Topic: Life and Death: Like a yin yang symmetry?

[Nick]

Interesting subject Michael. I can definitely ascribe to your approach to death.

I can find what you said about the process of dying that begins in the 20's to be true for me. It was in my early twenties I started to get a strange feeling I was slowly dying. At first thought, I wrote it off as paranoia, as the idea of death scares me. Intellectually it makes perfects sense, yes I am dying, as I am of course getting old. Yet there is a bit more to it than that, no? I never delved into trying to understand this but I guess now is the time to start.

I also feel more and more the urge to talk about my past. In my 20's I first noticed I was becoming more like my father than I wanted. Then came the realization that I wasn't the same "young" person. Then a desire to actually bring back, revitalize some of the past childhood strengths in the present. Strengths like mental agility, ability to properly handle/process emotion, vivid imagination, a good memory (mine seems to be trying to get worse), physical vitality (at least some of it), and spiritual experience of life (including the experience of awe and beauty at life). I've started really missing my childhood and all its components; friends, home town, school, old girl friends, my dad, and the child's mind and body. In general the past has started looking better than it ever had. This is odd for me as I was always the type to look to the present or the future not the past. Now I have even wished I had pictures so I could created a detailed photo album of my past.

The trick for me is separating the important from non important, grain from chaff. In this case an example is discarding the desire for simple nostalgia, and replacing it with the essential reason for this reflection on the past; the need to recapitulate it. To bring it all back to home to my core, before it is all brought back to the core at death.....I guess, that is my understanding so far.

You mention this reflection on our life beginning at the age of 57 onwards, do you feel it likely that this reflection can begin much earlier depending on the temperament and such of the person?

You said: "Around the age of 57 onwards, a process of reflection on our life begins, which intensifies the older we get. This is about the ‘unravelling’ process, which is what the post death period is all about, but we begin it towards the end of life, by reminiscing and talking about our past - recalling our salad days. Older people spend a lot of time reviewing, and retelling about their past - who they were, who they knew, and things that happened ‘back when’. This is a good process, as it prepares for the post death tasks, unfortunately it is rarely done well, such that people dwell on only a few highlights which they get stuck on, instead of a systematic recapitulation - a releasing of the energy stored in our memories."

I didn't read the whole thing, and will dig in more later.
If at 57 as we are moving closer to the end of this curve which you describe, I'm I right to guess that something similar to what happens at this age happens at a corresponding younger age? Let me clarify: As an old me reflects on the past approaching death; a young man reflects in his early years in preparation for life. True? I know that we do reflect to some degree in this way, but what I'm looking for is confirmation that there is indeed some identifiable (natural?) pattern that can be seen as the behaviors of old age reflecting those of youth but maybe in an opposite way. Then if this duality exists there must be a neutral point to create a trinity; like whatever work occurs pre-life and post-death? Then the whole issue of non-linear time, in which past, present, and future happen all at once as one....
 
Suffice it to say seems to really understand something this deep, the knowledge must stretch beyond the mind's capabilities to know.   

Any good practices to bring experiential, beyond intellectual knowingness of death to life?

[Michael]

No I don't recommend reminiscing. I was speaking of the common road. We who seek to waste no time and attain as much in this life as possible, take that reminiscing process of old age and apply it right now in our process. Except we do it with intent and effectiveness - we call it recapitulation.

That is the method, and that is the only method I recommend. idle reflection of the past may be an occasional automatic association, but should never become a habit. We clean out the energy deposited in our being in 'pockets of the past' with the dedicated technique of recapping.

Otherwise dwelling on the past is a waste of energy and depletes our magic coat. Past dwelling is a sign of having lost your inner magic wand. Silent meditation and recapping, are the only cure.

[erismoksha]

Ian,

The ages Michael is speaking about, coorelate with ones Saturn return. Your experiencing the paranoia, may have been a bit premature per the saturn return, but doesnt mean you werent dealing with a strong saturn aspect - for you may have been.

Right now I have saturn conjunct my midheaven in transit - ugh.

Here's an article on saturn returns:

http://astrology.about.com/od/advancedastrology/p/SaturnReturn.htm

Saturn Return

From Molly Hall Nagy,
Your Guide to Astrology.

What is the Saturn Return?: This is when the planet Saturn comes back to meet your natal Saturn. It takes about 29.5 years for this slow-mover to return to where it was when you were born. The Saturn return hits in the late twenties, and its impact is felt into the early thirties. There's a second (and possibly a third for the long-lived among us) Saturn return that hits between age 57-60.

Time to Grow Up: The Saturn Return is a wake-up call, and this is why so many fear it's sobering realities. If you've spent your twenties in a fog, coasting on your youthful charm, it becomes obvious that your foundation is too flimsy for the long haul. When you're young, there seems infinite time to decide what you want to be "when you grow up." Well, Father Time swoops down as you're nearing 30 to say, you're all grown up now, pick a path.

Time to Get Real:

Sometimes we make life choices before we really know who we are. At the Saturn return, some of these choices are revealed to be out of sinq with our true destiny. And it's a big deal, since there may be marriages and whole careers up for review. The U.S. Census reports a peak of divorces around age 30, when promises made in the blush of youth don't match the core of either person as they approach this turning point. On the other hand, Saturn may bring a fated relationship, that leads to a serious commitment with long-term potential.

The Dreams of Youth:

The Saturn return brings with it the pressure of time, and often the first awareness of your own mortality. You take stock of what it would take to achieve those big dreams, and often a sense of dread at ever getting there. But happily, it's a time when things like disciplne, focus and clear-sight come in to give you a kind of pragmatic hope. You'll figure out what's still possible, and make the changes necessary to get on track.

It's a crossroads period, when life-altering decisions are made . For example, at age 30, Vincent Van Gogh became a painter, instead of a minister.

Stripping Down:

The Saturn return often creates a crisis that puts you face-to-face with your fears. And many of these have deep roots in your psyche, but they're also about living up to societal expectations. Saturn causes a mini earthquake to the foundations, and this enables you to shake off what's not really You. Saturn's other alias is Lord of Karma, and here's the test of whether you can become your own authority. Can you discover an unshakable core self within you that will be the basis for a lifetime of growth?

Saturn and Depression:

Saturn has been known as the Great Malefic, whose transits are met with dread. But Saturn is simply the instigator of change, all meant to lead you toward healing and a real foundation of self. If you're in your Saturn return, and finding it hard to cope, get used to letting go of what's not working. When you hold on to things that Saturn is trying to break up, that's when the suffering is compounded.

Check out one of the Saturn return blogs, so you can share experiences, and not feel so alone. You'll soon see that most people feel confused, lost and even despairing or hopeless at this time.

Learning about your Saturn:

If you don't know your Saturn sign, look it up on the birth chart. Astrologers often say it's important to "Do Your Saturn," and this means taking tangible steps to master those qualities. Read about your Saturn sign, and look at how it aspects your other planets.

During my Saturn return, I found a journal with the Aries Ram in it (my Saturn sign) and this is where I worked out my thoughts. Seek out interpretations, and spend time figuring out for yourself what the Taskmaster is expecting. Read up on Saturn in each of the four elements, the qualities, houses and of course, the all-important Zodiac sign.

Rewards and Responsibilities:

The Saturn return makes it clear what you've been up to for the last 29 or so years. Some "old souls" that made wise choices from the get-go may find it to be a passage where things are solidified. Not all marriages fall apart, and some grow stronger when they make it through this maturation phase together.

Another Chance:

If you resist the changes that Saturn brings, there's always the second go-round. But that isn't advised, since it might be a farther fall to the bottom. The example of a Saturn resister would be someone devoted to a job that makes them miserable, or stuck in a relationship that's harmful to their spirit. Just like the I-Ching says, chaos is another name for opportunity. And listening to the pressures and doubts of your Saturn return brings on the breakdown before the breakthrough. Saturn is trying to lead you to yourself.

The Lowdown:

As Lord of Karma, Saturn brings you what you've earned through your disciplined pursuit of goals and experience. You'll find out during the Saturn return what you've manifested up to that point, how well you've used your talents. No wonder it's a feared transition -- this is like the mid-semester exam!

In myth, Saturn is also the God of the Harvest, and it's harvestime during your Saturn return. If nothing's been sown, and therefore, very little reaped, you'll realize it's time to get busy. The scythe of Saturn prunes, cuts away the useless bits, and that can feel like a death of the self. Saturn often brings a death to the old ways of doing things, but later on, you're likely to say, "Good riddance!" The death phase is never easy, but keep in mind that rebirth will come.

Saturn's realm is responsibility, and will show you how to grow through relationships, raising childing, pursuing a challenging career, finding discipine for an art, etc. If you've indulged in wishful thinking, Saturn finds a way to make this painfully obvious. It's not just designed to humiliate you, but to inspire you to stand on solid ground.

Saturn is like the wise old man who sees right through your excuses, and empty boasts. Try to make friends with Saturn through discipline and finding a step-by-step path to your goals. It's the simple, but not always easy task of making your dream a reality by doing it on a daily basis.

When serious Saturn overtakes your life during this hugely important initiation into adulthood, it's important to remember that 'This too shall pass.' The harshness of this period can make you feel washed up, parched, dishillusioned. But it can also be a time of taking stock, liberating yourself from all kinds of baggage, and starting anew with a clearer sense of purpose. It's never too late to be who you were meant to be. The Saturn return reminds you of what truly important, and makes sure you're on the path to claim your highest potential.

[Nick]

oh, I was not specific.... 

To Michael, what you said in your reply to me is what I was trying to say but in my own words. This is what I meant by separating the important from the non important i.e. non important equals reminiscing, important equals recaping. Like you said get rid of the reminiscing or as I called it the nostalgia (a kind of homesickness as I see it).
Yes I agree with you, what you said, is what I said, or meant to convey.

Ellen and Michael: My main question was is there a reflection between the desires of old age and youth? A kind of symmetry in what we want when we are young and what we want when we are old? Obviously the whole thing is connected I'm trying to understand the patterns of change we go through from birth to death.

Ellen's reply confirms some things, but I don't know much about astrology.     

[erismoksha]

Let me clarify: As an old me reflects on the past approaching death; a young man reflects in his early years in preparation for life. True? I know that we do reflect to some degree in this way, but what I'm looking for is confirmation that there is indeed some identifiable (natural?) pattern that can be seen as the behaviors of old age reflecting those of youth but maybe in an opposite way. Then if this duality exists there must be a neutral point to create a trinity; like whatever work occurs pre-life and post-death? Then the whole issue of non-linear time, in which past, present, and future happen all at once as one....

If you're talking quantum theory, there's an 'older you' on the path, in the future, who is wholly alive, influencing the 'you' here and now, if this is what you mean, this duality, then yes, its true, and no, its not true.

What I mean by this, is this. Lets play it out.

Im on a map. Im standing *start here* in the Now. There are many, many lines of possibilities for my future, for a 'me' in my future.

Behind me, there are other 'lines' where ive come from, what led me to being the 'me' I am. I would be a different 'me' if Id made different choices. Like if I hadnt chose to be a parent, for example.

But I made those choices so a 'line' of 'that' exists, forming through the undercurrent, a future, that cannot be changed.

I take a step, make a choice, that forms and creates, and gets me closer to one of the 'me's' as a 57 year old. I could be a 'dead me' who never reached 57, if I chose a life of recklessness. There's another 'me' however, who lives healthy, who, by product of my choices, is me there.

One of the great things about a seer, is to be able to 'see ahead' to these possibilities, and make them so. The quantum truth is, they are all happening in some manifestation, in the future, but to make them actual, for the 'me' who is in the Now, depends on each and every little choice I make, down to the milisecond.

Now, one way to work with this, is to 'see' the 57 year old Ian in the future, you want to be - align with 'that,' and then, make deliberate choices, by aligning intent, to that individual, that purpose, whatever goal, that may be.

Thats part of the mystery of parallel realities. They do exist, but its a matter of making them manifest.

In opposite theory, recapitulation - there is purpose in this as well, per the same principle, say you've had painful or difficult experiences in the past, by recapping, you can 'undo' whatever difficult programs which were done, or subconscious damage, and then, thereby, align with a future 'you' who may have not been a possibility on the map, or at least, 'seeable' until, you did the work that you did, via recapping.

Does any of this make sense, or did I lose you yet?

[Nick]

If you're talking quantum theory, there's an 'older you' on the path, in the future, who is wholly alive, influencing the 'you' here and now, if this is what you mean, this duality, then yes, its true, and no, its not true.

Sigh, it is okay, this is why I am working on my grammar, word usage and understanding. I have a very hard time expressing my thoughts. Best to give up on this one for now until I have a better understanding of what I am trying to say.