Topic: US Elections 2008

[Angela]

Did any of you US citizens vote?

Yes, I did

[Quantum Shaman]

Also,  I don't understand how evolution can have a beginning.  In my view, it is a constant process with no beginning or end.
So while I do understand your (personal) need to destroy faith, I cannot comprehend that evolution won't  'start' until faith is destroyed.   

Pretty simple.  As long as you are relying on "faith" in any sort of extant force, power or god, you have abdicated responsibility for your own evolution.  And, at a certain level, even "faith" in yourself is not enough.  Warriors don't rely on "faith", but in quantifiable energy - action, intent, will. 

I think it's a pretty obvious statement. 

[Michael]

We have strayed through many topics. I finally got to read most and will look at the others later. Generally I felt people were putting their arguments very well, and it is important to give them the space in your own mind, before responding.

Naturally the topic would turn to 'hope'. It is very true that in the outer social world, hope is critical.

The problem with hope, is that comes with despair. Like night follows day, despair will follow on hope - it even happened to DL's party.

Much of the difficulty indicated here is due to not clearly distinguishing between the outer and inner world. What is applicable to the outer world is not necessarily applicable to the inner.

If your engine is running on the fuel of hope, what will you do when it turns to despair?

For us on the path, hope is next to useless. That does not mean we swing to it's opposite. Despair is just as useless. These are moods, and we as humans, allow ourselves to range through the full capability of our emotional centre, but with a difference. We are not internally connected.

This is so difficult to explain, and reading these posts, I see some are still learning how this works. That is why I have this Board - Action.

You have to go to the core, to see the truth. I love to express the despair of humanity, to feel this mood as I watch my fellow humans, and know the futility. At the same time I love to feel the hope - the hope which Obama lights up in people's hearts. The 'stairway to heaven' - yes I also follow that one... knowing full well....

I seek to light hope in the hearts of those around me - not to save the world, as that is a very different matter altogether - but to bring 'auspicious'. I love to see the hearts of those around me light up with the knowledge of possibilities - to realise they can achieve, they can change themselves and the world.

You know that Shiva, the god of destruction, is also the god of auspicious - you should think carefully on that.

I also spread despair, as without passing through that, there is little 'hope' of stepping off the see-saw. Only when we personally drop the carrot and the stick, can we step into a very different world.

The question is always are you speaking to one on the path, or off the path. For those off the path, we 'apply the correction'. We spread hope where lies despair, and spread the 'warning of the night' where lies hope. Always we seek to remind those around us, when we choose to, that the cycle of hope and despair is endless... 'this too will pass'. But people don't like it!

When you speak of the day during night, they call you an optimist living in dreamland. When you speak of the night during day, they abuse you for spoiling their fun.

So we have to know and recall both, because that is the simple roller-coaster of emotion built into the very blueprint of our beings.

However, for ourselves, we fuel our engines on a very different substance. This enables us to speed along gaily in both despair and hope, in both day and night. THAT is our secret.

And if you don't know what that secret is, best you find out before you do anything else. You are useless in the Shamanic field of Action if you have not realigned yourself to this secret. You will only muddy the water even more.

[nichi]

So we have to know and recall both, because that is the simple roller-coaster of emotion built into the very blueprint of our beings.

However, for ourselves, we fuel our engines on a very different substance. This enables us to speed along gaily in both despair and hope, in both day and night. THAT is our secret.

And if you don't know what that secret is, best you find out before you do anything else. You are useless in the Shamanic field of Action if you have not realigned yourself to this secret. You will only muddy the water even more.

[tangerine dream]

Pretty simple.  As long as you are relying on "faith" in any sort of extant force, power or god, you have abdicated responsibility for your own evolution.  And, at a certain level, even "faith" in yourself is not enough.  Warriors don't rely on "faith", but in quantifiable energy - action, intent, will. 

Once again let me remind that because I have faith or hope doesn't mean that I rely on them period.  I have said  hope and faith can be useful catalysts, to light the spark inside.   Using them with whatever means necessary to facilitate an action is what I am talking about.   Faith, hope, despair, fear, and lots more, none of them are useful to us if we get attached or stuck on them.  If we can use these things to fuel us, that's some good work, leading to action.

I seek to light hope in the hearts of those around me - not to save the world, as that is a very different matter altogether - but to bring 'auspicious'. I love to see the hearts of those around me light up with the knowledge of possibilities - to realise they can achieve, they can change themselves and the world.

You know that Shiva, the god of destruction, is also the god of auspicious - you should think carefully on that.

[Quantum Shaman]

However, for ourselves, we fuel our engines on a very different substance. This enables us to speed along gaily in both despair and hope, in both day and night. THAT is our secret.

And if you don't know what that secret is, best you find out before you do anything else. You are useless in the Shamanic field of Action if you have not realigned yourself to this secret. You will only muddy the water even more.

I agree with this assessment, Michael, and I do think it's critically important to address the issue of who one is speaking to.  To someone who is on the path, it is patently obvious, as you stated early on in your post, that "hope is useless."  In the entirety of your post, that statement carries the most weight, for the simple reason that it strikes at the heart of Truth - i.e., it says it like it is without any additional "packaging."

I also agree with your assessment about spreading hope and despair somewhat equally. In my own work, that is critical.  We have to be willing to let our world(s) fall BEFORE we have much "hope" of building a new one - and lately, I've seen way too many people so high on the dope of "hope" that they are simply unwilling and (as a result) UNABLE to see beyond the narrow focus of that high.  Rather like being stoned.  Seems like it will last forever, until you crash, and then it's often a long, downward spiral into the darkness - which was always there, but was obscured by the "drug".

For what it's worth, I'm not "down" on hope or love and light.  It is simply my "path" to be the serpent in the garden - MY OWN!  *heh*  And, occasionally, others are going to take the apple and then get bent out of shape because it opens their eyes to something they don't want to see.  *shrugs*  So I'm not sure what the answer is - seriously.  Nod and smile in silent approval?  I simply felt in this thread that some manner of "logical" thinking needed to be injected into the conversation.  Because, frankly, ideas like "hope" and "faith" are not particularly logical, and particularly among those on the path.  Sorry to be so "dark" here, but "hope and faith" are words that belong in a campaign speech or a pulpit.

Toltec is a brutal path in many ways.  I don't label myself as Toltec, per se, but most of my practices & spirit-work parallel that line of thinking.  Don Juan was not a man of "hope" or "faith".  And there is a lot of truth in the old Biblical adage, "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here."  And, yet, I also totally agree with your statement that we don't swing automatically to the other extreme - despair.  To those who want/need to hear this, I will say there is a "balance" between hope and despair, and that centerpoint is, simply, sobriety - reason, clarity, fluidity.  Those dwelling in "hope" cannot find that centerpoint anymore than those dwelling in despair may find it.  The pendulum swings - but only if we allow it, only if we are willing to acknowledge that hope and despair are EQUALLY folly, and then find our personal centerpoint.

The "problem" as I see it is that so much new age clap trap has been injected into the world that even those who genuinely WANT to be on a path toward spiritual evolution are blinded by the "light" - e.g., the whole notion of "The Secret" is just new age feel-goodism as it was packaged (even though the core ideas may be effective, the manner in which it was sold was pure snake oil, yet gobbbled up by millions).  I go into the book store and pick up books on the "metaphysical" shelf at random, and I'm appalled!  "Enlightenment" is offered to us in the form of "love and light", completely ignoring the fact that "grief and darkness" are no less real - and every bit as powerful. Here in the US in particular, we are inundated with the xtian notion of some guy saving our souls so we may go to heaven, but in the same unspoken breath, this means, "Only if you are like us, only if you agree with us, only if you are a heterosexual middle-class American with 2.4 children and a willingness to turn a blind eye on all the EVIL the church does in the name of God.  Hey, Brother, can you spare a dime, by the way"

So, on forums like Soma, The Sorcerr's World, and The Solitary Nagual, I tend to think that the participants WANT to challenge their belief systems every bit as much as I do.  As a result, a lot of my opinions are not particularly popular, nor would I expect them to be.  And that gets into a whole different area which I was attempting to express at TSN in the following comments:

Those who have known me for any length of time already know I am not particularly "sweetness and light" in my approach to this path.  Quite the contrary, I have found it to be a path of "dark enlightenment" - in the sense that much of the Knowledge and experience we acquire on this path isn't particularly "pleasant".  We use the term "warriors" - but what are we at war with?  Simple - our comfort zones, belief systems, our ego and the baggage of the consensus we bring with us from our "ordinary lives".

Are we willing to challenge those things?  Or are we only looking for a feel-good agreement to our existing belief systems? 

When Orlando first began working with the three of us, he challenged us right down to the core level of our thought processes - particularly when we would respond to one of his questions with a platitude.  I remember once he asked me, "Della, how do you define 'the right way to live'?"  I responded with some clever (or so I thought) quip about, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."   Some bit of recycled sweetness & light shite floating around in my brain from my old programming.  So easy to see in hindsight.  So impossible to see when we are stuck in the program.  Needless to say, his response was *ahem* rather brutal, as I believe both Wendy and A_____ would attest.  It went something like this...

"Then how would you define doing unto others?  What does that mean to you?  Do you agree with them blindly in the hopes they will agree with you - even if and when you are wrong?  Do you form unwritten and unholy alliances based on some notion of approval or reciprocal courtesies?  And if that is the case, what do you then owe to that person, that you may not want or be able to give?  Do you smile at their errors and hold your silence because that is how you would want to be treated, ignoring the fact that you will only go on repeating the same errors through ignorance?  Do unto others... Is that REALLY how you would define the right way to live, or is that just some bit of garbage stuck on your hard drive that you recite when challenged by a question to which you have no answer?"

Got my attention.  And it made me think.

And therein lies the rub.  If we are going to be honest, if we are going to be true to our path (whatever it may be), can we afford those little consensuses that often occur on forums, wherein you agree with me and expect me to agree with you?  Or, is it perhaps far more of an honor and a service to others to treat them with the dignity and respect that says, "I love you enough to challenge your thinking - and I BEG you to do the same for me!" 

So, for what it's worth, that's where I'm coming from.  I am very willing to commit to exploring the path with others, but not to blindly agreeing with them because it makes them "feel good".  I consider that a huge disservice, and nothing more than an attempt to maintain some illusion of a "pleasant status quo."   That's not what this path is about for me.  We either commit to challenging down to the core level our belief systems, or we are utterly wasting our time.  To me, that IS the centerpoint between hope and despair.

Just my thoughts - thanks for listening.
D

[Quantum Shaman]

Once again let me remind that because I have faith or hope doesn't mean that I rely on them period.  I have said  hope and faith can be useful catalysts, to light the spark inside.   Using them with whatever means necessary to facilitate an action is what I am talking about.   Faith, hope, despair, fear, and lots more, none of them are useful to us if we get attached or stuck on them.  If we can use these things to fuel us, that's some good work, leading to action.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position, Lori.  THAT is what I am looking for - to understand where you are coming from, and that can only come through a broader form of communication.  To me, being able to put into words concepts such as this is a huge aspect of my assimilation - otherwise we may "do" things or "believe" things without really understanding much about the structure upon which our do-ing or our believing is built.  To me, as a stalker, being able to COMMUNICATE that understanding is half the battle.

D

[Jahn]

After I got to work, I realized I wanted to say that, too.

Thanks Jamir,  I heartily agree!
 


I'm curious about what he had to say or show, if it's not too personal to share.  I've met dJ in dreaming and always he had some very important bit of knowledge to impart.
 

It was not that personal, and seldom are with DJ for me. I have more close astral guides on the personal level. Usually these contacts are on such a high vibrating level that words are not sufficient to cover the exchange.

Don Juan has the ability to explain how single events or happenings fit into the whole picture. But even if the topic this time were about rapid changes in the world, the result of our exchange was that I got strength in doing what I am already doing.

Many seers of today see things that may make them rather worried about the future. Then it is good to turn to the old and wise.

[tangerine dream]

Many seers of today see things that may make them rather worried about the future. Then it is good to turn to the old and wise.

 

[Michael]

It is blatantly obvious how significant this latest US elections have been to the African American community in USA. That significance is all about hope.

I recall a writer once describing the difference between Jewish and African American families towards their children's aspirations. The Jewish family were always not only encouraging their children to achieve great things, they expected it of them - plus there were ample role models. Whenever a child of an African American family aspired to something, s/he was told, "Who do you think you are? Don't go getting above yourself."

Obama has had a profound effect on these people - there is no denying that. And listening to the stories of how excited they all were, is very moving.

But you can see right there the brittle nature of pinning yourself to hope - what would happen if Obama was assassinated? Can you image the consequences for the Black people of America? I could easily conjecture it would be worse for them than if he had never appeared on the scene. That is the problem with hope - it is a highly vulnerable ally.

But that is the nature of 'peoples'. They do not have the luxury of escaping the vulnerabilities of their group tonal - except as individuals who leave behind their group.

Ask yourself this question. Are you able to push on regardless, when all hope is gone?

Action does not come from hope, it comes from desire. Emotional desire is the source of all action, even when that desire is about avoidance of pain. Hope however is like a gateway. You may desire to do something, but if you see no possibility of succeeding, then your desire is blocked, and thus your action is blocked.

Where this is seen clearly, is when we are proceeding with hope of achieving. Then hope turns to hopelessness - what do we do? What do you do? Do you drop your bundle and give up? What is the point of carrying on along some road when it is patently pointless?

This happens in many common activities in our day - if you want to drive to town, but your car breaks down, do you sit in the car and keep turning the key again and again, waiting for a miracle? Or do you give up and find another route to your destination?

But that is not where this matter really hits home. It is in those other situations which are not so black and white. We should choose our road, our action, and not based on outcomes alone. This allows us the extra level to be able to keep pushing on, when all hope is gone, because we are not the servant of hope! It is absolutely critical we grasp this understanding.

Hope is also meaning. We persevere because our actions have meaning - we see that are right and meaningful for us. But when all of a sudden they become meaningless, wrong, futile - can you still persevere when your efforts are obviously pointless?

That is the quality that those who really have the knowledge to assist seekers on the path, are looking for. When you can demonstrate that quality, even Spirit sits up and notices.

In order to trick him, and show him up, they asked Nasrudin which is more important, the sun or the moon. "The moon of course!" he replied. "Why?" they asked, slightly taken aback by his confident statement.

Nasrudin said, "Because the moon shines at night, when you need light - who needs light during the day?"

[Quantum Shaman]

I love this post, Michael.  It gives me *heh* "hope", while at the same time acknowledging that hope by itself is little more than a passing thought.  You made a couple of points/questions which I'd like to address.

Ask yourself this question. Are you able to push on regardless, when all hope is gone?

Action does not come from hope, it comes from desire. Emotional desire is the source of all action, even when that desire is about avoidance of pain. Hope however is like a gateway. You may desire to do something, but if you see no possibility of succeeding, then your desire is blocked, and thus your action is blocked.

One of the exercises I've done in my workshops is to pose the following question to folks:  "If you woke up tomorrow and discovered you were the last living human on Earth, would you have any desire to continue your path toward spiritual evolution?"  In short, this question forces folks to come face to face with the concept that every one of us really IS the last person on Earth, even though there may be 6 billion others all around us.  What it also forces us to confront is to what extent we may be basing even our "desire" for evolution on some comparison/competition with others.  If we are the last one, what are we evolving BEYOND?  What are we evolving TO?

I feel that questions of this nature are criticla as a means to jolt us out of our ordinary awareness thinking.

I've had warriors give answers running the extremes - everything from saying they would just continue on as usual, to saying they would "summon up some faith", to saying they would simply end their life through a movement of pure intent.  Only once did I hear someone say what I thought was an actual Don Juan-esque answer.  It was simply this:  "I'd realize I had dreamed myself into that position for a reason, and I would seize the Dream and use lucid intent to create my heart's desire in my brave little private new world."

Now THAT would be a manifestation of "hope" in some people's eyes, but at the core reality of it, it would really be a movement of energy at the level of spirit - the ability to carry on when all passive "hoping" is gone. 

Where this is seen clearly, is when we are proceeding with hope of achieving. Then hope turns to hopelessness - what do we do? What do you do? Do you drop your bundle and give up? What is the point of carrying on along some road when it is patently pointless?

Again, this gets to the core of my own thinking.  When we are looking for a "point to carrying on along some road when it is patently pointless" we are ESSENTIALLY seeking some sort of extant agreement, even if we don't realize it initially.  A "point" is based on an agreement, and a warrior's centerpoint is solely herself - so no agreements are required, no validation sought (beyond a certain beginning-point of the path).  The point to carrying on at that juncture would simply be our own impeccability - we play the game *as if* it matters, knowing all the while that it is our controlled folly. Abandoning hope can be a great exercise in losing self-importance and releasing our attachments to self-pity.  When all hope is gone, we realize we are finally FREE, even of our own belief systems.

When you have lost all hope, you have nothing left to lose.  And the keypoint is that this includes despair.  When a warrior truly abandons hope, s/he also abandons despair - with the full awareness that both are arbitrary positions of the assemblage point based on the subtle agreeements we form when we are looking for a "point" to anything, or a "meaning."  It's all arbitrary, and it's all inside of us.  Not by default, but by an awakening of our awareness.  Someone I know likes to say, "We are all Buddhas" - but I have never liked that statement, because it implies that we need do nothing in order to be "perfect."  On one level, MAYBE that is true, but I don't personally see it.  We all have the POTENTIAL to be Buddhas, but to MANIFEST that potential requires the work of losing our programming, diving into the abyss, and seeing what (if anything) of our "past life" survives that dark enlightenment.


 

We should choose our road, our action, and not based on outcomes alone. This allows us the extra level to be able to keep pushing on, when all hope is gone, because we are not the servant of hope! It is absolutely critical we grasp this understanding.

Just had to bring this forward, because it is so critical, and yet so often overlooked.  We are not the servant of hope!  Nor are we the slaves of despair.  Either may be used as a tool, but the trick is to let go of the tool before it glues itself to our hand, to see it for what it is, and then go BEYOND its hooks. 

Hope is also meaning. We persevere because our actions have meaning - we see that are right and meaningful for us. But when all of a sudden they become meaningless, wrong, futile - can you still persevere when your efforts are obviously pointless?

This is where we CAN begin to claim our own personal power and use it for something other than parlour tricks.  When we truly wrap our minds around the idea that ALL "meaning" is what we assign to something (an event, an object, a life path), we have given ourselves permission to DRIVE the boat instead of just being on board for the ride.  It's all arbitrary - which means all bets are off and all rules are out the window.  We then begin to find meaning in our actions because we have become AWARE of our actions and have potentially begun to act with impeccability rather than some ambiguous "faith" that spirit or our allies are going to guide us in the right direction.  When we finally grasp this, we have become Spirit, and we ARE the allies.

Thanks again, Michael, for a phenomenal post. 

D

[tangerine dream]

 and yet so often overlooked.  We are not the servant of hope!  Nor are we the slaves of despair.  Either may be used as a tool, but the trick is to let go of the tool before it glues itself to our hand, to see it for what it is, and then go BEYOND its hooks. 

This is where we CAN begin to claim our own personal power and use it

Exactly!
 

[Jahn]

  Not by default, but by an awakening of our awareness.  Someone I know likes to say, "We are all Buddhas" - but I have never liked that statement, because it implies that we need do nothing in order to be "perfect."  On one level, MAYBE that is true, but I don't personally see it.  We all have the POTENTIAL to be Buddhas, but to MANIFEST that potential requires the work of losing our programming, diving into the abyss, and seeing what (if anything) of our "past life" survives that dark enlightenment.

I know that guy too. He may not be the same though. This "We are all Light and Buddhas" may blind many in New Age Enlightment to come in alignment with their Destiny.

[Quantum Shaman]

I know that guy too. He may not be the same though. This "We are all Light and Buddhas" may blind many in New Age Enlightment to come in alignment with their Destiny.

Absolutely!  Any doctrine that teaches "We are already perfect" is usually some manner of either a) new age feel-goodism; or b) a line of study that would require some comitment to REALLY understand at a core level.

Sure, we are already perfect... and by the same reasoning, we are also altogether imperfect.  What we manifest determines the Truth of either statement at any given time.

[Angela]

Found this interesting ... http://www.avaaz.org/en/