on others.

It is uplifting to experience stress, and there are times when it is not uplifting to be stressed.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 06:41:58 PM by Taimyr »

Offline Nick

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2014, 01:15:32 AM »
I don't know, why do you keep asking this? :) I don't treat anyone or want to treat anyone in any specific way. I believe the answer would be no, really doesn't matter to me to treat someone the way I want to treat myself. People can mind their own business and do what ever they want. I just keep my relations light and nonproblematic. Also I don't treat myself in any specific way, I just do what I want and try to inscrease my awareness. What do you mean by "treating yourself" anyway?

Uplifting choices, hmm. It would be something similar to what you described. But not only actions, also thoughts. Sometimes the difficult part is actually to realise that I am choosing something almost in every moment. Most important choices are about the inner direction and realising when something is hindering or indulgent.


Okay, it seems this method isn't working as well as I had hoped. Its fascinating how easily misunderstanding can occur. If I had a lot more time I think we could do it, but I'll just sum it all up.

You treat yourself a certain way by increasing your awareness, is what you said. The question could then be phrased as would you do things to others that might make it harder for them to increase their awareness? For instance deliberately deceiving them for your own selfish gain? You said you try not to do anything that makes your own life, or the life of others more difficult. This is the same principle in different wording.

What I'm looking for is an acknowledgement of the importance of the ethic of reciprocity. This ethic is pretty universal. It has been formulated in many ways.

In India: "Hence, (keeping these in mind), by self-control and by making dharma (right conduct) your main focus, treat others as you treat yourself." 

Buddhism:

Comparing oneself to others in such terms as "Just as I am so are they, just as they are so am I," he should neither kill nor cause others to kill.

—Sutta Nipata 705
One who, while himself seeking happiness, oppresses with violence other beings who also desire happiness, will not attain happiness hereafter.

—Dhammapada 10. Violence
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.

—Udanavarga 5:18
Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.[48]

Scientology:

Thus today we have two golden rules for happiness: 1. Be able to experience anything; and 2. Cause only those things which others are able to experience easily.

—Scientology: A New Slant on Life, Two Rules for Happy Living



The trick is not to treat others as if they are the same as you. The trick is to treat them as different from you, but equal. To see how you and all others are equal you center yourself, from this place you'll remember your own maximum significance. You'll see through the surface. Its from this place you can see what you need, and see what the Other needs.

The Other (capital 'O'), as I am using it here, is any being outside of you, that is foreign to you. Once you see to their essence they are no long quite as Other as they were. Anytime we say that someone is different and therefor should be treated as 'less than', then we dehumanize them. Dehumanization, which for simplicity sake we will say is basically the same as objectification, is how we create the Other. There is an inherent difficulty in seeing past our own limited self-centered experience, such that any being outside of me is almost always a little foreign.

To be moral is not to live in isolation, it implies an interaction between more than one being. I must be most fully my own highest significance, while using identification to put myself into the place of the other being then I under-stand them.

Now when we talk about right and wrong, or up and down, light and heavy. We presuppose the ability to choose. This is fine when we are sitting by ourselves in a quite room. When undisturbed much seems possible, but then we go out somewhere. Someone yells at you, and you get angry, you go home, and unintentionally you take out your anger on others.

On the other hand. You said you do what increases awareness. If you really are aware of being aware, then you might also remember that others are not aware. If they wanted to be they would have to struggle to be aware just as you. You and the Other are not so different. Now you can enter into the Other's position, when you under-stand where they are coming from it is possible to not take their actions personally. It is now possible to make a deliberate choice. The choice to remain internally indifferent.

I say internally indifferent, because what if you have to appear angry? I have had situations where someone just would not listen until they saw me angry. Perhaps they were of the confrontational sort, maybe they didn't think I took them seriously until they saw strong emotion, or perhaps they needed to be shocked out of what ever they were going through. In other situations I have had to put on a smile to sell a product, or any number of other roles that the stage of human interaction requires.

Still I want to remain internally free of this role playing. Unless I'm using the role to change something internal.  The inner moves freely while the outer must align to whatever the situation requires. If the inner can move freely it is free to align to something of real substance, the Spirit. One tool to aid us in separating the inner world from the outer is inner silence. Inner silence will bring temporary stillness to the inner world, eventually the external world will no longer dictate the conditions of your inner life.

Do you see it now, how the Golden Rule can only be properly implemented with Gurdjieff's external considering, and how all this gives us the ability to be moral?

The proper practice of external considering sets up the appropriate conditions for a person to enter the Flow. That is it frees up your internal energy, and minimizes unnecessary external challenges. It minimizes the tendency to be self absorbed. It requires being intensely in the moment. The ability to be mindful of what your doing. All these things are the result of techniques that improve our energetic condition, and as a result of the improved energetic condition we are more moral people.

Yes being more moral behaviorally can improve our internal energetic condition to some degree, but often such change doesn't last. The reason is your inner energetic condition dictates what happens on the outside. If you only try to change the outer choices to change the inner, then you wont get any where fast. It is much easier to change the inside.

Morality is a word we apply to describe certain types of behavior. Yet morality is really just an energetic condition. I think the message here is that we don't need to think in terms of morality, which is often very relativistic. That is what is right or wrong varies from situation to situation, and person to person. We are all equal, but different. On the other hand, improve your own personal energy, change yourself, and you will be more moral.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 01:21:29 AM by Nick »
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2014, 01:30:02 AM »
I don't have the energy to give you a detailed description of how these things work for me :)

Lets just say that basically I agree with you :)

Jahn

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2014, 03:35:19 AM »
People can mind their own business and do what ever they want.

Like marry the same sex, I suppose.

Offline Taimyr

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2014, 06:03:12 AM »
Well... they can do what ever they want, but that doesn't mean I am blind about humanity's choices.

Like marry the same sex, I suppose.

Offline Nick

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2014, 09:24:04 AM »
There is more to this that I didn't delve into.

Everything in life appears in the form of duality. Everything can be symbolically represented by masculinity, and femininity. Even the most masculine contains femininity, and the dividing lines are never clearly drawn. Its a lot of semantics. The world of energy is beyond this symbolism, and semantics. Entering the world of energy, and manifesting that energy into the world of form is, from my perspective of highest moral importance. Everything else morally speaking falls into place from this position.

Yet to enter the world of energy the dividing line between you and I must melt away. The line that divides garden from me. The mental line that makes me think of the garden as mine, instead of me belonging to the garden. To do so we leave the head, and open the heart. We feel our world from a place of silence.

The principle of reciprocity, or the golden rule that we were discussing, is a tool to help melt the dividing line between you, and I. All truly ethical systems could be thought of as tools to help melt that dividing line between you, and I. Between subject who is perceiving, and the Other-object that is being perceived. The way is to see the you in them. If you are able to recognize a particular quality in them, perhaps it is in part because of that quality in you. Then you can not stop there. You see ugliness, or immorality in someone, or in a group, you have to look for that in yourself. You have to shift your perception to see yourself as ugly, and accept that perception of yourself as equally true to any other perception of yourself.

Don't stop with a one sided internal paradigm. That is once you see yourself as ugly, you have to remember the principle of duality that there is always beauty in ugliness. Find the beauty in your own ugliness. Keep doing this with every quality until you no longer care about the difference between different qualities. Till right and wrong doesn't matter anymore, as you can see the right in the wrong, and that it all equals out.

Then something interesting is found.

Every-thing is equal.

Something is valuable by comparison and contra-position. This thing is a certain degree of value, because something else has been deemed of less value. I derive my meaning of beauty in part by its comparison to what I have deemed to be ugly.

If everything is equal then no-thing matters.

If value is determined by saying that something is more than something that is less, but in actuality no such fixed value differences exists. That is, what is of one value this moment, is a different value in another moment...and time itself isn't of fixed, or linear orientation, than we can not objectively speaking designate a fixed value. Then in the big picture every value equals out, but that also means that no real values exist at all.
I.e. morality isn't real.

Oh, crap I've contradicted a previous statement!

I stated that living from the world of energy was of the highest moral importance. Wait, no contradiction at all. Actually if every-thing is objectively speaking of zero value. That is every material, every object, every form is of zero value, then what actually matters is the world that isn't composed of 'things'.

If every-thing matters equally, then no-thing matters.

Is this what is meant by living is if we are already dead? Is the attainment of this when the inner and outer shells of our being separate, and we have achieved substantial depth of presence? If nothing is of value it is as if we are dead, but then if we have done our due diligence we see this is only the superficial layer of reality. Once all that we clung to is no longer worth clinging to, we sink down within, into our inner life body. Into the awareness of what makes you sentient. From this place you can feel the difference between the value of energy, and the value of form. This is the beginning of true discrimination. Until this distinction is made you have not discovered what it means to reason. I would posit that we are all on this forum, because to varying degrees we all have some awareness of this distinction. You can get an idea of how clearly someone understands this distinction, by how clearly they understand the equality of all things. You can feel how deeply they under-stand by whether or not higher energy is manifested into their outer form-world.

Every-thing becomes of the highest value only when we know the value of no-thing.

Now you no longer project your value onto the world. You channel higher energy into the world, and as a result every-thing is seen as having objective value.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 11:39:59 AM by Nick »
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Nick

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2014, 11:34:25 AM »
Unfortunately some people do a distinction between humans and animals, placing us above the animals.

My son went to Ethiopia and catched this statement in a discussion near him.
 A guy said that he did not belive in God/Allah to the others, which made someone reply upset:
 - But then you are like an animal.

This is of course a very stupid idea. Animals where on this planet before us and we can be happy that they give us so much in return. We are the bastards compared to the animals. Let us turn it the other way and place the animals above us, not equal, but instead the keepers of our true nature on earth.

Don Juan explained to Carlos that Carlos' Nagual animal was the fox. The Fox is the earth bound animal of the same energy and aspect, as the Raven.





"Anyone who understands the profound meaning of the Gospel of St. John will feel not only united through his physical body with the physical body of the earth, but as a psycho-spiritual being will feel united with the psycho-spiritual being of the earth which is the Christ Himself, and then he will feel how the Christ, as the Spirit of the Earth, flows through his body. When we have this experience, we are able to ask: what illuminated the writer of the Gospel of St. John at that moment when he was able to behold the profound mysteries which have to do with Christ-Jesus? He beheld the forces, the impulses which are present in Christ-Jesus, and he perceived how these impulses must be active in mankind, if only mankind will receive them."



"Let us suppose that a transgressor is brought before a person who really understands the Christ-Word. What will be his attitude toward the transgressor? Let us suppose that all those who would like to be Christians were to accuse him of a terrible sin. The real Christian would say to them: “Whether what you maintain has been done by him or not, makes no difference, the I AM must be respected; it must be left to Karma, to the great law which is the law of the Christ-Spirit Himself. Karma is fulfilled in the course of earthly evolution. We can leave it to this earthly evolution to determine what punishment Karma shall inflict upon a human being.” He would perhaps turn to the earth and say to the accusers: — “Pay heed to yourselves, it is the duty of the earth to inflict the punishment. Let us inscribe it then upon the earth where it has, moreover, been registered as Karma.”
Jesus went up to the Mount of Olives.
And early in the morning He came again into the temple and all the people came unto Him and He sat down and taught them.
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and they placed her in their midst.
They said unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us that such should be stoned; but what sayest Thou?
This they said, tempting Him, that they might accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
But when they heard this, being convicted by their own conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the eldest even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted Himself up and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?
This He said in order to turn her thoughts away from all idea of outer judgment and point to an inner Karma.
She said, No man, Lord.
She was left to her Karma. Thus the only thing for her was to think no more about “punishment” which Karma fulfills, but to change her life.
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."


"Thus we see that in the post-Atlantean period the first impulse for developing the higher man flows into the earth. Tomorrow we shall become acquainted with the evolution of the human being in his relation to the Christ Impulse here in this post-Atlantean period and then, proceeding further, we shall show what the Christ of the future will be."

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA103/English/AP1962/19080526p01.html
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Nichi

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Re: The second coming
« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2014, 12:26:46 PM »
This is of course a very stupid idea. Animals where on this planet before us and we can be happy that they give us so much in return. We are the bastards compared to the animals. Let us turn it the other way and place the animals above us, not equal, but instead the keepers of our true nature on earth.

And the Keepers of true grace, and forgiveness. How much practice they get, forgiving humans, constantly!
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
~Hsin Hsin Ming

 

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