Topic: US Elections 2008

[TIOTIT]

I know this thread is getting cold but on reading this recent article it seemed to
belong here... obviously he's not an Obama fan but his interpretation on the nature
of Hope was a strong one....

Ask yourself this question. Are you able to push on regardless, when all hope is gone?

That's the way 'hope' is employed by the dastardly and devious - take the crap we are giving you now in the 'hope' that things will get better (but we know they won't). Barack Obama is a purveyor of 'hope' because his masters want the people to accept what they are given now in the hope that good times will come.
 Just do what we demand, oops, sorry, Barack demands, and in return he'll inspire you to hope that it is all leading to the Promised Land. It isn't, but, by the time you realise that, it's too late.

What terrifies the manipulators is that people will abandon hope, as a future, sometime-never projection, and start to demand fairness, justice and freedom now. To avoid this nightmare they need to keep those desires as something to aspire to, not to actually have. Thus, their man, Obama, sells 'hope' as a diversion technique, a holding position, to keep the masses from truly rebelling.

We have no job, no food on the table and our home has been foreclosed, but at least we have 'hope'. Phew, thank goodness for that.

 'I'm hungry, mum, can I have some hope, please?'

[Jahn]

It is all about energy. And energy is not linear - it is here and now. Some of us would say that a Obama administration was the best choice. And now we are there,  watching Obama and his administration to be selected for the next 4 years. So our energy is in alignment with the best choice.

What more can you ask for?
The best choice won.

[Jahn]

Thus, their man, Obama, sells 'hope' as a diversion technique, a holding position, to keep the masses from truly rebelling.

Rebel towards what I might ask? Money as an institution, authorities as authorities?
The masses are what? Misguided martyrs?

[Michael]

TIOTIT, who are you quoting here?

What terrifies the manipulators is that people will abandon hope, as a future, sometime-never projection, and start to demand fairness, justice and freedom now. To avoid this nightmare they need to keep those desires as something to aspire to, not to actually have. Thus, their man, Obama, sells 'hope' as a diversion technique, a holding position, to keep the masses from truly rebelling.

There is some truth and some questions in this. I think it is true that without hope, our Capitalist system would collapse - it's all about putting off for today so you can buy a new TV next year. This is why they have been unsuccessful in selling this system to the Australian Aboriginals in the Northern Territory - they live now, and can't be persuaded to 'toe the line' in the hope of having 'things' at some future date, because they don't value 'things'.

Yet that is the system we are all plugged into on a social level, from the moment we are born. We are surrounded by 'toys', and if we want more toys, we have to work.

"demand fairness, justice and freedom now" I'm not sure the abandonment of hope will result in these desires. Maybe, but more likely, it would mean a complete break down of order, and instead of fairness, justice and freedom, people will smash the store windows and grab 'stuff'. I feel it is an fantasy of idealists that people will demand high and noble qualities - rather they will murder each other. Recall the French Revolution? or any revolution for that matter.

I'm sure there have and will be cultures that are not built on the Capitalist 'hopes'. But we are so far up the arse of this beast now, radical extraction would seem to me to be a complete disaster. Yet that may be what's coming.

[erik]

I see another aspect to "hope". It is about redemption of the people living in the US. By now many understand that something went badly wrong under Bush Jr. Usually they say it was the 'war'. I doubt many could say which war and how went wrong. Obama has given a hope that he will simply end the 'war' gone wrong. For simplistic minds untroubled by detail and deeper understanding it is enough as it echoes so well with childhood's 'You are doing wrong - stop and apologize!'

Yet...how exactly one apologizes for war? 'Sorry, we killed million of your people, but now we'll stop and go away'? Most people will do their utmost to forget about that adventure immediately - 'We apologized, what more do you want? We have a new president now and we won't do anything like that ever again!' Settled, done with.

But is it? Such a learned inability to see own actions for what they are, and sclerosis induced by an education system (how about drawing some historical parallels with launching some other wars by the US?) will lead to a redemption in minds of most people, and most certainly to a repetition of such affairs (in near future).

[Jahn]

The Earth is tired, I mean overshoot day comes in September. The deforestation, the pollution of air and water and all mankind induced activities that stress the system has gone too far. So the climate change and man has to change along as there is a codependence in the Earth life system.

Looking in the rear view mirror - had we been able to make it any better? Probably not. In a system that has only one goal - economic growth - nature becomes the maid that everone can rape. We have "green taxes" on fuel but noone has really paid the price for pollution and deforestation. If the price had been enough high that would at least slowed down the growth and thereby decreased the pollution, given us some more time ... but that is all.

An airticket from Sweden to Italy for one Euro. Or go to England or France for 20. Who pays? Gas is cheaper than milk.

[Firestarter]

Oh some good posts here, Im catching up a bit - the hope side vs the 'be real' side, not saying sides, im speaking really of sides to myself, own self, cause this is one of those moments the thought about Hope being in the Pandora's box is a good thing or a bad thing - like abandoning all hope ye who enter - maybe hope is one of the last things to go, before we take a firm look at hell and what it really looks like.

Okay, Lori... I want to start this by saying that we clearly come from very opposite points of view.  That's okay.  Anything I have said here isn't personal, though I was accused by a friend of "seeking an argument."  That is NOT my agenda, so I hope you (and others) will hear me on that.  Frankly, I don't think discussions such as this can be answered with one or two-word responses, but that's just me.  In trying to understand where YOU are coming from, I offer my own reference points and attempt to make them clear.  But, of course, in the bigger picture, even if you and I came to an understanding (formed a consensus), it really would make no difference whatsoever.  So... in many ways, we have to acknowledge that most forum discussions are little more than exercises in stalking our own assimilation.

In talking to you or Michael or Juhani or Jahn or Jen, my agenda isn't to change YOUR mind, but to thoroughly challenge and explore my own.  That's what stalkers do.  When I am in Dreaming mode, I "inhabit the experience in the Now", but the reason Toltec teaches that a warrior must learn both dreaming AND stalking is because there does come a time when we are required (by ourselves) to form a foundation of Knowledge that is both fluid and cohesive, at the same time.  Dreaming (fluidity) and stalking (cohesion). 

Yep, I have my own approach, laid out in the chart for myself, when I dream/sleep time, I stalk and am lucid, and when awake, strangely approach the world as a 'dream' and attempt to see things as they are. Oddly enough, it works, well so far anyway.

So, this question is posed from the point of view of a stalker:  When you say you have faith in the universe, spirit and power... my question becomes... how would you define those things?  What I'm getting at is that when people say they have faith in spirit or the universe, they are usually envisioning some manner of extant "power" - whether god, goddess, atman, or other - and at that point, there is still what amounts to an abdication of power and responsibility from the "self" to something "other".

Only speaking for myself, but if I do lean on faith, its more that goes like this - im not separate from the universe as in yes, I am here, and small, speck of insignificant lint within it, yet, at the same time, im still a reflection of the universe, and its within me. Like my post I did when I said, per our circulatory system, if we took every vein, artery, capillary, and stranded all the strings together, it is equal to 60,000 miles and could wrap around the world two and a half times its circumference. Thats in one lone, human body. That, is an incredible feat, to think we have that many veins, arteries, capillaries in our bodies. And we do have our own universe essence within.

The only thing I can do, when stalking or dreaming - is to do my best to see things as they are, and take the world, and whatever gold or dung is offered and transform myself. Glass vs steel people - is all I can do. I do certainly care about fellow man if they may say, destroy themselves or not, or continue to fall for their own folly. However, I certainly understand in reality, we can only do our little part, cannot save the world from stupid and greedy people.

Still though, somewhere, The Force, seems to hold it together. I see it, in various ways, when even say, certain things like the folly strikes (like the drama with our economy) what occurs? People start examining themselves, cutting expenses, stop being superficial and greedy. If anything economy is a decent reflector of one of the significance of the force - chaos and order. So somewhere if we're operating like that, must be a force in some manner. Some form of odd self-preservation of the species to not destroy ourselves completely - though we take ourselves to near-destruction each little cycle we create.

The world is mad and nuts and its going to cycle. All we can really do is see things as they are and not allow it to drag us down with, try to do our own part, but not become consumed and absorbed by its madness. Ultimately then per faith, I have faith in the force, and myself to be able to make it thru - no matter what, come what may, all I can do.

  Maybe that's not what you mean.  That's what I'm trying to get at here.  What DO you mean?  Without a further refernce point, they are just words hanging in a void.  What is the universe? What is spirit?  What is power?  Not questions you need to answer if you don't want to - just trying to point out that our definitions of these things, and our experience of them, is not going to be the same, so part of coming to an understanding involves building a common language (as much as is possible - which may be altogether impossible... 

Much to me is a mystery and unknowable. I dont think we'll ever achieve our theory of everything - least not in the lifetime - there is just 'too much' for now. But we can know ourselves best of our ability and do our own work. Spirit I do believe is within really, everything, and spirit is also us. Power, is something that we do have - however, I agree per this 'secret shit,' it isnt about that. I utilize my power best I can, for myself say, break free from the wheel of samsara, which really is pretty much, the CR and not much different.

The bottom line is simply this:  too many people I encounter (including myself!) fall into comfort zones of believing that if they wish for something or hope for something, it is going to come to them.  That was part of the whole platform of the latest spiritual fad - "The Secret."  The concepts may work at a core level, but unless combined with actual ACTION (dreaming and stalking working together - thought/idea becoming manifested through intent)) they tend to sit dormant in the back of the mind as a "comfort zone".   We lose ourselves in "hoping" and put off the "do-ing".

yeah the main flaw I see with the secret crap is, people are getting set up in this 'abundance mindset,' which is really just folks telling people what they want to hear. But yet they're saying you can command the world to give you, material shit. Thats great. Isnt unhooking from the desire or need for superficialism and materialism an aim? Like really seeking as much independence as we can from the CR. Im not saying, per interconnectedness we can be solely independent, dont get me wrong (I need food, air by golly to breathe - we have basic necessities if we want to live awhile), but I look at and get rid of what I dont need and what can weigh me down. But folks want to command the universe to give them more things to be attached to? And more material items to be attached to? Or even send them some hot lover (to be attached to? LOL). So its really to me no 'secret' that people are really tricking their minds. Oh, I got a check, it mustve been the secret. No, could've been, you were due a tax return - lol.

There is work involved and folks who believe in things like the 'secret' say, are folks who dont want to work, and do it. Nothing is gained without 'work' and effort. Its like exercise. No one gets into marathon shape and can run a triathlon by sitting on their ass eating chips and drinking beer, commanding the universe they'll win the race, lol.

Doesn't matter, of course.  It's not my intent or even my hope to change your thinking.     Heartfelt.  My intent is only to challenge my own comfort zones - and that often comes in the form of presenting ideas that are not particularly popular.  My contention is that if I am "disturbed" by something you say (or vice versa) the stalking exercise has been successful.  Obviously (to me anyway) knowledge cannot be traded in the form of words alone.  Anything you say to me, anything I say to you, must be filtered through our own processes - and hopefully somewhere in that do-ing, we not only understand ourselves better, but we also build a more cohesive "foundation" that welcomes challenge as an opportunity for growth, rather than automatically retreating from it as a threat to ego or existing comfort zones.

So, since it seem to be an issue and a question, allow me to say publicly that I'm not seeking an "argument."  I'm trying to stimulate my own thinking by engaging with others.  That is not going to involve joining any consensus and there will be times when it will not even be "politically correct."  But, in the bigger picture, isn't that what the path is all about?  Challenging our comfort zones?  Abolishing all belief systems (including what we believe about words), until we stand face to face with the authentic self?

If we're just here to agree with one another, we're wasting our time.

Heartfelt, unconditionally,
D

No, they were good sentiments, and really I think per our country as a bunch of greedy folks got us into a huge hole, per the war and this whole housing and loan deal, like Obama said its got to get worse before it gets better, thanks to the fat cats who couldnt stop wanting to get fatter and fatter, off the fat off someone's back. I wouldnt go into the realm of saying 'we're flowered,' but im not expecting any miracles anytime soon. I dont have say, faith that, we're going to see social security when we retire, things like that. We've really tapped out even the reserves. But Im really hoping course, that we dont slip into a great depression cause of these dumbasses and have to stand in an eight hour line to get a loaf of bread, per the damage to the economy, so hopefully that wont happen, but if I see it then sure, hope will be gone I guess, but Ill survive either way.

[Firestarter]

Obama tells daughters he ran for president for them, all children

hr 37 mins ago AFP/File – US president-elect Barack Obama (L) with his daughters Malia(C) and Sasha on vacation in 2008.

WASHINGTON (AFP) – In an open letter to his young daughters, US president-elect Barack Obama said Thursday that he entered the race for the White House "because of what I want for you and for every child in this nation."

"When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me -- about how I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the things I want. But then the two of you came into my world," Obama said in the letter published in Parade magazine, a weekend newspaper color supplement.

"I realized that my own life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that you had every opportunity for happiness and fulfilment in yours. In the end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I want for you and for every child in this nation," wrote the soon-to-be Dad-in-chief.

Obama's wish-list for children includes challenging and inspirational schools; equal opportunity to go to university, regardless of their family's financial standing; and well-paid jobs with benefits such as health care and a pension plan that will allow them to "retire with dignity."

The 47-year-old father of Malia, 10, and Sasha, 7, said he wants to "push the boundaries" of discovery to encourage the development of new technology and inventions that improve lives and protect the environment.

And he spoke of his vision of a United States that has reached "beyond the divides of race and region, gender and religion that keep us from seeing the best in each other."

He would strive to send young Americans to war "only for a very good reason", trying first to settle differences with other nations peacefully.

"These are the things I want for you -- to grow up in a world with no limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and to grow into compassionate, committed women who will help build that world," wrote Obama.

"And I want every child to have the same chances to learn and dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've taken our family on this great adventure," wrote Obama, who on Tuesday will move into the White House with his two daughters and wife, Michelle.


~~~~~~

'What I Want for You — and Every Child
in America'
By President-elect Barack Obama
Publication Date: 01/14/2009

Great inaugural moments
 
Next Tuesday, Barack Obama will be sworn in as our 44th President. On this historic occasion, PARADE asked the President-elect, who is also a devoted family man, to get personal and tell us what he wants for his children. Here, he shares his letter to them.

The Full Letter


Dear Malia and Sasha,

I know that you've both had a lot of fun these last two years on the campaign trail, going to picnics and parades and state fairs, eating all sorts of junk food your mother and I probably shouldn't have let you have. But I also know that it hasn't always been easy for you and Mom, and that as excited as you both are about that new puppy, it doesn't make up for all the time we've been apart. I know how much I've missed these past two years, and today I want to tell you a little more about why I decided to take our family on this journey.

When I was a young man, I thought life was all about me-about how I'd make my way in the world, become successful, and get the things I want. But then the two of you came into my world with all your curiosity and mischief and those smiles that never fail to fill my heart and light up my day. And suddenly, all my big plans for myself didn't seem so important anymore. I soon found that the greatest joy in my life was the joy I saw in yours. And I realized that my own life wouldn't count for much unless I was able to ensure that you had every opportunity for happiness and fulfillment in yours. In the end, girls, that's why I ran for President: because of what I want for you and for every child in this nation.

I want all our children to go to schools worthy of their potential-schools that challenge them, inspire them, and instill in them a sense of wonder about the world around them. I want them to have the chance to go to college-even if their parents aren't rich. And I want them to get good jobs: jobs that pay well and give them benefits like health care, jobs that let them spend time with their own kids and retire with dignity.

I want us to push the boundaries of discovery so that you'll live to see new technologies and inventions that improve our lives and make our planet cleaner and safer. And I want us to push our own human boundaries to reach beyond the divides of race and region, gender and religion that keep us from seeing the best in each other.

Sometimes we have to send our young men and women into war and other dangerous situations to protect our country-but when we do, I want to make sure that it is only for a very good reason, that we try our best to settle our differences with others peacefully, and that we do everything possible to keep our servicemen and women safe. And I want every child to understand that the blessings these brave Americans fight for are not free-that with the great privilege of being a citizen of this nation comes great responsibility.

That was the lesson your grandmother tried to teach me when I was your age, reading me the opening lines of the Declaration of Independence and telling me about the men and women who marched for equality because they believed those words put to paper two centuries ago should mean something.

She helped me understand that America is great not because it is perfect but because it can always be made better-and that the unfinished work of perfecting our union falls to each of us. It's a charge we pass on to our children, coming closer with each new generation to what we know America should be.

I hope both of you will take up that work, righting the wrongs that you see and working to give others the chances you've had. Not just because you have an obligation to give something back to this country that has given our family so much-although you do have that obligation. But because you have an obligation to yourself. Because it is only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you will realize your true potential.

These are the things I want for you-to grow up in a world with no limits on your dreams and no achievements beyond your reach, and to grow into compassionate, committed women who will help build that world. And I want every child to have the same chances to learn and dream and grow and thrive that you girls have. That's why I've taken our family on this great adventure.

I am so proud of both of you. I love you more than you can ever know. And I am grateful every day for your patience, poise, grace, and humor as we prepare to start our new life together in the White House.



Love, Dad           

[Firestarter]

I sent that to my son on his myspace so he will get his ass in gear and take school seriously since Obama is his idol and he worships him. He has a poster of him in his bedroom.

[Jennifer-]

 

[Firestarter]

This one is in his room:



"Our Destiny is not written for us, but by us."

[tangerine dream]

This one is in his room:



"Our Destiny is not written for us, but by us."

Nice!


Beautiful family he has.
Shiney ones of all them!
 

[nichi]

This one is in his room:



"Our Destiny is not written for us, but by us."

I feel warm and pleased when I look at this picture.

[Firestarter]

Nice!


Beautiful family he has.
Shiney ones of all them!
 

I have good feelings about him, esp that letter he wrote to his daughters. I may be placing a bit of hope into it - but I feel that letter he wrote his children was sincere - tho certainly addressed to many other 'children' in the USA. It was good. (and yes he has a gorgeous family).

[Jahn]

The Hero (Barack himself) and the Amazon (his wife, that btw is the strongest of them two - women are always stronger ...) must now do a heroic performance while he the Hero at the same time should pick up the role and vibrations of the Father (responsibility, trust, stability, solvency etc.).

Behind every successful man there is a woman. But this will not be any "Yes Nancy - No Nancy" rulership.