Author Topic: David Bohm on reality  (Read 1732 times)

Offline Firestarter

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David Bohm on reality
« on: June 28, 2014, 12:07:38 PM »
“Reality is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based upon our perceptions. What we perceive depends upon what we look for. What we look for depends on what we think. What we think depends on what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality.”

A direct quote from The Quantum and the Lotus, the notion of what is reality summarized by physicist, David Bohm
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

Jahn

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 05:23:09 AM »
“Reality is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based upon our perceptions. What we perceive depends upon what we look for. What we look for depends on what we think. What we think depends on what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality.”

A direct quote from The Quantum and the Lotus, the notion of what is reality summarized by physicist, David Bohm

So, David Bohm teached or rather discussed Quantum Physics with Dalai Lams, Ok.

David Bohms contribute to Physics is the Holographic Universe, of which I am sure we have some posts of here in Soma.

To some validity of our preferences, Carlos Castaneda is mentioned regarding the theories about the Holographic Universe.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 05:26:06 AM by Jahn »

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David Bohm on the Universe as a Hologram theory
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 05:30:36 AM »
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/hologram.html

In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of Paris a research team led by physicist  Alain Aspect performed what may turn out to be one of the most important experiments of the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news. In fact, unless you are in the habit of reading scientific journals you probably have never even heard Aspect's name, though there are some who believe his discovery may change the face of science.

Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart. Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than the speed of light.

 Since traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain away Aspect's findings. But it has inspired others to offer even more radical explanations.


University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's findings imply that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram.

To understand why Bohm makes this startling assertion, one must first understand a little about holograms. A hologram is a three- dimensional photograph made with the aid of a laser. To make a hologram, the object to be photographed is first bathed in the light of a laser beam. Then a second laser beam is bounced off the reflected light of the first and the resulting interference pattern (the area where the two laser beams commingle) is captured on film. When the film is developed, it looks like a meaningless swirl of light and dark lines. But as soon as the developed film is illuminated by another laser beam, a three-dimensional image of the original object appears.

The three-dimensionality of such images is not the only remarkable characteristic of holograms. If a hologram of a rose is cut in half and then illuminated by a laser, each half will still be found to contain the entire image of the rose. Indeed, even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole.

The "whole in every part" nature of a hologram provides us with an entirely new way of understanding organization and order. For most of its history, Western science has labored under the bias that the best way to understand a physical phenomenon, whether a frog or an atom, is to dissect it and study its respective parts. A hologram teaches us that some things in the universe may not lend themselves to this approach. If we try to take apart something constructed holographically, we will not get the pieces of which it is made, we will only get smaller wholes.
 
This insight suggested to Bohm another way of understanding Aspect's discovery. Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something.

To enable people to better visualize what he means, Bohm offers the following illustration. Imagine an aquarium containing a fish. Imagine also that you are unable to see the aquarium directly and your knowledge about it and what it contains comes from two television cameras, one directed at the aquarium's front and the other directed at its side. As you stare at the two television monitors, you might assume that the fish on each of the screens are separate entities. After all, because the cameras are set at different angles, each of the images will be slightly different. But as you continue to watch the two fish, you will eventually become aware that there is a certain relationship between them. When one turns, the other also makes a slightly different but corresponding turn; when one faces the front, the other always faces toward the side. If you remain unaware of the full scope of the situation, you might even conclude that the fish must be instantaneously communicating with one another, but this is clearly not the case.

This, says Bohm, is precisely what is going on between the subatomic particles in Aspect's experiment. According to Bohm, the apparent faster-than-light connection between subatomic particles is really telling us that there is a deeper level of reality we are not privy to, a more complex dimension beyond our own that is analogous to the aquarium. And, he adds, we view objects such as subatomic particles as separate from one another because we are seeing only a portion of their reality. Such particles are not separate "parts", but facets of a deeper and more underlying unity that is ultimately as holographic and indivisible as the previously mentioned rose. And since everything in physical reality is comprised of these "eidolons", the universe is itself a projection, a hologram.

In addition to its phantomlike nature, such a universe would possess other rather startling features. If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected.The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web.

In a holographic universe, even time and space could no longer be viewed as fundamentals. Because concepts such as location break down in a universe in which nothing is truly separate from anything else, time and three-dimensional space, like the images of the fish on the TV monitors, would also have to be viewed as projections of this deeper order. At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. This suggests that given the proper tools it might even be possible to someday reach into the superholographic level of reality and pluck out scenes from the long-forgotten past.

What else the superhologram contains is an open-ended question. Allowing, for the sake of argument, that the superhologram is the matrix that has given birth to everything in our universe, at the very least it contains every subatomic particle that has been or will be -- every configuration of matter and energy that is possible, from snowflakes to quasars, from blue whales to gamma rays. It must be seen as a sort of cosmic storehouse of "All That Is."

Although Bohm concedes that we have no way of knowing what else might lie hidden in the superhologram, he does venture to say that we have no reason to assume it does not contain more. Or as he puts it, perhaps the superholographic level of reality is a "mere stage" beyond which lies "an infinity of further development".

Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2014, 06:25:20 AM »
It is important to realise that while theorethocal physics and philosophy are good tools for building models of the universe, they mean nothing without concrete empirical proofs.
Without experiments, data and test that can be reproduced reliably by independent observers, it's all just wishful thinking - speculations.

Recent theories about the "holographic universe" are vastly different from this, and the word is used in a different meaning. And they are just speculation, and they don't offer any experiment that could prove or disprove the validity of the hypothesis.

Any unfalsifiable hypothesis is useless for all practical intents and purposes.
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2014, 06:32:19 AM »
I would also like to add that probably it has nothing to do with the world view of the Toltecs. It is a logical fallacy yo take two texts written in entirely different contexts and, based on a few similarities, to assume that they are talking about the same thing.

They might or they might not. Fact is that we have two hypotheses that we just can't prove with any reasonable confidence. Therefore saying that they talk about the same thing is quite a stretch.
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Jahn

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2014, 08:34:19 PM »


Any unfalsifiable hypothesis is useless for all practical intents and purposes.

As I told my son Samuel yesterday when he would like to talk about "deep" thought about the Universe, - "I still hold on to Newton, simply because his laws is those that I can deal with in a practical way, especially when driving different vehicles".

Offline Nick

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2014, 11:31:51 PM »
I would also like to add that probably it has nothing to do with the world view of the Toltecs. It is a logical fallacy yo take two texts written in entirely different contexts and, based on a few similarities, to assume that they are talking about the same thing.

They might or they might not. Fact is that we have two hypotheses that we just can't prove with any reasonable confidence. Therefore saying that they talk about the same thing is quite a stretch.

Agree 100%, and I often say the same to people I see do this.

Still, if you take the time to imagine that Bohm was discussiong Toltec concepts, and use his ideas to help yu flesh out details not covered by other Toltec authors. Then you delve deeply into pondering these thoughts, it could lead to some very valuable insights, and shifting of perspective.

Those insights could then lead you to make valuable changes that help you grow and evolve on your path. It may be that none of this is empiracly proven, but pragmatically valuable none the less. 
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2014, 12:19:25 AM »
Those insights could then lead you to make valuable changes that help you grow and evolve on your path. It may be that none of this is empiracly proven, but pragmatically valuable none the less. 

Hmmm, this sounds like a poetic way to say: "let's take a decision based on unfounded claims". It is a slippery slope, and I'm pretty sure that none of us here on the forum actually do this in their daily life. Our lives are shaped very much by modern knowledge and technology, and rightly so.

The most evident example of this is the Bible. The teachings of the Bible is a moral code written thousands of years ago, based on the knowledge of the time. They got a few things right, and a whole lot of things completely wrong. Thousands of years later, thanks to advances in our understanding of the natural phenomena, we can make better judgement on a lot of issues discussed there. Our moral code is better, arguably.

Still, if you take the time to imagine that Bohm was discussiong Toltec concepts, and use his ideas to help yu flesh out details not covered by other Toltec authors. Then you delve deeply into pondering these thoughts, it could lead to some very valuable insights, and shifting of perspective.
This reminds me of the craze many years ago, when some new age guy discovered Heisenberg's law on uncertainty, and went ballistic on how modern science (quantum mechanics) confirmed the fact that we create our universe when we perceive it. It is an example of somebody taking a scientific theory (http://www.notjustatheory.com/ !) without actually understanding it and used it to ponder about our perception and the world. Reaching to the wrong conclusion.

We are doing it again. Christian apologists are doing it all the time, trying to prove the validity of their Bible. It's illogical.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 12:26:20 AM by Muffin »
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Offline Nick

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2014, 03:45:24 AM »
Hmmm, this sounds like a poetic way to say: "let's take a decision based on unfounded claims". It is a slippery slope, and I'm pretty sure that none of us here on the forum actually do this in their daily life. Our lives are shaped very much by modern knowledge and technology, and rightly so.

Just about any Atheist or mainstream scientist would say the same thing to everyone on this forum about our spiritual interests.

On what foundation do you base your decision to walk your spiritual path? Is that foundation 100% based in what would be considered a sound foundation of modern knowledge, and technology?

Just so you know, I consider skeptisim an essential component of my view on life. I have a pretty thorough knowledge of what a sound argument is, as well as fallacies, cognitive distortions, common misconceptions, etc. Save you some effort by showing that you arent talking to a proponent of the "new age" ideas of "believing makes it so", that can be traced back to the "New Thought" movement, and which ideas Disney makes a killing off of. Interestingly these ideas are bolstered by humanities distance fom nature, and blind trust of science, and technology; see hyperreality.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreality

« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 04:05:14 AM by Nick »
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Nick

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2014, 03:49:18 AM »

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Mst3fOl5vH0/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Mst3fOl5vH0"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mst3fOl5vH0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Mst3fOl5vH0</a>
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2014, 04:44:54 AM »
On what foundation do you base your decision to walk your spiritual path? Is that foundation 100% based in what would be considered a sound foundation of modern knowledge, and technology?

I would argue that I have never actually walked any kind of spiritual path. I did have some interest in the spiritual, the metaphysical, but it was due to some cleverly worded books that now I feel had very little substance.

As opposed to you, until recently I did not know much about reason, logic and specially about cognitive distortions. I am still learning, and the more I learn the more I see how little foundation all the and arguments discussed in spiritual circles, including this forum, have.
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

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Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2014, 04:58:36 AM »
<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Mst3fOl5vH0/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Mst3fOl5vH0"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mst3fOl5vH0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Mst3fOl5vH0</a>

He's just waxing philosophical thoughts about perceptions. Drawing analogies left and right.

 Since 1960 we made lots of discoveries about how the human brain and our perception works, both on a psychological and a biological level.

Modern neuroscience is still in its infancy (50+ years), yet it can tell us more about human perception and consciousness than all other "sacred" books put together.
Discoveries that can actually be tested, repeated, performed by others, proved or disproved.
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

www.sensoriumdei.org

Offline Muffin

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2014, 05:15:25 AM »
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329762.700-consciousness-onoff-switch-discovered-deep-in-brain.html?full=true#.U8lxuhnfrqA

I'll just leave this here.
Granted it's not much, and more research is needed to confirm it or disprove it, but anything is infinitely more than 0.
"The result of the manifestation is in exact proportion to the force of striving received from the shock." -Gurdjieff, Belzebub's Tales to his grandson

www.sensoriumdei.org

Offline Nick

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2014, 03:12:01 PM »
What brought you here was just words in a cleverly written book? How unfortunate.

I can test all the ideas in the sacred books of the world, others can repeat those experiments. When it comes to my personal experience of reality...
and Rudi this is an essential point, I hope I can convey it adequately to you...
it doesn't matter one iota whether anyone else can have the same experience of reality as me. It isn't even a little important to me. My experience is MINE, and I want it to be as uniquely my world as possible. What a dull drab world it is to live in the limited survival based fixation of the masses. Such is to live only to die.

I will die, but before I do will live savoring every morsal of experience. I will measure how well I have lived not by whether or not my experience is empiracly verifiable, but by the poetry I have infused into my bones. By whether or not I can see what is on the other side of the horizon of materiality.

To have forgotten that science is poetry, is to neglect what science essentially is for. Science as a whole is alive, it has an essential nature, and you can commun with it.

All the greatest scientists had poetry in their heart, and could see the poetry in science.
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

Offline Nick

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Re: David Bohm on reality
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2014, 03:16:12 PM »
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329762.700-consciousness-onoff-switch-discovered-deep-in-brain.html?full=true#.U8lxuhnfrqA

I'll just leave this here.
Granted it's not much, and more research is needed to confirm it or disprove it, but anything is infinitely more than 0.

I was typing up a point by point critique of the superficial in this experiment, then my browser crashed, and I lost it. Oh, well.

You are right it isn't much. I would also say they have likely discovered something of great value, just would bet it isn't what they think it is.
"As long as we confuse the myriad forms of the divine lila with reality, without perceiving the unity of Brahman underlying all these forms, we are under the spell of maya..."
 -Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism

 

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