Topic: Amazing Grace

[Angela]

I decided to put up the Christmas tree and decorations today.  Getting everything ready for my son and i to decorate the tree...It's always such fun!  So, I put on some Pachabel, Mozart and a cd of Placido Domingo, Diana Ross and Jose Carreras - "Christmas in Vienna".  This song came on... Diana Ross singing this version of Amazing Grace...I've always loved this song...my Mom used to sing it to us a cappella when we were kids.

Brings new meaning this season


Amazing Grace
(John Newton)

Amazing grace
How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost
But now I'm found
Was blind
But now I see

The earth shall soon
Dissolve like snow
The sun forget to shine
But God who brought me here below
Will be forever mine

Through him many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come
'T was grace that brought me here thus far
And grace will lead me home


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldAxy5nLkq8

[Michael]

interesting you mention this song - as I have previously said, I first rear the music, then listen to the words. The music to this song - the melody - is very beautiful.

However recently I was drawn to the words in a way I hadn't previously considered. This man was saying this song reflected some of the worst of Christian sentiment, especially US Christianity - he was American, and talking about American society.

He pointed out the line:
"That saved a wretch like me".

He said Christianity is always going on about this grovelling thing - what a sinner I am and so forth. He maintained it reflected a deep psychological disturbance in Christians. I don't recall the full thesis he put forward, but it did cause me to look twice at the sentiment of the song.

I haven't made my mind up about it, but I do know that many other religions don't go in for this sinning stuff. Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism for example. Hindus don't have a Devil, although they have plenty of demons and nasty guys. But no 'opposing' force of the 'Good' that is without complexity and its own path.

anyway - that's just for reflection - i don't have any real answers to it.

[Michael]

now that I've dragged this out of the back drops of my mind, I can't help feeling it would have to apply (if it does apply) to all Christians - I can't see how American Christians are any different in this respect.

I sense he does have a valid criticism, but at the same time, the idea of having to 'go down to the bone' before we can find some form of deliverance, exists in almost all traditions.

But in those traditions which have dedicated 'pathways' to some kind of freedom achievement (Toltec, Buddhism and Sufism being the most obvious) the grovelling bit comes at a defined point along the way. ie, its not a type of common state, to which we all adhere without some kind of steps through a gateway.

... just a few thoughts ... can't decide if I agree with this guy or not, or better - where i agree.

[nichi]

I used to play organ for one of the little spiritualist churches I belonged to. We couldn't at the time find anything but the traditional christian hymnals. What you're saying is so true. If it isn't about what an abominable sinner we are, it's about the thorns and the blood. It could be a beautiful melody-- and many of them are haunting and layed out in minor scales... some are based on bach and beethoven melodies. Some are old celtic traditionals, like amazing grace. But that 'wretched' imagery invariably comes in... and it's almost surrealistic hearing a whole congregation sing-songing these lyrics, about the blood pouring down jesus' forehead and such.

Here was a hymn  that almost made it... depending on how it's arranged, it has a lot of drama and I've heard it done awesomely..

How Great Thou Art – The Lyrics


O Lord my God, When I in awesome wonder,
Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

When through the woods, and forest glades I wander,
And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees.
When I look down, from lofty mountain grandeur
And see the brook, and feel the gentle breeze.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

And when I think, that God, His Son not sparing;
Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in;
That on the Cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

When Christ shall come, with shout of acclamation,
And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart.
Then I shall bow, in humble adoration,
And then proclaim: "My God, how great Thou art!"

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!


They can't leave the beauty alone ... it has to be met with the blood or one's own wretchedness...

Look at this webpage from which I snagged the lyrics.. the little blip to the right. http://www.allaboutgod.com/how-great-thou-art.htm
WHAT DO YOU THINK? - We have all sinned and deserve God's judgment. God, the Father, sent His only Son to satisfy that judgment for those who believe in Him. Jesus, the creator and eternal Son of God, who lived a sinless life, loves us so much that He died for our sins, taking the punishment that we deserve, was buried, and rose from the dead according to the Bible. If you truly believe and trust this in your heart, receiving Jesus alone as your Savior, declaring, "Jesus is Lord," you will be saved from judgment and spend eternity with God in heaven.

[nichi]

It's grovelling in a way... but I see it as equivocation.
The whole premise of christianity is that one only has to believe ... one has to believe that jesus "died for our salvation", so the only proper way to come to him is on our knees. In that humbleness, all men are equal.  Though some have more sordid war-stories/testimonies than others. 

[nichi]

A good book to read about how one teaches a people to have such dire self-loathing is Hawaii by James Michener. One will never look at missionaries the same...

[Angela]

Brings new meaning this season


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldAxy5nLkq8

Amazing grace
(the spirit within us all...the immanent god force)
How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
(the "christian" I once was)
I once was lost
But now I'm found
Was blind
But now I see
(But now I See)

The earth shall soon
Dissolve like snow
The sun forget to shine
But God who brought me here below
(Again the immanent god force)
Will be forever mine

Through him many dangers, toils and snares
(the "work" to be done)
I have already come
'T was grace that brought me here thus far
And grace will lead me home
(the Path of the Heart)

Now...sing it again.

[Jennifer-]

Amazing grace
(the spirit within us all...the immanent god force)
How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
(the "christian" I once was)
I once was lost
But now I'm found
Was blind
But now I see
(But now I See)

The earth shall soon
Dissolve like snow
The sun forget to shine
But God who brought me here below
(Again the immanent god force)
Will be forever mine

Through him many dangers, toils and snares
(the "work" to be done)
I have already come
'T was grace that brought me here thus far
And grace will lead me home
(the Path of the Heart)

Now...sing it again.

 

[Angela]

How Great Thou Art – The Lyrics

They can't leave the beauty alone ... it has to be met with the blood or one's own wretchedness...

This is another hymn that sounds spectacular in a huge cathedral...very powerful!  Again, change the direction of the meaning to within.

I love to sing when I'm in church, and when you can change the energy flow from external to internal, it makes all the difference.  I guess I find ways to capture the full meaning of living in the now.  I may not want to be there, but I do my best to make it enjoyable. 

[nichi]

It can be very beautiful indeed!

Ang, I can relate to your rewrite so much.
I did that too, at the church I described .. I just couldn't abide hearing the singing about the blood and vinegar and whatever ... I would either pass out lyrics with those verses omitted, or plumb rewrite them, heheh. (We had no one to answer to.)

Like your rewrites!

[Angela]

It can be very beautiful indeed!

Ang, I can relate to your rewrite so much.
I did that too, at the church I described .. I just couldn't abide hearing the singing about the blood and vinegar and whatever ... I would either pass out lyrics with those verses omitted, or plumb rewrite them, heheh. (We had no one to answer to.)

Like your rewrites!

Thanks, V

Yes, at first I felt anger at what I was taught and what we actually sing about in church.  But the people attending...they just don't Know any better.  Most all of them mean well, and are genuinely nice people.  They may feel out of sync but, as I was, as we all have been at times, have become complacent in their misery.  I'm learning to reassemble the flow. 

It's manic/depressive, religion is...no wonder the drug companies are rich!

[kaycee]

Two weeks ago I got into a very similar discussion about "Amazing Grace" with a good friend who plays the organ for a large church in this area.  He's been playing in churches for years.

I was telling him that I've finally put aside the comment heard (from high school!) - about Karen not having the "temperment" to be a solo singer, and am singing a solo in choir. 

We got this new hymn and it's a wonderful contemporary song, with verses of "Amazing Grace" woven through it.  Our choir director said that the verses are supposed to be solos, but could be sung by all sopranos if there were no volunteers.  Before I realized what I was doing, my hand was in the air. 

There's always been something in that song that touched my heart, apparently this time it also touched some arm synapses too.  Whatever - it sings me beautifully.

My friend said he would not even play the song, no matter who or how it was requested because "I am not now, nor never have been a wretch."

Got me to thinking and then got me to asking, "But ... have you ever felt wretched?"

I don't feel the song from an "I'm a sinning wretch" POV.  What happens is that I remember times when I've felt wretched and alone, and how opening to something bigger (for want of a better word) took away the lost and dark feeling.

Maybe all double's middle names are Grace - who knows.  Connecting to them is pretty Amazing.
Luv, K

[Michael]

I do agree that one can re-make the meanings of the words - we have to do this in many ways through our life in society.