Topic: Soma Book Club: The Masnavi (Book 1)(Updated post)

[Nick]

I envision this not as a "book club" in the traditional sense, but as a harmonious group effort. Us working together to come to a deeper understanding and appreciation of Rumi's work, leading to the same for each of our lives. Kind of like when we all do our ceremonies at the same time with Tom. A group effort not only to study the Masnavi, but to bring us closer together.
Any suggestions to achieve this vision are greatly appreciated.   

Here is the whole Masnavi online:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/masnavi/index.htm

I'll be reading it to my daughter every night till we're finished. I want to make it one of a small collection of stories both her and I know by heart  . I figure sharing my journey through the Masnavi with you all will help me understand it, esp. if you all join in with your experiences of the story.

No rules for this study...One recommendation, apply the wisdom to life! Then come in here and share the results of your experiential learning. Rumi says about book 4, which I'm sure applies to all of the books in the series: " Whoever reads it for entertainment is himself or herself an idle hour. Whoever hears in it a value to use now in soul-making becomes himself or herself that necessary."

That said whoever wishes to participate feel free. I'm sure there are other translations of the Masnavi online somewhere if you want a different one.

I'm going to finish book one with my daughter by the end of the week. Then I will share my initial thoughts, which will just be "what I believe" certain things mean and what I intend to do to discover the true meaning of what I read. Then I will share that when the time comes.

Remember, slow process for me, don't be surprised if I disappear for a bit after my second post. I will keep going with this till completion. Please join me folks, and don't wait for my next post to jump in, esp. if you know the poem already.

I'll only be posting the prologue of each section here.

"THE SPIRITUAL COUPLETS
OF
MAULANA JALALU-'D-DlN MUHAMMAD RUMI"


Book I.


PROLOGUE.


HEARKEN to the reed-flute, how it complains,
Lamenting its banishment from its home:
"Ever since they tore me from my osier bed,
My plaintive notes have moved men and women to tears.
I burst my breast, striving to give vent to sighs,
And to express the pangs of my yearning for my home.
He who abides far away from his home
Is ever longing for the day ho shall return.
My wailing is heard in every throng,
In concert with them that rejoice and them that weep.
Each interprets my notes in harmony with his own feelings,
But not one fathoms the secrets of my heart.
My secrets are not alien from my plaintive notes,
Yet they are not manifest to the sensual eye and ear.
Body is not veiled from soul, neither soul from body,
Yet no man hath ever seen a soul."
This plaint of the flute is fire, not mere air.
Let him who lacks this fire be accounted dead!
'Tis the fire of love that inspires the flute,l
'Tis the ferment of love that possesses the wine.
The flute is the confidant of all unhappy lovers;
Yea, its strains lay bare my inmost secrets.
Who hath seen a poison and an antidote like the flute?
Who hath seen a sympathetic consoler like the flute?
The flute tells the tale of love's bloodstained path,
It recounts the story of Majnun's love toils.
None is privy to these feelings save one distracted,
As ear inclines to the whispers of the tongue.
Through grief my days are as labor and sorrow,
My days move on, hand in hand with anguish.
Yet,, though my days vanish thus, 'tis no matter,
Do thou abide, O Incomparable Pure One!
But all who are not fishes are soon tired of water;
And they who lack daily bread find the day very long;
So the "Raw" comprehend not the state of the "Ripe;"
Therefore it behoves me to shorten my discourse.
Arise, O son! burst thy bonds and be free!
How long wilt thou be captive to silver and gold?
Though thou pour the ocean into thy pitcher,
It can hold no more than one day's store.
The pitcher of the desire of the covetous never fills,
The oyster-shell fills not with pearls till it is content;
Only he whose garment is rent by the violence of love
Is wholly pure from covetousness and sin.
Hail to thee, then, O LOVE, sweet madness!
Thou who healest all our infirmities!
Who art the physician of our pride and self-conceit!
Who art our Plato and our Galen!
Love exalts our earthly bodies to heaven,
And makes the very hills to dance with joy!
O Iover, 'twas love that gave life to Mount Sinai,
When "it quaked, and Moses fell down in a swoon."
Did my Beloved only touch me with his lips,
I too, like the flute, would burst out in melody.
But he who is parted from them that speak his tongue,
Though he possess a hundred voices, is perforce dumb.
When the rose has faded and the garden is withered,
The song of the nightingale is no longer to be heard.
The BELOVED is all in all, the lover only veils Him;
The BELOVED is all that lives, the lover a dead thing.
When the lover feels no longer LOVE's quickening,
He becomes like a bird who has lost its wings. Alas!
How can I retain my senses about me,
When the BELOVED shows not the light of His countenance?
LOVE desires that this secret should be revealed,
For if a mirror reflects not, of what use is it?
Knowest thou why thy mirror reflects not?
Because the rust has not been scoured from its face.
If it were purified from all rust and defilement,
It would reflect the shining of the SUN Of GOD.
O friends, ye have now heard this tale,
Which sets forth the very essence of my case.

[nichi]

Before we get started, I just have to vent my exhilaration here! 
I think I mentioned before, that I began in bhakti and the ecstatic, spent some time in toltec, and now find myself back in the bhakti and ecstatic poets.

Whilst I was studying strictly-toltec, I heard some very unkind things said about Rumi, that took me aback. One die-hard toltec in my forum referred to Rumi as "pap". (It was eeevil!  What a meanie!   )   Another die-hard toltec "teacher" accused me of "liking all that love-love-love bullshit". What a stinker.

Yes, Rumi has a whole metaphor and set of imagery running throughout his work, of Love and Lovers and the Friend, but I submit that all throughout Rumi's work, we are not talking about some trivialized, watered-down concept of "love-love-love", but rather, something far more complex:: in so many of Rumi's references, the double exists. I've even speculated that Shams of Tabriz was that extreme rarity -- an extant double!

And if you've ever spun, or done any sort of concerted, repetitive physical or dance-movement that creates a vortex, you think twice about blowing off the whirling dervishes as something so empty as new-age-bullshit. No, no .... I beg to differ. There be power here ... and spirit!

I picked up reading Rumi in the darkest time of my life. He understands the human heart. He understands grief and sorrow and the gnashing of teeth ... he transforms that. "All grief and longing is the longing for God." This meant a great deal with me, at the time --- he who understood "stopping at mean-spirited roadhouses." So in reading him, especially in large chunks at a time, I rise ...

It's hard to read one ghazal at a time and get the effect: this will be interesting for me. I tend to read 10 or so pieces of his at a time, and get my spirit spinning. 

Nick, I couldn't be happier that you want to do this, and now that I've gotten this bit out of my system, I feel I can begin!  Thank-you!

[erik]

Before we get started, I just have to vent my exhilaration here! 
I think I mentioned before, that I began in bhakti and the ecstatic, spent some time in toltec, and now find myself back in the bhakti and ecstatic poets.

Whilst I was studying strictly-toltec, I heard some very unkind things said about Rumi, that took me aback. One die-hard toltec in my forum referred to Rumi as "pap". (It was eeevil!  What a meanie!   )   Another die-hard toltec "teacher" accused me of "liking all that love-love-love bullshit". What a stinker.

That makes "Toltec" sound like something something seriously eeevil.
So what's about that Toltec thing?

[nichi]

That makes "Toltec" sound like something something seriously eeevil.
So what's about that Toltec thing?

Well, I was joking about the "evil meanie"!
What is it about the internet toltec-culture? I honestly don't know, e!   A confusion about what it means to "stalk" and to be a "warrior"? I gave up trying to figure it out.

[erik]

Well, I was joking about the "evil meanie"!
What is it about the internet toltec-culture? I honestly don't know, e!   A confusion about what it means to "stalk" and to be a "warrior"? I gave up trying to figure it out.

If it is such a mess why do you call it "Toltec" in the first place? Any denominator would do...

[nichi]

If it is such a mess why do you call it "Toltec" in the first place? Any denominator would do...

Only because they call themselves toltec!  To the degree that discussion is restricted to that-and-only-that which has a toltec perspective. Of course, this is only an internet, cultural phenomenon, methinks. (I hope.)

At any rate, my point was that I was grateful to Nick for beginning an unabashed study of Rumi.

[Michael]

i'd be happy to do a rumi series - as long as i didn't have to read too much... which is often the case with poets.

[Michael]

OK lets read and ponder the quoted text and get back with whatever thoughts pop into our mind about it or from it... over the next week, we could toss our feelings back and forth.

[erismoksha]

HEARKEN to the reed-flute, how it complains,
Lamenting its banishment from its home:
"Ever since they tore me from my osier bed,
My plaintive notes have moved men and women to tears.

The reed flute was used for a couple things. One, music, but also in religious rituals. Its across the board, pretty much, the flute is us, hollowed out (soul free of ego or desires); However, tore from the osier bed, is 'us' being tore from our original condition. We're separated from home.

Now, why, what is the purpose then? The estatic mystic is giving this allegory to express that - its to make music by golly. Its to express love. And it can only be truly know, with first, separation, which will lead to an inevitable union.

Like that goof crowley once said we're divided for loves sake, for the chance of union. He did not invent that concept tho.

I burst my breast, striving to give vent to sighs,
And to express the pangs of my yearning for my home.

So its kinda sad, really, its ripped from its home (soul) but first must be hollowed out, the flute, which is painful, for even the sound to be heard. How can spirit 'hear us' unless we first hollow out our own soul?

He who abides far away from his home
Is ever longing for the day ho shall return.
My wailing is heard in every throng,
In concert with them that rejoice and them that weep.

Those also whove experienced the dark night of the soul.

Each interprets my notes in harmony with his own feelings,
But not one fathoms the secrets of my heart.

and this is a dilemma, for while some may try to empathize, unless they've been hollowed out as well, can they really understand, and even those that can empathize, cannot give this soul relief. Only one thing can.

My secrets are not alien from my plaintive notes,
Yet they are not manifest to the sensual eye and ear.
Body is not veiled from soul, neither soul from body,
Yet no man hath ever seen a soul."

Its all inner. There isnt really a veil, its all one, already. But because of duality, we still 'feel' torn, and we're still torn away from something.

This plaint of the flute is fire, not mere air.
Let him who lacks this fire be accounted dead!
'Tis the fire of love that inspires the flute,l
'Tis the ferment of love that possesses the wine.

That goes more into what crowley said. The wine represents immortality, nectar of the gods. But only love can give one immortality. Its the fuel, the method and way, to achieve union again. However, the estatic mystic, must feel the pains of that separation and loss, first. Like the flute has to be hollowed out tho, first to be able to play music, and emptied. bruce lee called it the 'silent flute,' which really, was something to represent ultimate emptiness. But there's more of a tranquility, and peace, with his own expression of the flute, than this one. It doesnt play music, his, because there is no suffering anymore - union, has already taken place. The longing has already been heard, fire reached where it needed to reach. But music continues for this one, to be heard, because is still, trying to be heard, and the more music plays, there is no peace, no union, til then. However, still, part of the purpose in coming to existence, is to make music, and that can only be done through love.

The flute is the confidant of all unhappy lovers;
Yea, its strains lay bare my inmost secrets.

The inner coming into the outer. Lovers here part cause there is no permanence.

Who hath seen a poison and an antidote like the flute?
Who hath seen a sympathetic consoler like the flute?

The same vehicle that can make one free, like music, can lift one up, or bring one down in sadness and despair when its story is told.

The flute tells the tale of love's bloodstained path,
It recounts the story of Majnun's love toils.
None is privy to these feelings save one distracted,
As ear inclines to the whispers of the tongue.

Only the lovers suffer. You dont know suffering at all, you've never known love.

Through grief my days are as labor and sorrow,
My days move on, hand in hand with anguish.
Yet,, though my days vanish thus, 'tis no matter,
Do thou abide, O Incomparable Pure One!
But all who are not fishes are soon tired of water;
And they who lack daily bread find the day very long;

One can only take being out of their element for so long.

So the "Raw" comprehend not the state of the "Ripe;"
Therefore it behoves me to shorten my discourse.
Arise, O son! burst thy bonds and be free!

The 'son' is the soul reborn.

How long wilt thou be captive to silver and gold?
Though thou pour the ocean into thy pitcher,
It can hold no more than one day's store.

Things of the world cannot every satisfy one for long, the things we can acquire, will not be able to make us happy.

The pitcher of the desire of the covetous never fills,
The oyster-shell fills not with pearls till it is content;
Only he whose garment is rent by the violence of love
Is wholly pure from covetousness and sin.

Things in the material are just that - things asquired by desire alone. We all have to have some desire, but its how we channel that desire, that desire which has to do with love. Not seeking the impermanent things, which eventually, we'll do nothing but lose anyway.

Hail to thee, then, O LOVE, sweet madness!
Thou who healest all our infirmities!
Who art the physician of our pride and self-conceit!
Who art our Plato and our Galen!
Love exalts our earthly bodies to heaven,
And makes the very hills to dance with joy!

Its about immortality, but its interesting the estatic mystic says 'earthy bodies,' not etheric, or any of that. That requires a transformation of the body, which also he has not separated from the soul, as he said the body and soul aren't veiled from each other. The soul is the inner lining of the body itself.

O Iover, 'twas love that gave life to Mount Sinai,
When "it quaked, and Moses fell down in a swoon."
Did my Beloved only touch me with his lips,
I too, like the flute, would burst out in melody.
But he who is parted from them that speak his tongue,
Though he possess a hundred voices, is perforce dumb.
When the rose has faded and the garden is withered,
The song of the nightingale is no longer to be heard.
The BELOVED is all in all, the lover only veils Him;
The BELOVED is all that lives, the lover a dead thing.
When the lover feels no longer LOVE's quickening,
He becomes like a bird who has lost its wings. Alas!
How can I retain my senses about me,
When the BELOVED shows not the light of His countenance?
LOVE desires that this secret should be revealed,
For if a mirror reflects not, of what use is it?
Knowest thou why thy mirror reflects not?
Because the rust has not been scoured from its face.
If it were purified from all rust and defilement,
It would reflect the shining of the SUN Of GOD.
O friends, ye have now heard this tale,
Which sets forth the very essence of my case.

We are here to be mirrors of God, to reflect that love into the world. The mirror has to be pure and void of smudges, dust, to truly reflect that perfection.

[Nick]

I'm going to finish book one with my daughter by the end of the week. Then I will share my initial thoughts, which will just be "what I believe" certain things mean and what I intend to do to discover the true meaning of what I read. Then I will share that when the time comes.""""


I've not finished with my pondering and such. But, here is a bit to get things going. I'm focusing on the prologue for this post. At the end of the prologue he states that it sets forth the essence of his case. So I think we would be wise to take special care with this section.

I really need to listen to the sound of a reed flute. I don't really know what one sounds like.

At one point he says that everyone interprets his notes in harmony with their own feelings, but none fathom the secrets of his heart. Is it just his heart, or if one can not fathom the secrets of his heart can they fathom the secrets of their own?

When I listen to music I notice there are different ways I can listen. I can listen kind of superficially or I can really focus in on the music. Then I can differentiate between notes, I can listen to the sounds themselves as well as listen for the emotional context the songs is conveying. Fast music may have an exciting rhythm or slow may relax, some music is obviously angry and others happy.

But, our reed flute is telling us that everyone hears the music but none fathom some essential hidden aspect of his cries. 

Notice I've been calling the reed flute a he. 

Then he goes on to draw a line between sensing and seeing:

"My secrets are not alien from my plaintive notes,
Yet they are not manifest to the sensual eye and ear.
Body is not veiled from soul, neither soul from body,
Yet no man hath ever seen a soul."

If not manifest to sensual eye and ear, yet body is not veiled from soul...and the reed flute knows the secrets of its own heart which is how it knows others don't know. Then there is a way for these secrets to be manifest unto us, it just isn't with the senses. We have all here, most likely, had none sensory, and alter perceptual experiences. The question here is what does the reed flute experience in its heart. The reed flute is symbol for something. Eris has her view, which is cool, but I'm staying open for now. The reed flute has a heart, a core, a center in which lie secrets.

I believe it is telling us we can fathom these secrets by listening to it's cries, to it's music, to the expression of it's desire to go home, but we have to change the way in which we listen.

I know there is a way to listen that goes beyond sensing with the ears, but I don't know how to explain. I'm going to do some meditations on different sounds, see if I can push a little beyond the surface sounds to the core.

I'm going to try listening to a lot of different sounds. With each I'll try to focus in on different aspects of the sound. Then I will try to somehow merge with the sound.

I'm going to make the next week a sound week. For this week even in my recapitulations I'll seek out the memory of sounds, try to hear them anew.
With dreams and in dreaming I'll try to focus on the sounds.

It is the fire of love that inspires the flute. One question for now...a recurring question for me: What is love?

I remember Kris saying something about us being put here to create more love, something to ponder.


I like the passion in Rumi's work, there is something invigorating about reading his work. What do you all think?

[Michael]

what ellen said about the flute is very good. i play the flute, and other wind instruments. the flute has a special sound - a purity of sound.

i have returned to the bamboo flute after years at the silver flute - the silver flute has a rich smooth full tone, but the bamboo flute has a special quality which in the end I prefer - an organic tone. I also have not heard a reed flute, at least not that i can recall. i suspect it has a thinner sound, with a higher pitch.

Rumi belongs to the southern sufi - almost completely Bhakti. Bhakti works on the absorption learning technique - it is slim of method, and big on absorbing knowledge directly through intense and long devotion. It raises the emotional connection we have with our source, and speaks thus directly to our soul.

yes, as said, this speaks to the inner longing of our soul for the other, the completeness. While Julie was at home on Saturday, we were in the garden, drinking our chai masala tea in the morning sun, and she was reading a book about a chef's travels in India. She became overwhelmed with emotional longing to return to India, despite all its pain and frustrations. She said it was like being in love - that something out there called her to some kind of fulfillment - that she can't bear to live without it!

Rumi is speaking his unbearable love for his Beloved, which in the end is God.

A curious point on this. There are two main paths, Bhakti and Jnana. Jnana seeks complete absorption into the infinite, but Bhakti doesn't. Bhakti seeks to remain outside absorption, as it wants to forever adore and worship it's Beloved. You can't do that if you merge with it - it is only by remaining separate that one whole being can forever have an object of worship. This is a very religious philosophical point that has been continuously referred to by thousands of years of Bhakti saints in India. It has some similarities to buddhisatva - remaining outside to serve.

However they are only curious asides - to get Rumi's knowledge, we put to one side our intellectual mind, and allow ourselves to feel as he feels - only thus can we share in his vision.

[TIOTIT]

Check this link...open the play list...track 6
Tales of the Ney...it's 12 mins long....it's a
good site to get familiar with a little history
of Rumi...

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/rumi/index.shtml#musicalscore

[Nick]

Thank you Tiotit

[Nick]

"The essence of Being/Truth/God is devoid of every form and quality, and hence unmanifested, yet it is inseparable from every form and phenomenon either material or spiritual. It is often understood to imply that every phenomenon is an aspect of Truth and at the same time attribution of existence to it is false. This apparent paradox of the relationship of creator and created is the basis of Sufi metaphysics. The chief aim of all Sufis then is to let go of all notions of duality, including a conception of an individual self, and to realize the Divine unity.

Sufis generally teach in personal groups, as the counsel of the master is considered necessary for the growth of the pupil. They make extensive use of parable, allegory, and metaphor, and it is held by Sufis that meaning can only be reached through a process of seeking the truth, and knowledge of oneself. Although philosophies vary among different Sufi orders, Sufism as a whole is primarily concerned with direct personal experience"

A significant part of Oriental literature comes from the Sufis, who created books of poetry containing the teachings of the Sufis. Some of the more notable examples of this poetry are the Walled Garden of Truth, Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, the Conference of the Birds and the Masnavi.

Schools were developed, concerning themselves with topics of mystical experience, education of the heart to purify it of baser instincts, the love of God, and approaching God through progressive stages (maqaam) and states (haal).

The schools were championed by reformers who felt their core values and manners were threatened, as the material prosperity of society seemed to them to be eroding the spiritual life.Uwais al-Qarni, Harrm Bin Hian, Hasan Ul-Basri and Sayid Ibn Ul Mussib are regarded as the first mystics among the "Taabi'een" in Islam. Rabia was a female Sufi and known for her love and passion for God. Junayd was among the first theorists of Sufism; he concerned himself with ‘fanaa’ and ‘baqaa’, the state of annihilating the self in the presence of the divine, accompanied by clarity concerning worldly phenomena derived from the altitude of that perspective.
-
Important Sufis of the modern era include Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Bawa Muhaiyaddeen, Prof. Muhammad Tahir ul Qadri, Muzaffer Ozak, Javad Nurbakhsh, Shaykh Al Islam Mohamed Madani Ashrafi-al-Jilani and Murshid Samuel L. Lewis. These individuals have in some measure been responsible for the continued introduction and spread of the Sufi path in the modern West.

The Six Subtleties

Realities of The Heart:[6] Drawing from Qur'anic verses, virtually all Sufis distinguish Lataif-e-Sitta (The Six Subtleties), Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi & Akhfa. These lataif (singular : latifa) designate various psychospiritual "organs", or faculties of sensory perception.

Sufic development involves the awakening of these spiritual centers of perception that lie dormant in an individual. Each center is associated with a particular color and general area of the body, oftentimes with a particular prophet, and varies from order to order. The help of a guide is considered necessary to help activate these centers. After undergoing this process, the dervish is said to reach a certain type of "completion."

The person gets acquainted with the lataif one by one by Muraqaba (Sufi meditation), Dhikr (Remembrance of God) and purification of one's psyche of negative thoughts, emotions, and actions. Loving God and one's fellow, irrespective of his or her race, religion or nationality, and without consideration for any possible reward, is the key to ascension according to Sufis.

These six "organs" or faculties: Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi & Akhfa, and the purificative activities applied to them, contain the basic orthodox Sufi philosophy. The purification of the elementary passionate nature (Tazkiya-I-Nafs), followed by cleansing of the spiritual heart so that it may acquire a mirror-like purity of reflection (Tazkiya-I-Qalb) and become the receptacle of God's love (Ishq) and illumination of the spirit (Tajjali-I-Ruh). This process is fortified by emptying of egoic drives (Taqliyya-I-Sirr) and remembrance of God's attributes (Dhikr), and completion of journey by purification of the last two faculties, Khafi and Akhfa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muraqaba#Stages_of_Muraqaba

[Nick]

You said a lot of great stuff! No way to cover it all now but I'll contribute something.

The reed flute was used for a couple things. One, music, but also in religious rituals. Its across the board, pretty much, the flute is us, hollowed out (soul free of ego or desires); However, tore from the osier bed, is 'us' being tore from our original condition. We're separated from home.

Now, why, what is the purpose then? The estatic mystic is giving this allegory to express that - its to make music by golly. Its to express love. And it can only be truly know, with first, separation, which will lead to an inevitable union.

Like that goof crowley once said we're divided for loves sake, for the chance of union. He did not invent that concept tho.

I remember those crowlian days of study. I never went really deep into his world but he did say some interesting stuff. Most of which was taken from somewhere else. Like the statement you make above. We are divided for loves sake, for the chance of union.

I never really understood it prob because I don't know love well enough. If we are divided for love so as to become united again, then the purpose is to experience separation, love, and union. If we were just in union all the time and never knew the pain of separation would we know love? If we would would we know it as well as we do when we also know separation?  Is it really necessary to know separation at all so as to be able to contrast it with union? If it is necessary then that explains why we spend so much time in forgetfulness, so we can forget union, forget our beloved, and thus more fully be able to understand what it is to be completely separate. In other words if we remembered our home, if we remembered what union was like, then we would in our minds still have some degree of connection of sorts, but if we forget almost entirely then when we do remember there is this big striking difference.

sigh, there must be so much to this that I can't begin to know at this time....thinking about it makes me want to know, really want to know.

So its kinda sad, really, its ripped from its home (soul) but first must be hollowed out, the flute, which is painful, for even the sound to be heard. How can spirit 'hear us' unless we first hollow out our own soul?

Those also whove experienced the dark night of the soul.

and this is a dilemma, for while some may try to empathize, unless they've been hollowed out as well, can they really understand, and even those that can empathize, cannot give this soul relief. Only one thing can.

Yes, there is always a divide between those who know from experience and those who only know the idea.

Another divide between those who know the world through their head and those who know it through their heart.

Its all inner. There isnt really a veil, its all one, already. But because of duality, we still 'feel' torn, and we're still torn away from something.

That goes more into what crowley said. The wine represents immortality, nectar of the gods. But only love can give one immortality. Its the fuel, the method and way, to achieve union again. However, the estatic mystic, must feel the pains of that separation and loss, first. Like the flute has to be hollowed out tho, first to be able to play music, and emptied. bruce lee called it the 'silent flute,' which really, was something to represent ultimate emptiness. But there's more of a tranquility, and peace, with his own expression of the flute, than this one. It doesnt play music, his, because there is no suffering anymore - union, has already taken place. The longing has already been heard, fire reached where it needed to reach. But music continues for this one, to be heard, because is still, trying to be heard, and the more music plays, there is no peace, no union, til then. However, still, part of the purpose in coming to existence, is to make music, and that can only be done through love.

Yes, here is where that question of the two bhakti schools comes into play. One says full union and the other says stay separate so as to continue to experience love. It is a hard question, is like; to be or not to be.

Union is like death, no longer is there a "me". A very difficult question.

I'm going to do some more research on the world of bhakti in the different traditions, love, and Sufism. I don't really feel like a bhakti man right now, but there is something in all this devotional stuff that I want for my path right now.

I'm trying to read Rumi with out my intellectual mind. More later....
Hope you guys haven't lost interest.