Topic: David Bohm on reality

[Taimyr]

Well first thing is to accept that life around us, our environment can provide everything we need for our evolution. And no matter how small or irrelevant the deatils seem, there can be lessons there. Interpretation comes with time an experience. The current life situation, no matter how mundane it may seem, consists of everything we need. Spirit can also lead a person to inner silence, without him or her specially engaging in it regularly. There is a difference to doing something from our human initiative to Spirit guiding us to specific actions.

Yes. But they require knowledge to interpret.

[Michael]

I'll give an example. Today I attended a funeral, for the mother of a friend of ours.

As I sat in the room, I felt an intense personal experience. This was uniquely personal to me - my thoughts and visions, were all uniquely mine. No one else in that room was having that experience except me. All around me, everyone else was also having their own unique personal experience, and I could see it was different for everyone. So much passed through my feelings and thoughts, that I could never explain it, or even attempt to describe it effectively.

But I could also step outside my personal experience, and see what was happening in objective reality around me. What I saw was death touching everyone in the room, and through that, everyone had a window of awareness opened to the vast bedrock of the sadness of life. That seeing I can bring here and describe, and I'd wager every seer here has seen the same thing at a funeral. That seeing is open to validation by other seers.

And yet, another seer here could say, what she saw at funerals, was not everyone being touched by death, but everyone being touched by their own double. I would have to agree. Once that view was said to me, I also can say I saw the same thing. Then another seer may say what they saw was the coffin transformed into a vast chasm revealing a vista of infinity, and everyone present standing along the crest of the precipice, gazing out into that endlessness. I would then say yes, I saw the same, now you mention it - I can validate that. Then another seer might come forth and say he didn't see everyone being touched by their doubles, but everyone being touched by one double - the face of infinity itself. And I would also agree. Then another seer at the same funeral might say, what they saw was the spirit of the departed one, wandering around amongst the crowd. Yes, I'd say, I also saw that.

These things are verifiable by others, and yet for each seer, their personal experience would be unique and not shared. Nonetheless, that does not mean that there are not times when personal experiences are shared. Some events can be so powerful, and some people so powerful, that everyone present has exactly the same personal experience. It is said that Atisha in old Tibet had this power, to allow everyone to experience the same. Another example is the sorcerers of old, who united their personal visions to create another world into which they all transferred. It could be said that that process is precisely why we all see the same thing during our waking hours - we are sharing a non-unique personal experience which we call the 'world'.

[Nick]

Well first thing is to accept that life around us, our environment can provide everything we need for our evolution. And no matter how small or irrelevant the deatils seem, there can be lessons there. Interpretation comes with time an experience. The current life situation, no matter how mundane it may seem, consists of everything we need. Spirit can also lead a person to inner silence, without him or her specially engaging in it regularly. There is a difference to doing something from our human initiative to Spirit guiding us to specific actions.

I believe there is truth in what you are saying, if I am interpreting you correctly.

Are you saying that if you listen closely, and feel your world...if you are in the 'Now'. Then there is much to learn from the Spirits guidance alone?

If so I might agree, except that I do feel we need knowledge. The Spirit may provide a lesson, perhaps that lesson comes as an intuition, or an insight. Then you have to study that lesson.

Four kinds of knowledge, or ways in which we use knowledge in particular, not counting silent knowing...four as I calculate it anyway:

meta-cognitive: that is knowledge that comes from pondering about your own knowledge. Knowing what you know, and understanding that knowledge. This include knowing how to make important tactical and strategic decisions.

This also includes the kind of thinking where you look at what a teacher says, and ask why is this lesson is structured in that way. It is different from asking what is the root, is this true, how or why does this work, it is different from how does this relate to something else, from the creative thinking that asks what if etc. Though meta-cognitive thinking may include all these types of questions, it applies these questions to understanding that underlying structure that ties knowledge together. It comes to this understanding by knowing its own knowledge.


Pondering in general: Learn to ponder, and contemplate, so you can create information, and delve deeply into information, and knowledge. It isn't a good idea to keep taking in more info without bringing your own thoughts to understand it.

Reading, observing, listening: You take in ideas, and thoughts of others. There are many very useful tools to improve a persons ability to do this well. A great book is "How to Read a Book by Mortimer J Adler".


http://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Book-Intelligent-Touchstone/dp/0671212095

Dialog, discussion, debate, and communication: what we do here. though there are many other format for how to engage in communication that are of great value.

[Nick]

I'll give an example. Today I attended a funeral, for the mother of a friend of ours.

As I sat in the room, I felt an intense personal experience. This was uniquely personal to me - my thoughts and visions, were all uniquely mine. No one else in that room was having that experience except me. All around me, everyone else was also having their own unique personal experience, and I could see it was different for everyone. So much passed through my feelings and thoughts, that I could never explain it, or even attempt to describe it effectively.

But I could also step outside my personal experience, and see what was happening in objective reality around me. What I saw was death touching everyone in the room, and through that, everyone had a window of awareness opened to the vast bedrock of the sadness of life. That seeing I can bring here and describe, and I'd wager every seer here has seen the same thing at a funeral. That seeing is open to validation by other seers.

And yet, another seer here could say, what she saw at funerals, was not everyone being touched by death, but everyone being touched by their own double. I would have to agree. Once that view was said to me, I also can say I saw the same thing. Then another seer may say what they saw was the coffin transformed into a vast chasm revealing a vista of infinity, and everyone present standing along the crest of the precipice, gazing out into that endlessness. I would then say yes, I saw the same, now you mention it - I can validate that. Then another seer might come forth and say he didn't see everyone being touched by their doubles, but everyone being touched by one double - the face of infinity itself. And I would also agree. Then another seer at the same funeral might say, what they saw was the spirit of the departed one, wandering around amongst the crowd. Yes, I'd say, I also saw that.

Thank you for sharing this. I had a similar experience when I went to the funeral for Jen's grandmother.

It felt as if a window into something deeply silent had opened for everyone who was there. A recognition of the inherent meaninglessness of life. Yet it seemed people did not want to fully face that silence, and so they talked to one another as much as possible. Or they were so immersed in their sorrow they couldn't see into the window.

At the same time I feel as if I am not adequately describing my own experience from that funeral. That I did not delve as deeply into it as I should have to be able to say in rigorous detail what I experienced.

[Taimyr]

Yes, my life and everything in it, is my playground, for the awareness to grow. I don't have to specifically design some tasks and excercises.

The problem is that there is no one past a certain point to give us a clearer understanding of what we are going through. No book or person can explain some things. Because no one has been there. It is uncharted land. Although theoretically everyone should be able to use their own inner knowing to find the truth. And also if we intend and look for answers in the world, Spirit may provide them, even through other people, but which doesn't have to mean that they are definetly on a high level of awareness.

Maybe it is possible for a person to not get lost on his own and make conclusions about his experience, even if in the future. I've had lots of help and I really don't know where I'd be without that. Sometimes a new knowing or understanding of something, comes sneakingly, barely graspable, but when I talk about it and get some cues, things become clearer faster. I have to say, it is quite amazing when someone says a few words and bang, it rings a bell...

I believe there is truth in what you are saying, if I am interpreting you correctly.

Are you saying that if you listen closely, and feel your world...if you are in the 'Now'. Then there is much to learn from the Spirits guidance alone?

If so I might agree, except that I do feel we need knowledge. The Spirit may provide a lesson, perhaps that lesson comes as an intuition, or an insight. Then you have to study that lesson.

Four kinds of knowledge, or ways in which we use knowledge in particular, not counting silent knowing...four as I calculate it anyway:

meta-cognitive: that is knowledge that comes from pondering about your own knowledge. Knowing what you know, and understanding that knowledge. This include knowing how to make important tactical and strategic decisions.

This also includes the kind of thinking where you look at what a teacher says, and ask why is this lesson is structured in that way. It is different from asking what is the root, is this true, how or why does this work, it is different from how does this relate to something else, from the creative thinking that asks what if etc. Though meta-cognitive thinking may include all these types of questions, it applies these questions to understanding that underlying structure that ties knowledge together. It comes to this understanding by knowing its own knowledge.


Pondering in general: Learn to ponder, and contemplate, so you can create information, and delve deeply into information, and knowledge. It isn't a good idea to keep taking in more info without bringing your own thoughts to understand it.

Reading, observing, listening: You take in ideas, and thoughts of others. There are many very useful tools to improve a persons ability to do this well. A great book is "How to Read a Book by Mortimer J Adler".


http://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Book-Intelligent-Touchstone/dp/0671212095

Dialog, discussion, debate, and communication: what we do here. though there are many other format for how to engage in communication that are of great value.

[Jahn]

“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light‐years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

I just wondered, how long would it take before anyone threw in Carl Sagan.

[Jahn]

Simple as that? No reason whatsoever? Just accept it because I say it?

If you where a warrior in the lineage of Carlos Castaneda, I would hold anything as you say as the truth.

Simple as that, always tell the truth. After all Castaneda had some reasons to tell the truth, he got haunted for making constructs. But that is another story.

[Jahn]

What about life as a teacher,

To freely quote Kris Raphael:
Life is often a quite rude teacher.
Meaning it is better to be a step before Life as a Teacher.

[Firestarter]

I just wondered, how long would it take before anyone threw in Carl Sagan.

Yep lol. That was mainly for rudi to explain that he can find spirituality in science. It does not have to be missing for him if he pursues science as his path.