Author Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!  (Read 30653 times)

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1305 on: December 08, 2009, 09:09:18 PM »
A response to climate change sceptics from Monash University.

The full response to all sceptics' claims is here:
Responses to Questions & Objections on Climate Change
Responses to Questions & Objections on Climate Change


But if you just want the slim summary, then this is it. But actually this is very slim - there are so many good questions responded to by the primary source above:

Quote
University tackles sceptics' arguments
DEBORAH SMITH SCIENCE EDITOR
December 7, 2009

AS WORLD leaders gather in Copenhagen, efforts to undermine public confidence in the science of climate change have intensified.

Sceptics have recently gained traction by exaggerating uncertainties in the research, said Brett Parris, a research fellow at Monash University and World Vision Australia's chief economist.

''They have been working very hard to create an impression there is a raging debate among research scientists about whether humans are contributing to climate change,'' he said. ''But that is not the case.''

With the advice of scientists, Dr Parris, who trained as a geologist, has developed a 48-page document outlining scientific responses to questions and objections proposed by sceptics.

''Those continuing to deny the links between greenhouse gas emissions and climate change are using specious arguments that have been repeatedly shown to be false, weak or irrelevant in the peer-reviewed scientific literature,'' he said.

The Herald has summarised some of his document's key points:

Climate change has happened in the past and what's happening now isn't outside the bounds of natural climate variability.

MOSTLY TRUE BUT IRRELEVANT

Sea levels were around 70 metres higher 45 million years ago, and 130 metres lower 21,000 years ago, for example, but this is no reason for inaction now. Most of the strong climate changes in the past were either local or regional. If global, they took many thousands of years to occur. There is no evidence of a global temperature rise of 5 degrees in a century, as could happen now.

It was warmer during medieval times when CO2 levels were lower.

PROBABLY FALSE BUT IRRELEVANT ANYWAY

It is possible temperatures in northern Europe between 800 and 1300 were slightly warmer than at present, but this appears to have been due to a local climatic effect in the north Atlantic Ocean, and cannot explain current warming.

Climate models are unreliable.

FALSE

Climate models are not perfect but they are based on sound science and have been able to replicate past observations to a good degree of accuracy and have anticipated effects such as global cooling from big volcanic eruptions.

There was a consensus among climate scientists in the 1970s that we would soon head into another Ice Age.

FALSE

This myth is repeated endlessly. A few research papers predicted cooling, but many more didn't and greenhouse warming dominated the scientific literature even then.

Global warming ended about 1998 and it's been cooling ever since.

FALSE

This is a case of cherrypicking. The years 1997 to 1998 saw a major temperature increase due to a strong El Nino, so if this is the starting point the years immediately after are, of course, relatively cooler. If 1997 or 1999 was chosen, it would show strong warming in the following years. What matters is the underlying warming trend over decades.

Warming is the sun's fault.

FALSE

Fluctuations in solar activity influence the world's climate but their effects have been taken into account and are not enough to explain observed changes.

Climate change is due to the effects of cosmic rays.

FALSE

It is possible that cosmic rays influence cloud cover, but the latest research suggests any effect is too small to play a significant role in climate change.

Lack of warming in the lower atmosphere proves anthropogenic global warming is a myth.

FALSE

There is no longer a serious discrepancy, as claimed in a 2007 paper, between predictions of climate models and observations of the troposphere.

Coming out of the Ice Ages, the changes in CO2 came after the warming began, so CO2 doesn't affect atmospheric temperatures.

HALF TRUE BUT FALSE CONCLUSION

At the end of the Ice Ages, variations in the Earth's orbit and the angle of the axis warmed the planet again, followed 200 to 2000 years later by rising CO2. The CO2 amplified the initial warming, making the periods longer and warmer than they would otherwise have been.

Antarctica is cooling, so that proves the global climate isn't warming.

FALSE

While parts of Antarctica seem to be cooling, the continent is warming, and even the localised cooling and sea-ice expansion is consistent with climate change theory.

We should wait until there is more evidence before reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

WE'VE ALREADY DONE THAT AND THE EVIDENCE IS IN

The physics of the warming potential of greenhouse gases was worked out more than a century ago. The world is rapidly approaching points at which high risks of dangerous climate change are no longer avoidable.

Full coverage of the Copenhagen summit at smh.com.au/environment

Original article
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 09:13:58 PM by Michael »

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1306 on: December 08, 2009, 09:46:41 PM »
Quote
British to review data on weather after scandal
PAOLA TOTARO HERALD CORRESPONDENT
December 7, 2009

LONDON: The British Meteorological Office is to undertake a three-year reanalysis of its temperature data and has asked 188 nations - including Australia - for permission to release raw weather data in the wake of the climate-change email scandal.

The decision comes in the wake of the theft - and publication on the internet - of thousands of emails and text files from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.

The emails, many of them written by its director, Phil Jones, appeared to suggest that there had been attempts to stymie the public release of information on raw data. The university has announced an investigation and Professor Jones, who denies the claims as ''rubbish'', has stood down during the inquiry.

read full article: British to review data on weather after scandal

Offline TIOTIT

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Offline TIOTIT

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1308 on: December 09, 2009, 10:07:41 PM »
Money makes the world go round the world go round...

Copenhagen climate summit in disarray after ‘Danish text’ leak
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 8 December 2009 14.09 GMT

The UN Copenhagen climate talks are in disarray today after developing countries reacted furiously to leaked documents that show world leaders will next week be asked to sign an agreement that hands more power to rich countries and sidelines the UN’s role in all future climate change negotiations.

The document is also being interpreted by developing countries as setting unequal limits on per capita carbon emissions for developed and developing countries in 2050; meaning that people in rich countries would be permitted to emit nearly twice as much under the proposals.

The so-called Danish text, a secret draft agreement worked on by a group of individuals known as “the circle of commitment” – but understood to include the UK, US and Denmark – has only been shown to a handful of countries since it was finalised this week.

The agreement, leaked to the Guardian, is a departure from the Kyoto protocol’s principle that rich nations, which have emitted the bulk of the CO2, should take on firm and binding commitments to reduce greenhouse gases, while poorer nations were not compelled to act. The draft hands effective control of climate change finance to the World Bank; would abandon the Kyoto protocol – the only legally binding treaty that the world has on emissions reductions; and would make any money to help poor countries adapt to climate change dependent on them taking a range of actions.

The document was described last night by one senior diplomat as “a very dangerous document for developing countries. It is a fundamental reworking of the UN balance of obligations. It is to be superimposed without discussion on the talks”.

A confidential analysis of the text by developing countries also seen by the Guardian shows deep unease over details of the text. In particular, it is understood to:

• Force developing countries to agree to specific emission cuts and measures that were not part of the original UN agreement;

• Divide poor countries further by creating a new category of developing countries called “the most vulnerable”;

• Weaken the UN’s role in handling climate finance;

• Not allow poor countries to emit more than 1.44 tonnes of carbon per person by 2050, while allowing rich countries to emit 2.67 tonnes.

Developing countries that have seen the text are understood to be furious that it is being promoted by rich countries without their knowledge and without discussion in the negotiations.

“It is being done in secret. Clearly the intention is to get [Barack] Obama and the leaders of other rich countries to muscle it through when they arrive next week. It effectively is the end of the UN process,” said one diplomat, who asked to remain nameless.

Antonio Hill, climate policy adviser for Oxfam International, said: “This is only a draft but it highlights the risk that when the big countries come together, the small ones get hurting. On every count the emission cuts need to be scaled up. It allows too many loopholes and does not suggest anything like the 40% cuts that science is saying is needed.”

Hill continued: “It proposes a green fund to be run by a board but the big risk is that it will run by the World Bank and the Global Environment Facility [a partnership of 10 agencies including the World Bank and the UN Environment Programme] and not the UN. That would be a step backwards, and it tries to put constraints on developing countries when none were negotiated in earlier UN climate talks.”

The text was intended by Denmark and rich countries to be a working framework, which would be adapted by countries over the next week. It is particularly inflammatory because it sidelines the UN negotiating process and suggests that rich countries are desperate for world leaders to have a text to work from when they arrive next week.

Few numbers or figures are included in the text because these would be filled in later by world leaders. However, it seeks to hold temperature rises to 2C and mentions the sum of $10bn a year to help poor countries adapt to climate change from 2012-15.

Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1309 on: December 09, 2009, 10:43:55 PM »
Afraid I can't take American Thinker seriously, as a propaganda arm of the rabid US Right. I will wait till the data is officially re-assessed and peer-reviewed. Meanwhile, I'll just look out the window and at my thermometer.

As for the 'Danish text' leak. I know this is just one of many drafts, but from what I have been reading, it is nothing new to the G77+China. There has been a concerted undermining by the EU, US, UK and Australia. It all began when the US wanted to join the camp on the basis that Kyoto would be dismantled - ie. no binding measures.

I expect this may be only the first of a series of destabilising revelations of the game being pushed through by the rich nations. They are not serious about action - they are into money-politics. The answer is simple: a carbon tax. But unfortunately that is politically impossible in any country.

Offline TIOTIT

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1310 on: December 14, 2009, 11:51:15 AM »
Sourced from #2 of the top ten (7) approved sites that we can trust....

Climate change: Minority report

Climategate does not just demonstrate the corruption of science and peer-review; it also demonstrates the incompetence of specialists who do not understand planetary ecology

By Peter Taylor
Al-Jazeera
December 8, 2009

Some climatologists believe current rises in temperatures and melting icebergs are part of of the Earth’s natural cycles, and not induced by man-made devices [EPA]

Concern over global warming has spawned such a highly charged and polarised political movement, that real science has become sidelined in favour of sound-bites and simple messages. The real science is not as ’settled’ as some politicians would have us believe.

There is a significant minority of climate scientists who look at the data and conclude that we are dealing with natural cycles that are peaking just as they have done on a regular basis over centuries.

These scientists are heavily outnumbered by the proliferation of computer specialists who have created their own virtual planet – people trained in maths and physics who may never have handled an ice-core, tree-ring apparatus, sediments or stalagmites and all of the proxy indicators of past temperature cycles.

In my view, the UN secretariat has marginalised their careful assessment and warnings about natural cycles in favour of alarming future projections generated by the computer model.

These real climate scientists know that the last major warm period was a 1,000 years ago when the Vikings grew crops in Greenland – their graves are still solid in the permafrost.

In between then and now, Europe and China experienced a Little Ice Age – with widespread famine.

Reading the fine print

There is so much spin that you have to read the small print of the UN reports where they admit to not understanding natural cycles and what drives them.

Behind the scenes they acknowledge cycles are at work and contribute to the warming and that it is only from the model that they derive the dominance of carbon dioxide.

But the model does not easily simulate the poorly understood cycles. Satellites do a better job and having spent three years studying the data I conclude global warming is real but at least 80 per cent natural cycle and 20 per cent human emissions.

My conclusions are supported by recent climate shifts that run counter to model predictions. From the data on cycles I could predict that after 2007, when Arctic summer ice reached a record low, it would start to recover.

In 2008, it came back by 10 per cent. The majority expected it to continue its decline to ice-free status by 2015. In 2009, it grew by another 10 per cent.

Little Ice Age

The models beloved of the majority also predicted that the high-level winds, known as the jet-stream, would shift north as the globe warmed.

The jet-stream directs wet weather from the Atlantic and in 2007 they shifted south, bringing widespread flooding to Western Europe.

I have seen a minority report in Nasa’s archives which shows that the jet-stream shifts south as the magnetic field of the sun falls and this was characteristic of the Little Ice Age.

In 2007, the sun’s magnetic field fell to an all time low and this repeated through 2008 and 2009, as did the floods.

Many solar scientists point to a link between this magnetic field and climate on Earth and when the field is low, the Earth cools.

During the low in the 17th century the Thames in London froze every winter for 50 years and summers were a washout.

Chinese and Russian scientists have better knowledge of these cycles, because the cold periods induce widespread famine – and some of them see all the signs of a new Little Ice Age.

Perhaps that’s why their governments’ sovereign funds are buying huge tracts of productive land in the tropics – for food.

You may ask – if this is real science, how can the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change ignore it and claim the warming is caused by carbon dioxide.

Global spin?

In fact, the scientists only agreed the warming is “very likely not due to known natural causes acting alone” – and that is spun by the policy-makers and the world’s media.

The not-known natural causes are subject to high-level research programmes because real scientists know they exist and are powerful. And no real climate scientist ever said natural causes are acting alone.

Up until the recent ‘climate-gate’ scandal, I accepted that the objective data could be trusted.

But it now appears scientists upon whom the UN relies were busy manipulating the data to produce a warmer globe and to eradicate what they call ‘blips’ (i.e. cycles) that they cannot explain.

To compound matters, they then sought to undermine the Freedom of Information Act and delete their records in advance of requests for the data.

The issue of causation is crucial. The poorest people are already at risk whether the globe warms or cools.

We need action on the real and immediate threats facing human support systems from unavoidable natural climate change – but less than one per cent of resources devoted to climate are spent on adaptation, the rest goes on what will be ineffective attempts to ’stop climate chaos’.

Peter Taylor is an ecologist and author of ‘Chill: a reassessment of global warming theory’.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 11:53:07 AM by TIOTIT »

Offline TIOTIT

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1311 on: December 14, 2009, 12:28:49 PM »

Offline TIOTIT

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1312 on: December 14, 2009, 12:51:43 PM »
Here is a page maintained by an Australian researcher
into the climate debate....I don't know if he has any
woudy wabid wight wing wascal agenda....it appeared very
thourough and well presented to me....

http://www.john-daly.com/polar/arctic.htm

Offline TIOTIT

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1313 on: December 14, 2009, 01:05:39 PM »
it may soon become apparent we need to stop and reaccess
the current madness being inflicted on humanity by the minorities
who stand to profit from a global tax.....


Quoting John Daly....

Much as I hate relying on a handful of data points, their consistency throughout the Atlantic is compelling. and I do not think a thousand additional data points will change the conclusion. The principal driver of the northern temperature is the heat content of Atlantic. And this is driven by long cycle trends in cold water flow from the Antarctic.

The maximal response to this is ultimately found in the Arctic where an increase in heat will eliminate perennial ice and allow warmer summers and cleared summer seas. Once this has occurred, collapse will be postponed initially when the heat content goes into decline because of the lack of perennial ice. For example. it is very reasonable that the medieval warm period cleared the Arctic and this remained true into the lare fifteenth century in the face of declining heat. When it finally held on to its winter ice over summer, the impact on the climate was dramatic and completely noticeable to contemporaneous commentators just as today we are witnessing the effects of the decline in Arctic sea ice.

The point that I wish to make is that the temperature of the water drives the atmosphere, not the other way around. Hurricane Katrina did not warm up the waters of the gulf. So if you think that there are big changes happening, look to the ocean. Every other factor is a sideshow at best even if it is a very big sideshow like the excess particulate content from coal burning.

This also makes the hypothesis that human activity is a prime driver of climate change very weak. Let us simplify it. We are not the power we think we are. On the other hand we do insist on crapping in the nest and that surely has to stop. And using all that wonderful CO2 to create a highly productive and stable agriculture is a very forgiving solution. Our descendants will merely wonder what took us so long.

Offline TIOTIT

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1314 on: December 14, 2009, 01:43:46 PM »
I understand that Soma is not a forum on global warming...
even though it is currently the major shaper of our
understanding of the planet on which we all live and it's fragility
under the expansion of human impact..this should not allow
unelected representatives the ability to pass laws and restictions
on every aspect of our lives....even more than now....I understand
that Soma is meant to enliven consciousness so any information
that is pertinent to that process should be submited without fear of
redefining it's appropriateness as understood by any one perspective..
nobody here has a monopoly on the truth....all are searching...
and all are equal...each has the capacity to interpet their reality as
they choose....as they live it....and experience it...to each their own...



A seminal study into global warming by those at the centre of the ClimateGate controversy is now under scrutiny, with claims that the selection of weather data from Australia may have created an exaggerated warming trend.

Australian scientist Warwick Hughes says that up to 40 per cent of the data used in the Australian study from long-term records came from urban areas where data may have been affected by the Urban Heat Island effect – the phenomenon where heat-retaining surfaces in metropolitan areas cause significant increases in temperature compared to surrounding rural areas.

Hughes claims that the important 1986 study by Professor Phil Jones and colleagues has significant flaws. Professor Jones recently stood aside from his position as Director of the Climate Research Unit of East Anglia University pending an inquiry into information released in leaked emails - the so-called ClimateGate affair.

“For over 200 years Earth has been recovering from the Little Ice Age and the associated solar minimums so, of course, warming has taken place. Our position is to draw attention to what we believe are deficiencies in the Jones et al. methodologies which were important studies in the development of the global warming hypothesis,” Mr Hughes said.

“The Jones 1986 study looked at 86 Australian stations and rejected 46. Of the 40 they used 27 were examined over the short term and 13 over the long term. Of the long-term studies, five came from large cities. The 27 short-term stations were mostly only quoted from 1951 onward – regardless of what data was available. The years just post WWII were not prominently warm in Australia so an ‘automatic’ warming trend was reinforced into the CRU Australian component.”

Mr Hughes said numerous examples can be seen where records from particular sites that show warming are contradicted by weather records in nearby rural weather stations. Another anomaly in the study, he claims, is that no weather stations in New South Wales or Victoria were taken into account apart from those in capital cities.

“Those proposing huge changes to the world economy owe it to the rest of us not to use data that is contaminated by local urban heat islands,” Mr Hughes concluded.


Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1315 on: December 14, 2009, 02:56:30 PM »
The problem with trying to assess John Daly's material as with any other material, is that although someone posits a view, especially a well documented view (as the others are more easily dismissed), usually you will find a contrary view in reply.

The question is how we assess which view to accept as closer to the truth.

I haven't gone into Daly's stuff, but if you want to assess it, then you need to look at those who have responded to him.
eg: What's Wrong With Still Waiting For Greenhouse?
What's Wrong With Still Waiting For Greenhouse?

So which view do we believe?

As I am not an expert myself, in matters of science instead of Government spin, I tend to side with the majority of those who are directly involved. They may be wrong, but in this case, the huge amount of data on so many different aspects, is pretty overwhelming.

But science is built on facts-analysis-dispute. The dispute process is essential to getting things right. So well thought-out arguments against the accepted opinion are important, and should not be dismissed without due consideration.




Jahn

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1316 on: December 15, 2009, 06:59:48 AM »

April was regarded as a summer month this year in Sweden. Summer usually starts in July.
November was warmer than October which has never happened before, and also take into account that October was warmer than normal. Although this years October wasn't that warm as October 2005. Then we had an Indian summer and temperature well above 10 to 12 degrees Celsius. I remember Oct 2005 as very sunny and warm.


Offline Michael

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1317 on: December 15, 2009, 07:19:37 AM »
It appears we are moving into a new phase of this global warming sequence - stories of victims.

The Pacific Island nations have been known - I think one island has already been evacuated with about 200 going to New Zealand. But now I am reading of 8000 refugees from the Sundarbans, and floods and drought from higher temperatures causing faster and earlier glacier melting.

There are some stories from China also.

Then the Met in Aust claimed the horrific Victorian fires earlier this year were of a degree previously unknown due to the higher temperatures.

I expect we will begin to see a flood of stories from across the world about Climate Change victims. I also expect people will begin to blame all their woes on it, instead of on the Government.

Jahn

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1318 on: December 19, 2009, 06:15:33 AM »

2012 -The Movie

'2012' Trailer HD
'2012' Trailer HD

And I can't watch it  :P

Offline Nichi

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Re: WE'RE STUFFED!!!
« Reply #1319 on: January 03, 2010, 04:59:02 PM »
What about this?  Real or propaganda?

Quote
U.S. official: Extremists seek new ways to attack U.S.

        1 hr 32 mins ago
WASHINGTON – A top counterterrorism official is warning that al-Qaida and other extremists are working to test U.S. defenses and launch an attack on American soil.

National Counterterrorism Center Director Michael Leiter says the failed Christmas Day attempt to bring down a U.S. airliner is the starkest reminder of that threat.

Leiter said in a statement Saturday that officials "know with absolute certainty" that al-Qaida and others are trying to refine their methods.

The center is part of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. It draws experts from the CIA, FBI, Pentagon and other agencies who try to ensure that clues about potential attacks are not missed.

Terrorism expert Harvey Kushner of Long Island University said a significant concern is that many U.S. airports don't currently have the necessary technology to protect flights from the type of explosives attack attempted on Christmas.

The suspect, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, apparently assembled an explosive device, including 80 grams of Pentrite, or PETN, in the aircraft toilet of a Detroit-bound Northwest flight, then planned to detonate it with a syringe of chemicals. Passengers intervened, and the plan failed.

"What's disturbing about this is we're almost nine years after 9/11 and billions of dollars have been spent and we don't have in place a system which can make us safe in the air," Kushner, chair of the school's Criminal Justice Department told The Associated Press. "You'll never be able to harden the targets to rule out terrorist activity. But we need to spend more money and have more concentration on the dangers in the skies."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100103/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_airline_attack
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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