Topic: WE'RE STUFFED!!!

[erik]

What the flower are you personally doing to make it better?

Disassociate myself from my country and culture as well as from other stuff society (either local or global) yearns to impose.

[daphne]

One last thought... to anyone who feels energy around this entire thread about "we're stuffed".

What the flower are you personally doing to make it better?

Hmm.. I don't know that it will make anything better... but do you feel better for venting?   (often, I do!) 

[nichi]

It's simpler - you're American in relation other nationalities. If you said that 'American' is your 'identity', I'd say you have some role-specific expectations of self. You as an 'American' have your specific role to play with regard to 'non-Americans' - e.g. tell them how it is in America (that is quite something - call the US America while there are more countries around)

In international relations 'America' has been a 'bastion of freedom against bloody commies', 'democracy', 'superpower', 'liberal market economy', etc.

When we talk about 'culture', we could proceed from this:

Hollywood, Big M, McWorld, more than half of senators not having passports, Dubya, JFK, political correctness, country that has never had a Ministry of Culture, puritanic land that has turned pornography into a massive industry, NBA champions call themselves world champions, while the 'Dream Teams' have been whipped pretty impressively at real World Championships and Olympics, etc.

There it is - culture.

There must be some more positive aspects about it as well as 300 million people must produce something positive as well, yet about the overall balance of 'good' and 'bad' I wouldn't tell.

The US used to be 'melting pot': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_Pot

But it has apparently ceased to be one.

Fair warning about my reactive post here. I am going to vent a little, at Juhani and at myself and at others. It is my $.02 worth at this specific moment in time and that is all it is worth. That said, I felt the urge to respond to Juhani in regards to his last post here.

Juhani,

When you generalize in the negative way you sometimes do regarding "300,000,000 Americans", you appear to show either ignorance or perhaps subconsciously, you are simply dealing with petty issues inside yourself that you can't acknowledge.

There are definitely good people here in the US and there are "bad" people... that is life and it has always been so.

From a historical perspective, I see the US as the one great chance the world at large had to "get things right".  We obviously didn't. And we... the "collective we" that includes those of my blood and those of your blood.. simply flowered it up.

I hate to generalize, but in this case I will. I think the "melting pot" is more a reflection of the world.... the term in one sense means many came together to become one... and we didn't get it right.

And being an American, the state of America is partially a reflection me, but it is also a reflection of you and your country and your culture and your idioms and dogma and whatever the flower else is wrong with you and your society and society at large. This is the accelerated you and yours and mine.

You seem to hate America. That is certainly OK.  There are many things about America that I do not like.. and conversely, there are many things I love.

My thought right now is that when you feel such things, maybe you should take a look in your mirror...  ask yourself what it is you seem to despise so, perhaps you'll see a bit of yourself.

I won't post on this subject again, nor will I debate anyone on this because it does not matter one bit what I think or what you think. The world is what it is.... you own what it is as much as I do, or anyone else in the US or the world at large.

One last thought... to anyone who feels energy around this entire thread about "we're stuffed".

What the flower are you personally doing to make it better?

Disassociate myself from my country and culture as well as from other stuff society (either local or global) yearns to impose.

Last post from me on this...

Your "disassociation" as you phrase it, seems very clear from your energies "associated" with your string of posts in this thread. Think about it for just a moment, if you are so damn disassociated with it, why do you have so much energy around it?

I am through venting... and I may be wrong, but I may be right.

Peace and love to you...

One thing to remember .. this thread was forged by Michael to look at and become aware of the current tides and problems: in the world and in mass consciousness. I can't speak for Michael, but I do believe the intent was "awareness" of the problems.

Naturally, when one is speaking of problems, the thing takes on a negative air ... the nature of the beast, so to speak.

We haven't gotten too much into problem-solving, and I believe the consensus at one point came down to this: there are no solutions, and these are all words-to-the-wise to be used or eschewed for one's own future survival. For some, it has been stated (and not just for the US) that eventual flight was the solution.

That is to say, find that mountain now. Find that island now. Create your future haven now ...

I might have more comments later, but I suppose it would be good for all of us to observe in ourselves what inflames us, and to recognize antipathy in ourselves when it's present.

It's all learning.

We're all learning.

[Zamurito]

Hmmm....looks like another Silver Bullet moment 

http://restlesssoma.com.au/soma/index.php?topic=2933.msg23317#msg23317

[Muffin]

When you generalize in the negative way you sometimes do regarding "300,000,000 Americans", you appear to show either ignorance or perhaps subconsciously, you are simply dealing with petty issues inside yourself that you can't acknowledge.

Or it's simply watching the trends.

It's easier to talk about what a mass of 300,000,000 people do, then to talk about what 300,000,000 poeple do individually.
This is much along the lines of the concept of Asimov's Foundation series (thanks Juhani, a very nice addition imho). It's almost useless to talk about what the "good" people are doing, when the mass is made up of the "bad" people. What we (neither "good", neither "bad") can do is to watch where the world is heading as a result of the actions of the "bad" people. The good people are bugs in the system, small errors that cause slightly deviations. Ghosts in the shell. We can acknowledge their presence but you can't rely on them.
Trends are made by "bad" people.
For me humans are idiot regardless of the race. The presence of a few non-idiot human won't make humans less idiot.

As for the other subject, I only see it as a reflection of the world we live in. Personally I would find this poem not more and not less disgusting then a political brochure for the elections. I don't have disgust because I don't care about either of those.

The world is what it is.... you own what it is as much as I do, or anyone else in the US or the world at large.

I don't own the world, I'm just a trespasser. While I certainly have my part in creating the madness, my goal is very simple. Be in this world, but not of this world. It's been already said, that it's fundamental.

[Zamurito]

It's an emotionally charged issue when discussing race, nationality and country.

We can't change others, only improve ourselves (which is a entire topic in and of itself.)

Conflict will arise, and I was going to post the comments below in the 'Conflict' thread but didn't get around to it.  Just two cents from the peanut gallery. 

Conflict...
 
Is there any true 'conflict' external to us?
 
Seems to me there's only conflict within ourselves.

We just 'externalize' it by ‘thinking’ of past or future events...either our own 'thinking,' or from a re-action to an external source.  But the conflict is within us.
 
Now, if we choose to externalize this, and take it out on someone else, I call that a 'fight,' or disagreement, not conflict.  The conflict is within us.  Our outward expression of this conflict is then deemed 'disagreement.'  Thus more 'thinking.'
 
There is no conflict in the Absolute Universe, only in our relative worlds (perceptions.)
 
We are not separate, but together in the Universal Universe.
 
When we are 'separate,' it's our minds, egos, 'thinking' we are separate, thus conflict, then externalization.

z

[Michael]

just so long as we all remember that identity is not only who we believe we are, but also who we believe we are not:

It's simpler - I'm not American in relation other nationalities. If I said that 'non-American' is my 'identity', you'd say I have some role-specific expectations of self. I as a 'non-American' have my specific role to play with regard to 'Americans' - e.g. tell them how it is outside America.

The idea of freeing ourselves from our culture's claim on us, as emotive identity, also means freeing ourselves from emotive views of other cultures. We are more powerfully attached to what we consider we are 'definitely not'. We are more identified by what we despise, than what we admire.

In a conversation like this, Gurdjieff would call Stop! So we can all look at our emotions, and physical postures - like it or not, we are revealing ourselves... just so long as you know.

What has not been established first however, in this current debate, is why should we free ourselves from either our culture, or our 'not-our' culture? If we don't agree in that then we are barking up the wrong creek without a paddle, all over the place like wet dogs on lino.

And then of course, intelligent debate is at grave risk of vanishing like a fart in a fan factory.

[erik]

It's simpler - I'm not American in relation other nationalities. If I said that 'non-American' is my 'identity', you'd say I have some role-specific expectations of self. I as a 'non-American' have my specific role to play with regard to 'Americans' - e.g. tell them how it is outside America.

That's a good one!

I'd rather formulate it this way:

It's simpler - I'm not American in relation other nationalities. If I said that 'non-American' is my 'identity', you'd say I have some role-specific expectations of self. I as a 'non-American' have my specific role to play with regard to 'Americans' - e.g. tell them how America looks from outside America.

Estonia fares no batter in this context - sometimes Swedes and Finns show us how we look: little greedy nation trapped by historical fears, thoroughly focused on some aspects of 'pesent' - e.g. making money on oil transit and creating tremendous risk of killing large part of Baltic Sea in one major tanker disaster. This is not to mention other destruction we wreck continuously using our modest capabilities.

I keep stalking myself, Michael, when I say stuff like this. That's the purpose of this thread, isn't it?

[erik]

What has not been established first however, in this current debate, is why should we free ourselves from either our culture, or our 'not-our' culture? If we don't agree in that then we are barking up the wrong creek without a paddle, all over the place like wet dogs on lino.

Yes, why?
Because culture or non-culture are forms of social conditioning?
As the forms of social conditioning, they interfere with perception?
Anything interfering with perception stands in the way of accessing the knowledge directly and therefore on the way of expanding awareness as well?

[Michael]

So where is the place of pride in one's own culture, for a person dedicated to spirit?

Is there a place?

[erik]

So where is the place of pride in one's own culture, for a person dedicated to spirit?

Is there a place?

Yes, there is, but not for 'culture' as a whole, but only for certain aspects of it - or should I rather say 'certain aspects of our beingness'? There are things we do that bring us close to Earth, close to Spirit. It is an ancient energy inside us. That is valuable, but these traditions and energy are not even parts of modern culture, but are tucked away somewhere in the back corner of the closet of memory.

[nichi]

In my own travels with this Clan Soma, I've found it very educational and enlightening learning how the US is viewed by the world. Even though I had taken a critical stance myself already, the disdain held in general has tested every "ism" and sentimentality in me.  All in all, I have found that constant testing an excellent stalking tool.

I think even Krishnamurti said that one of the great evils in this world was nationalism. Rudi pointed out that to be in this world but not of it was our intended state of being ... and with that I agree.

Still, there have been points from time to time, where dispassionate criticism has gone over some line, and one gets the sense that there is a bit of zeal involved and more than a sporting interest.  When someone tells me that I can't escape my national karma, and that bombs (and whatever disaster) are going to befall me, and I will have deserved it, and ha ha ha .... there is more "emotion", however disguised, than "dispassion" would seem to warrant. It moves from "watching the trends" to "Die, you sucker", however it might get pulled back into some "disinterested" facade. "Die you sucker" has intent behind it, beyond the kind of healthy program-liberation in which toltecs engage.

It's been a challenge to me, and my own survival instincts have kicked in during all of it. Even if I understand the viewpoint of the predator, I still want to live ...

To those who don't live in the US, I'd say this ... you don't know the experience of being on the receiving end energetically of "Die you sucker" -- relentlessly, from multiple sectors.  Even from our sibling Clan members .. even from groups/countries who are our friends. Furthermore, neither do most of the 300 million Americans. Only a fair few of us are aware -- only a few of us 'know'. As my original post here was describing, we are far too involved in our own petty in-fighting to see the larger picture.

Which brings me back to my original description of the white supremacists ... Having cut my teeth on a fair amount of doom-prophesy (Mary Summer Rain and Sun Bear come to mind), I forgot to mention in that post that this was predicted .. that this racism/eventual call to violence was one of the signs ...

And that's why I posted what I posted ... More signs...

[Jahn]

We are not separate, but together in the Universal Universe.
 
When we are 'separate,' it's our minds, egos, 'thinking' we are separate, thus conflict, then externalization.

z

So which foot shall you chose to stand on?
We are not separate - that is true fromthe view of energy,  a universal point of view.

But man of today has his little ego and has made that pretender to the boss. The little ego is separated - and that is the truth.

So which of this is reality today - separetedness or not?

[Jahn]

Most of my childhood occured in Paterson, New Jersey, 20 minutes from New York City. I would walk home from school and smell dinners cooking along the way. There was a Puerto Rican block, a German block, a Greek block, an Italian block, a Hebrew block: everyone's mother spoke a different language. Our neighbors came from India. I loved that as a kid, and I thought that that was the way-the-world-was,

And I love such stories and to hear that so many cultures can be together in such a peaceful way.

and when I came to the South, I was shocked at the sea of white people, all dressing alike. When my mother brought me to my Junior High School,  I saw all the (white) girls, all wearing the same sort of shoes, skirts, and blouses, and I honestly exclaimed to my mother: "I didn't know this school had uniforms!"  It was so boring and homogenized and soulless.  And the call for conformity to it set me back decades.

Of course, I was a child and didn't know any better.

But you made a perfect observation, didn't you.

[Jahn]

What is white culture? I'll be darned if I know! It's in charge, I don't doubt it, but what the hell is it?
You can say you're Estonian, Jahn can say he's Swedish, but we interlopers don't really know from whence we came. It's a rare few... I have no "traditional costume" I can bring out of the closet to celebrate. So what are my roots, what is my culture? Indentured servants, starving diasporans? Ancestors who were on the lam? Secrets no one dares mention: that's my culture. I don't think I'm unique there.

Well Swedes are spread all over Europe and Swedes are a mix from all Europe but that happened some hundred years ago. Vikings ruled in Russia for some hundred years so you can see "Swedish" girls from Ukraina. Finland still has their Swedish talking society. And then the Englishmen, my father told me that he once visited a pub in Scotland and there sat a man at a table that where a precise copy of his own father, my grandfather. Many vikings settled in Scottland, England and on Eire.

Immigrants has come in waves and the greatest was Germans and Walloons during the 16th and 17th century. In the 1950's Italians were recruited to our industry, then came Polish and Slovenians workers. The Finnish came too but few settled, they work here for some 10 years and then return. Estonians do not go to Sweden they prefer to work in England. That was a background to the DNA mix.