Topic: Witchcraft and sorcery

[Nick]

Many of the practices in these two areas are similar to those practices by shamans esp. it seems those practiced by so called witches. There are obvious negative connotations connected to these titles but beyond the so called black magic into the so called white magic. What are the results of such practices and how do they relate to the shamanic path if at all?

[Michael]

Witchcraft and sorcery are shamanic. Lets not get into the 'real' meaning of shaman, or the purists will be falling all over us. They are interchangeable terms, although in the use of 'current' language, these terms do carry connotations, so that is why we use one rather than another.

in the end they all have the same ploy and limit.

their ploy is to use the world as part of the spiritual journey. this is variously described, but i think 'tantra' is the most evolved explanation.

the ordinary person uses the world, but also seeks rewards within the world. the spiritual aspirant seeks reward outside of the world, and the tantric employs the world for that end. this implies a philosophical position which believes the 'world' (maya) holds within it, the means to free as well as the more acknowledged means to entrap. not everyone on 'the path' agrees with that position.

the limit: in the end, you can't untie a bag from inside. tantra can only bring you to a position of 'enabled' or 'capable'. ie a position of power and knowledge. but power and knowledge are material things. the 'world' can't help you go beyond the 'world'. Kali can purify you, and introduce you to Shiv when you are ready. but then she can do no more.

this is the great trap of tantra: witchcraft, sorcery, shamanism or what have you. we get trapped by the power we gain thereby, and either don't want to give it up, get sidetracked by the material pleasures it brings, or we never had the core desire for ultimate freedom in the first place, and only employed the imagination for venal purposes.

This is why DJ said he was no longer interested in sorcery. he wanted more - he sought true freedom, and for that, he had to enter into absolute silence, where we cast aside everything.

shamanism is not for everyone, and it is dangerous. if you don't have a deep underlying ambivalence towards it, then best stay away. most of us in this forum do have some connection to the shamanic path, so it is important to realise that it is only a 'prop'. at end, we drop that, and stand without aids.

the real danger of tantra is that we learn ways to influence the world - that is what it is all about. and if successful, we weave ourselves deeper into a pit of desires. that is why people have become sensitised to such words as witchcraft and sorcery, because too many have fallen, and the entire species has often undergone serious catastrophes by using these methods for material outcomes. there is a deep and powerful antagonism in the human shared sub-conscious to psychic methods of will. there was a time when the awakened leaders of humanity gave up this knowledge, not just because of the horrific consequences of their abuse, but in order to gain something more significant.

that historical moment is repeated in each of us, as we seek to go into the final jump, which we do many many times in life. always remember, props are only props - if we want the real thing, we have to give up our little games.

in practice, a true shaman knows this, and does not place undue importance on that path. such a person eventually wanders off the shamanic path, and strikes off into the pathless.

[Jahn]

This is why DJ said he was no longer interested in sorcery. he wanted more - he sought true freedom, and for that, he had to enter into absolute silence, where we cast aside everything.

- if we want the real thing, we have to give up our little games.

in practice, a true shaman knows this, and does not place undue importance on that path. such a person eventually wanders off the shamanic path, and strikes off into the pathless.

To enter the pathless path, that may happen when we bump into our Selves. Our Dreamer is much bigger than us and when we realize that completely our role in earth life comes into a new perspective. To identify with the Dreamer and the purpose set by the dreamer is to carry the original intent. The originial intent merge us with our Dreamer and this is what oldtimers called the"Unio mystica". And they then referred to a union with God, something that is supported of the energies in Pisces. Pisces is most darkness and folly but Pisces also have the energy hidden for this re-union. We call it to be aligned with the Dreamer and that is when the Command of the Warrior becomes the Command of the Eagle.


 .~.

[erik]

Theun Mares discerns shamans/sorcerers and Warriors of Freedom.
It goes quite along the lines Michael outlined:

1) shamans/sorcerers use magic/power to manipulate their external world. They try to gain more and more power to control, and, hence, fall deeper and deeper into a trap. Eventually such a person (who has spent his life trying to control and manipulate life) is like a fly caught in spider's web.

2) Warriors of Freedom move in the opposite direction. They gain power by giving up its use for selfish purposes and rejecting any intention to control and manipulate world. That's their gateway to freedom.

[nichi]

Striking off into the pathless - I like that. To desist from magical operations gains its own sort of power, but even that is something desisted.

M, your post means a lot to me --- thanks.

[Shamaya]

What are the results of such practices and how do they relate to the shamanic path if at all?

Well, for me, it was the teaching of the craftsmanship of paganism that opened the doors for so much more.  By learning how to open myself up to experience that which lays beyond "normal" site.

M- so well put!!!

[Nick]

very nice M. Much to think about. I often have noticed the contradicting feelings toward the shamanic, sorcery, and witchcraft path as well as an attraction. I don't know which is stronger, that is something to explore.

It reminds me of the questions of the Path of High Adventure of the Path of Total Freedom? How does one in his or her state of limited knowledge, limited 'sight' decide which path to take? How do we know for certain that the Path of High Adventure doesn't have something in it's many mysteries that would be better for us than the Path of Total Freedom? It seems like a gamble... do I choose Freedom because it is the safer bet and because it sounds better? Or take a chance, role the die, and fly off to unknown worlds of High Adventure? (Didn't Joshua have some music about the path of High Adventure, or somethin?)


On another note what you've said has given me an idea for my comicbook M.

[erik]

It reminds me of the questions of the Path of High Adventure of the Path of Total Freedom? How does one in his or her state of limited knowledge, limited 'sight' decide which path to take? How do we know for certain that the Path of High Adventure doesn't have something in it's many mysteries that would be better for us than the Path of Total Freedom? It seems like a gamble... do I choose Freedom because it is the safer bet and because it sounds better?

Ask your heart.
For me it is about the answer to question: why am I here in this world, in this body?

[Nick]

I have asked the question many times...perhaps I'm not asking it right. Sometimes we can only see as far as we understand. you know? I want to see beyond that limit of understanding and I have in the past I believe, but not as an answer to this question. Still I shall of course keep asking.


Another question M. slightly related: the Dreamtime and the Dreaming?  wow what an big one...not much to say, except, what the heck is it? Can we still experience this Dreamtime or Dreaming of the Aboriginals? If not is there something similar we can. 

___________
From wikipedia (oh great wiki-pedia that knows all, tell us your secretes.  )

"Fred Alan Wolf opens chapter nine of The Dreaming Universe (1994) entitled The Dreamtime with a quote from The Last Wave, a film by Peter Weir:

    Aboriginals believe in two forms of time. Two parallel streams of activity. One is the daily objective activity ... The other is an infinite spiritual cycle called the "dreamtime," more real than reality itself. Whatever happens in the dreamtime establishes the values, symbols, and laws of Aboriginal society. Some people of unusual spiritual powers have contact with the dreamtime.

The traditions and lore of Australia's indigenous peoples belong to what may be the oldest continuous culture on Earth (circa 50,000 years). Indigenous Australian peoples conceive of all things beginning with The Dreaming or Altjeringa (also called the Dreamtime), a sacred 'once upon a time' [1] time out of time that forms an endemic cultural memeplex where archetypal shapeshifting ancestral Totemic Spirit Beings formed The Creation.

As Lawlor (1991: p.36) evocatively codifies:

    The great ancestral beings were vast, unbounded, intangible, vibratory bodies, similar to fields of energy. They created by drawing vibratory energy out of themselves and stabilizing this energy and by specifying or naming - the inner name is the potency of the form or creature. The comparable image is the creation of sounds, words, or songs from the vibration of breath. Aborigines refer to the Dreamtime creation as the world being "sung" into existence. [2]

In The Dreaming Everywhen of unbounded timelessness, these shapeshifting Totemic Spirit Beings (sometimes called Sky Heroes, or Creative Ancestors) dream: dream of waking, waking in dream. Their dreamings are of their future waking pastimes, dreaming their past."

"'Dreaming' is also often used to refer to an individual's or group's set of beliefs or spirituality. For instance, an Indigenous Australian might say that they have Kangaroo Dreaming, or Shark Dreaming, or Honey Ant Dreaming, or any combination of Dreamings pertinent to their 'country'. However, many Indigenous Australians also refer to the creation time as 'The Dreaming'."

[Michael]

The Last Wave was an interesting film, and also dealt with the travels of the White Men, who were Quetzalcoatl's clan. The Culture Heroes. Their journeys were traced by the authors of the Kon Tiki expedition across South America, and the Pacific. There were indications they made it to New Zealand, but no evidence has ever been found that they made it to Australia. This film was about the Sydney Aboriginals who knew of their arrival and the prophecy they left of a great tidal wave that would hit Sydney.

I have contacted the Aboriginal Dreamtime people of this area, in dreaming, where they told me of a sacred site near my home. I had a sense of the direction, and after some explorations I eventually found it. It is a lizard dreaming place, and I have taken very few people there, as it is a bit of a walk. I have also contacted the Dreamtime - a huge cave in some place in the Northern Territory, which I have never found.

I did a lot of 'study' of the old Aboriginals from certain books, one at least has since been recalled from publication by the aboriginals, as they felt it gave away too many secrets. Another famous book by Prof Elkin, who's son is a friend of mine, called Aboriginal Men of High Degree is a very good book - even his son said that was perhaps his father's most important book. (his son is very old now)

I can't see how anyone outside of Australia could have any possibility of contacting the Aboriginal Dreamtime - it is so closely woven into the land itself.

You ask about the path of High Adventure - DJ taught the shamanic path to CC, although he also warned about it. We naturally are also on the edge of the shamanic path, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as its knowledge is never used for selfish purposes.

Ian it is a little early for you to be asking these big questions, but not too early to understand the significance of the Path of Freedom - that should be written in your bones.

[Nick]

early perhaps, but much of this is line of questioning is for fun. I don't expect much in other words.
I actually have the book Kon Tiki, it was given to my ex-wife from her mother, but my ex never reads any book someone else suggests to her  , lol.
So now I have the book. I have not read it yet though.

Dreamtime is a very fascinating concept.

I know you said it is very early for me to ask, I wont trouble you with many more questions on the subject...just one curiosity more:

Do you have any idea how the Dreamtime supposedly came to be? In other words was it there before the aboriginals, was it something they created or helped create? How did it originate?

[Jahn]

early perhaps, but much of this is line of questioning is for fun. I don't expect much in other words.
I actually have the book Kon Tiki, it was given to my ex-wife from her mother, but my ex never reads any book someone else suggests to her  , lol.
So now I have the book. I have not read it yet though.

Kon Tiki by Thor Heyerdahl. I got it from my parents and read it for my children at bed time when they where in the adventure age of 5 to 6 years old. It was a strong journey these guys did. oing with the waves and hanging sharks upside down for instance.

 

[Michael]

There are two Kon Tiki books - one was more for popular market, which had some interesting stuff, and worth reading. the other book has more of the background info, and that is the one where they gave a lot of details about the White Men.

Ian, don't let me stop you from asking questions - just that its a little early to be making choices between being a third or second world warrior. we can't really make decisions about whether we want to 'stay back' in the vast astral world until we have done a thorougher exploration of all that means.

I'll get back to you about the Dreamtime.

[Nick]

oh, no worries there I've decided not to make decisions, pesky things they are. 

no seriously I know I don't know enough to make such a decision at this point. it is a big thing. There are no grand assumptions on my part as to the level of my experience the question about High Adventure or Freedom was mere fun and curiosity.

Dreamtime to is mostly curiosity but it such a fascinating concept that it may end in more than curiosity as I learn more. Heck, Uluru is on my list of places to go one day....

[erik]

Heh, decision-making is a tricky thing!

Michael, I remember when you sent me an email 7-8 years ago (not quite sure what we were discussing) and in it you outlined options one could take in life: either one goes with Spirit or remains in the daily world. It was quite difficult for me to say these words: 'I definitely go with Spirit'.

But I did and thought: 'Jesus, what am I getting myself into this time?'

I remember the very first decision I made (even earlier) and said it in a loud voice. It happened when I couldn't live any more as a 'normal and materialistic' human being.

I started to meditate and read about yoga and tried to understand what it is about. As I got it then, it was about 'becoming one with God'.

So I said: 'I want to become one with God!', and thought, 'Is it me who's talking???'

So it goes - decisions come along the way in their own time, and I, for example, was puzzled by them and did not understand what was happening or where these words were coming from!