Author Topic: For the Love  (Read 431 times)

tangerine dream

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2009, 09:17:44 AM »
Quote from: ♀♥Lady Urania♥♀ on January 04, 2009, 09:07:18 AM
Quote from: ♀♥Lady Urania♥♀ on January 04, 2009, 09:07:18 AM
Oh I know - I know you're not looking at following him or anything like that. It might even be good timing per things - spawn a difft topic - just cause we all have to be careful esp in this day and age of false gurus and the like. Unfortunately they're everywhere - and of course Lori, they'll give these good messages as a hook - but seriously, when you see that many allegations - they cant all be lying. I could see one or two disgruntles, but several like that? something wrong. eek.


Yeah I understand your point.  I'm just saying that what he may or may not have done is of no interest to me.  Let's say we found out that CC was a pimp on the side, and sold the witches to tourists, does that change at all what he had to say? If I can find some little gems in his writings then I think that's cool.    Ya know?

Of course I do not condone using children for sexual gratification or physical or mental abuse of anyone.   If that is what happened, if he took part in these sorts of activities, karma will have a lot to say (and do) on these matters.


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Re: For the Love
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2009, 09:58:12 AM »


Yeah I understand your point.  I'm just saying that what he may or may not have done is of no interest to me.  Let's say we found out that CC was a pimp on the side, and sold the witches to tourists, does that change at all what he had to say? If I can find some little gems in his writings then I think that's cool.    Ya know?

Well lets do this instead of change that. We know a bit about toward the end, a bit of Carlos's relationship to the Witches, which is a good example. IMPO - whilst them disappearing (in all likelihood they committed suicide in Death Valley, cause they found the Blue Scout there), Carlos's little circle of women was rather small, and even Amy Wallace's accounts in The Sorcerer's Apprentice, showed Carlos not to be of the level of abuse as Adi Da and his cronies - but sure, he had sex with the Witches and Amy. However, I have my own views on Amy and her issues cause she really made herself out to be some victim of Carlos and the Witches which she was not. He did not do any level of brainwashing and tactics to the level of others. But no, Carlos wasnt impeccable and at most in his old age was a horny old man. But nothing to the magnitude of Adi Da, so his dealings with the Witches werent to the magnitude and there is validity to practices they did. And then the other issue is sexuality and spirituality - there is validity in certain practices and places for it. I am not against it and not all are meant to be monks; however, great deal of misinformation in where it may have its place or not, and when it is 'sacred' or not, or anything which has to do with spiritual growth or not. Which I can probably delve into in another arena or place, esp when society and cultures may find this issue 'dirty' when you mix spirituality and sexuality - which that is not so. I suppose its like how one swings a sword - same deal. But the issues with adi da and exploits, which its certainly not the only story out there of self-annointed gurus and their victims - there is a too far and there is straight up indulgence which will reveal them the frauds they are. So per the messages, I still have to consider the source, and per this source I dont even think he believed the things he was saying when it came to spirituality. If he said 'you can get enlightenment if I break a coke bottle off in you" hed have had far less women in his spiritual circle, so of course he wasnt going to reveal what a pervert he was on the outer.

Quote

Of course I do not condone using children for sexual gratification or physical or mental abuse of anyone.   If that is what happened, if he took part in these sorts of activities, karma will have a lot to say (and do) on these matters.



Well its pretty obvious that per karma, if one say gets a serious responsibility and he probably did get some various abilities and so forth along the way, one can still achieve spiritual gains but if they exploit others with them - then its pretty much a given they really knocked themselves down many notches and will really have a hell of a time crawling out of the hole they dug for themselves on that one.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

tangerine dream

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2009, 10:37:06 AM »
Not discounting any of the allegations but as I was saying, I enjoy many of his articles and talks.   Here is a good one imo:


Quote
The Peace Law: An Open Letter

To the Entire Human Family

from Avatar Adi Da Samraj

My beloved every one,

I Offer the Communication in this Letter out of Compassion and Love for all human beings and for the entire world.

This is the moment of truth for humankind. Critical choices must now be made, in order to protect the continued existence of human society and of the Earth itself.

This letter is a Call to righten the collective moral disposition of humanity, and to establish a truly cooperative global human community on that basis.

In this Message to all, I call upon the leaders and educators of humankind to actively embrace, and to universally declare and promote, and to actively require the universal real fulfillment of the simplest Law and Measure of humankind, which I have stated in the form: "Cooperation + Tolerance = Peace". The acceptance of this Law as a universal discipline is the basis for (progressively) resolving the current plight of humankind.

I. Why War Must No Longer Be Allowed

Until the twentieth century, the destructive potential of war, though great, was (nevertheless) limited. There was a limit to the number of governments that had access to the most powerful weapons, there was a limit to the destructive potential of those weapons, and there was a limit on the geographic range over which such weapons could be exercised. Therefore, the violence and devastation of war, though horrific, was nevertheless (to some degree) contained.

Since the mid-twentieth century, the previous restrictions on the destructive potential of war have ceased to be the case. The ability to manufacture or obtain technologically sophisticated weaponry (whether nuclear, chemical, or biological) is no longer limited to the few, to the governments of the wealthiest and most powerful nations. Indeed, such weapons can potentially be obtained even by small groups of people determined to further their own particular agendas, at whatever cost. And the destructive potential of existing weaponry is now sufficient to cause unimaginable devastation. Thus, humanity is faced with two new and dangerous realities: The number of parties with relatively easy access to extreme weapons of war is proliferating rapidly, and the destructive power of those weapons is virtually unlimited.

In the past, it was only the "superpowers" that had the most destructive weapons. Thus, there was a time when it was plausible for a superpower to presume that, by using conventional weaponry, it could keep outbreaks of armed violence under control, at least to a "satisfactory" degree. However, that time has passed.

When sophisticated weapons of mass destruction are in the hands of many, war (and even armed conflict altogether) ceases to be something that can be "won". The governments of the world are, in general, acting as if they do not understand or accept this current reality. Since the twentieth-century, war itself has become a threat to all of humankind—not merely to the parties directly involved in any particular conflict. Therefore, just as slavery came to be recognized as inhumane and (thus) unacceptable, so also war must be made obsolete and no longer to be allowed. War is a past way of doing things that no longer makes sense and can no longer be accepted as an appropriate instrument of policy in the modern world.

It may seem naive and idealistic to say that war must no longer be allowed, but this call for the eradication of war is, in fact, a necessary response to two basic realities: (1) the vastly increased availability of the weapons of mass destruction and (2) the ego-based (or self-centered) nature of the un-Enlightened human being. Given these realities, war must no longer be allowed as an option—the risk involved is far too great.

Therefore, in order to ensure its own survival, the human family must collectively make the choice to refuse and repudiate all acts of war. When that refusal and repudiation occurs, the governments of the world (and even military oriented "interest groups" of all kinds) can be collectively called upon to reject the very possibility of waging war. And , in order to hasten that collective rejection of war, people everywhere, and (particularly) leaders in all fields of human endeavor, must join in speaking this warning: War simply must be ended now—before it destroys humanity and the Earth itself.

II. The Root of War

The un-Enlightened human individual is in a state of constant concern for his or her self-preservation (even though this concern may not always be conscious). This self-based, (or egoic) pattern (or orientation toward existence) is manifested as the psychology of search and conflict relative to all that is presumed to be "not-self". Thus, human beings are inherently disposed to control and dominate all that they presume to be "not-self". For this reason, individual egocentric lives are a constant expression of fear, sorrow, anger, and un-love. Except for the greatest saints and sages, every individual—whether "leader" or "follower"—is controlled by this egoic pattern. And the collective life of egocentric human beings (expressed in organized groups of all kinds, including governments) is dominated by the same motives toward self-preservation and toward control of what is "outside"—leading to the collective expression of fear, sorrow, anger, and un-love.

Mankind, indoctrinated by materialistic philosophies, ego-serving technologies, and gross political idealisms is possessed by the mechanical and emotionally negative efforts of self-indulgence (and anxious release-seeking efforts of all kinds), and chronically depressed by the frustration of the Spiritual and Divine impulses that are the inherent characteristics of the heart of every living being. The ego-'I', whether individual or collective, is eventually reduced to sorrow and despair, because of (and as an experiential result of) the inability of life (in and of itself) to generate Happiness and Joy and Immortality. And that self-contained depression finally becomes anger, or loveless confrontation with the total world and every form of presumed 'not-self '—by means of conventional (or merely exoteric) ideas of 'God Apart', and is (thereby) made into an 'Other' by the egoic mind. And, when anger becomes the mood of human societies, the quality of fire (or the primitive and destructive intent of the frustrated ego) invades the plane of humanity. That fire is expressed as all of the aggression and competitiveness (and all of the resultant sufferings and painful illusions) of mankind, including all of the ego-based politics of confrontation. And that ego-fire is, finally, summarized in the acts of war."


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Re: For the Love
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2009, 01:07:11 PM »
Lori, you like Ken Wilbur, right? He wrote this on 10-11-96 about Adi Da.

What im trying to understand is this - now I know, what you're doing - youve got a serious shift at being able to see the 'good' in folks, and its got an innocence and I respect that. Still, adi da is basically a group rapist and other things. With seeing that, how can you continue to post him? Im honestly, sincerely, trying to understand. Cause say I found out dalai lama had done many horrible things to women? Id renounce anything to do with, or even read, or anything at all.

Anyway, Ken Wilbur speaks.

The Case of Adi Da (Da Free John)

Written by Ken Wilber on Oct. 11, 1996

http://www.adidaarchives.org/wilber_da_1996.htm

The last positive statement I made about Da's work was in 1985, when I wrote a very strong endorsement for his major book, The Dawn Horse Testament. This is one of the very greatest spiritual treatises, comparable in scope and depth to any of the truly classic religious texts. I still believe that, and I challenge anybody to argue that specific assessment.

The teaching is one thing, the teacher, quite another. By this time (around 1985), things were starting to become very problematic for Da, his personal life, his community, and his teaching in the world. In ways that we are just beginning to understand, some types of spiritual development can run way ahead of moral, social, interpersonal, and wisdom development in general. Da is capable of some truly exquisite insights, but in other areas, he has fared less well, and this has increasingly verged on the catastrophic.

It is always sad to see such promise run aground on the rocks of personality problems. As this was becoming increasingly obvious to even his most appreciative students, including me, I did an interview with Yoga Journal (September/Octobers 1987). In that interview, I made my very last public statement about Da. For the next decade, I would publicly say nothing about him whatsoever (until now). Thus, for the last ten years, here has been my official stance these are the last sentences of that statement:

“[Da] makes a lot of mistakes. These are immediately reinterpreted as great teaching events, which is silly. And then he gets mad and frustrated and goes into sort of a divine pout ...…. Because of these and other difficulties, he has holed up in Fiji, become very isolated and cut off, which I think could be disastrous, for him and for the community. The entire situation has become very problematic. It's real hard to get happy about what's going on.”

“Problematic” was the euphemism that sociologists at that time were using for Jonestown. Although few think Da will slide that far, nonetheless, his entire teaching work has indeed become problematic. The great difficulty is that, no matter how "enlightened" you might be, it take s a certain amount of practical wisdom to gauge the effects of your teaching work on the world at large. Crazy wisdom might (or might not) be fine for a few very close and longtime devotees. But it is disastrous when done as a large scale social experiment, which Da did, especially during the “Garbage and the Goddess” period. Anybody who could not see how that experiment would be perceived by the world is simply a damn fool. And an enlightened damn fool is even more culpable.

Those events sealed Da's fate in today's world. His teaching work is effectively ended for all but a small handful. And he will never be able to teach in this country, or virtually anywhere else, either, because his past will follow him. It is altogether sad, then, to see him continue to announce that he is the World Teacher. He won't even venture out in to the world! He hides in Fiji, away from the glare, away from the world, away from the truth at large. And he calls us to his little island kingdom, there to save the world. This verges on the grotesque.

Is there any chance that Da can rehabilitate himself? His claim, of course, is that he is the most enlightened person in the history of the planet. Just for argument, let us agree. But then what would the most enlightened World Teacher in history actually do in the world? Hide? Avoid? Run? Or would that teacher engage the world, step into the arena of dialogue, meet with other religious teachers and adepts, attempt to start a universal dialogue that would test his truths in the fire of the circle of those who could usefully challenge him. At the very least, a person who claims to be the World Teacher needs to get out in the world, no?

This doesn't mean Da would have to attend every conference, give hundreds of lectures, hit the talk-show circuit, etc. It simply means he would at the very least find ways to directly engage or at least meet!--some of the prominent leaders in the fields of religion, politics, science, and administration. As it is, he won't even meet with other leaders, such as the Dalai Lama, unless they become practicing members of his church! Hello?

To step out in that fashion requires moral courage. It requires a willingness to engage and respond. It demands a brave heart to stand forth and shine, not just to a few hundred in Fiji, but to an unbelieving world.

Until this happens, I can recommend to no one that they take up the isolationist practices of the Daist community.

At the same time, this should not prevent us from taking advantage of that part of Da which isn't broken, namely, his clear (if isolated) spiritual writings and insights. If nothing else, his written texts are still an extraordinary source of material. Even if you do nothing but disagree with them, you will at least see a stunning number of ideas and insights and methods, which you can check for yourself and see if they actually work or not. Nor should his personal problems negate these insights. Even if Einstein was a complete psychotic, E still equals mc2. Let us not deny the latter because of the former.

We await, then, the day that the World Teacher consents to enter the World. Until that time, it is perhaps best to watch from a safe distance, while availing yourself of those written texts that still manage to shine with a light of their own.

Ken Wilber

Oct. 11, 1996
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 01:10:28 PM by ♀♥Lady Urania♥♀ »
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2009, 01:26:14 PM »
Now to add onto the story cause I knew about it. I have one of Ken's books and know about him, but he was somewhat a student at one time of Adi Das, gave him an endorsement, and then, when push came to shove, esp. the more Ken Wilber became more in the public eye, and many were asking him to make a statement of his past affiliation - Ken had to save his ass. So, he didnt wish to go back on his statements of Adi Das work, having merit, cause then he'd put a foot in his mouth on it. But personally looking at Ken's own work, which is quite different from Adi Das (and much cleaner - though Ive always felt Ken is really intellectual - however, for the intellectual spiritualist this is fine. He is an Aquarius so this is part of Ken's nature, which is cool for him). Regardless, the man still has good insights, but I dont think he's accomplished the great theory of everything task, though he may believe he has.

In looking at Adi Das work, say comparing Osho may come to mind. I dont personally believe Adi Da was an authentically enlightened being - he may have tapped on some valid things - but really didnt hit it. I do believe, however, Osho did. Osho, certainly had his controversies, but once again not to the magnitude of Adi Das. Plus, I believe toward the end, Osho began slipping into some psychosis, esp per his meditation techniques - he pushed himself too far - and also, per his management team, I think they took advantage of him, and doped him up a lot, which is the real reason the whole poisoning incident at the salad bar in Oregon took place. Osho was just something they were using themselves to stay in business. So they doped him up to keep the money flow going, and poisoned the folks at the salad bar per voting day, which got them in trouble. But still, Oshos work was still good, so I wont dump osho over the controversies. I think he just ended up getting used, and sure strayed something within, which of course begs the question if he was ever enlightened to begin with, since he had a 'fall,' but I believe that hes still a physical person who could be bound to mental illness. However, I do not believe osho was a psychopath like Adi da was. Adi da was extremely abusive.

Another thing too, per what ken wilbur said, true, dalai lama, Adi da wouldnt visit with him unless he joined his crew and became a member. Thats extremely arrogant and self important. Even Osho visited and met with the dalai lama and never requested such a thing.

Any way, its interesting regardless. The whole deal. Amazing how it all works. But anyway, certainly Ken wished to save himself; however, it also shows there was overwhelming evidence against adi da to begin with if he did that.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

tangerine dream

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2009, 02:52:15 PM »
Yeah I love Ken Wilber.  I read that a little while ago, actually.  Wilber has a lot to say on Adi da.



To answer this:

Quote
What im trying to understand is this - now I know, what you're doing - youve got a serious shift at being able to see the 'good' in folks, and its got an innocence and I respect that. Still, adi da is basically a group rapist and other things. With seeing that, how can you continue to post him? Im honestly, sincerely, trying to understand. Cause say I found out dalai lama had done many horrible things to women? Id renounce anything to do with, or even read, or anything at all.


Like I said, I am not endorsing or defending Adi Da, I just found some writings I like.   

My mom always used to give me heck, for not holding people accountable for their actions, for separating the person from the behaviour.   Maybe that's what I am doing now, but to me,a person is not his actions.  I think the fact that he does have some pretty incredible messages of Peace and love posted speaks to the fact that he can not be all bad.   I am not saying he isn't self important, that is quite evident in a lot of his writings, plain to see for sure.

Could he have mistreated, misled and lied to people?  Of course it's possible.   But it's not for me to judge.  As it is not for me to judge whether the Dalai Lama has abused children, and runs some kind of weird underground cult as has also been alleged.    How do we ever really know for sure? 

I'll leave the judging to those who do it well while I prefer to concentrate on the messages of peace.  If a good message comes from a questionable or misguided source, does it negate the message?   I don't think so.  I think a good message can stand on it's own.   The message is what is important (to me).

Edit to add:

Quote
At the same time, this should not prevent us from taking advantage of that part of Da which isn't broken, namely, his clear (if isolated) spiritual writings and insights. If nothing else, his written texts are still an extraordinary source of material. Even if you do nothing but disagree with them, you will at least see a stunning number of ideas and insights and methods, which you can check for yourself and see if they actually work or not. Nor should his personal problems negate these insights. Even if Einstein was a complete psychotic, E still equals mc2. Let us not deny the latter because of the former.

Ken Wilber

Oct. 11, 1996

 8)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 03:02:17 PM by dream »

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2009, 03:04:27 PM »
Lori, seriously, we are not our actions? The great philosopher Goethe said, "we become what we do." Now, for myself, I do honestly commend you, that you can see the good in folks, and their buddha nature, I can. Cause at the core, we all have goodness. And it may be debatable, if the core can be polluted. I believe it can be.

Now, lets just say, guru is a mirror. But guru comes and is like adi da. This is what I would do if somehow I landed in Fiji, and in some sexual theatre with his cronies, and they asked me to, have group sex while he filmed or watched, and showed me some coke bottle.

Firstly, I am not a monk. I am a warrior. And what I would do is this. I would, charge, adi da, grab his fat little ass, throw him to the ground, and start, kicking the shit outa him, and tell everyone to watch that. Then hed probably scream "thats whats wrong with you, you dont 'see yourself' clearly." I would, continue, to beat his ass, and say, "That may be right, but you're a disgrace, and have abused hundreds upon hundreds of women, in gods knows how many ways, and Im going to enjoy every single moment, of beating your ass." Then Id go find Montecore, who is that tiger who almost ate Roy Horn, on his birthday, at The Mirage hotel, and sic Montecore, on adi das ass, and watch him, tear him up, for all to see in the sexual theatre and I would laugh, and laugh and laugh. And I would feel really good about myself, and then, I would walk out laughing, and Montecore would walk out with adi das arm hanging from his mouth, gnawing on it, and I would call it a day, and be pleased.

Now, that may be so per mirror, but there is still, a fine line. I feel as a woman, as well as a serious person when it comes to spirituality, that such things are an abomination. And that, also, is my own nature when it comes to self-preservation.

So in seriousness, Im probably not as good that I can see the good and have to work on it. But... that, would be a very enjoyable experience for myself, if I had had the opportunity in my lifetime to have met adi da and been able to tell him what I thought about him. OM.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 03:06:44 PM by ♀♥Lady Urania♥♀ »
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

tangerine dream

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2009, 03:12:54 PM »
Quote from: ♀♥Lady Urania♥♀ on January 04, 2009, 03:04:27 PM
Quote from: ♀♥Lady Urania♥♀ on January 04, 2009, 03:04:27 PM
Lori, seriously, we are not our actions? The great philosopher Goethe said, "we become what we do." Now, for myself, I do honestly commend you, that you can see the good in folks, and their buddha nature, I can. Cause at the core, we all have goodness. And it may be debatable, if the core can be polluted. I believe it can be.

Now, lets just say, guru is a mirror. But guru comes and is like adi da. This is what I would do if somehow I landed in Fiji, and in some sexual theatre with his cronies, and they asked me to, have group sex while he filmed or watched, and showed me some coke bottle.

Firstly, I am not a monk. I am a warrior. And what I would do is this. I would, charge, adi da, grab his fat little ass, throw him to the ground, and start, kicking the shit outa him, and tell everyone to watch that. Then hed probably scream "thats whats wrong with you, you dont 'see yourself' clearly." I would, continue, to beat his ass, and say, "That may be right, but you're a disgrace, and have abused hundreds upon hundreds of women, in gods knows how many ways, and Im going to enjoy every single moment, of beating your ass." Then Id go find Montecore, who is that tiger who almost ate Roy Horn, on his birthday, at The Mirage hotel, and sic Montecore, on adi das ass, and watch him, tear him up, for all to see in the sexual theatre and I would laugh, and laugh and laugh. And I would feel really good about myself, and then, I would walk out laughing, and Montecore would walk out with adi das arm hanging from his mouth, gnawing on it, and I would call it a day, and be pleased.

Now, that may be so per mirror, but there is still, a fine line. I feel as a woman, as well as a serious person when it comes to spirituality, that such things are an abomination. And that, also, is my own nature when it comes to self-preservation.

So in seriousness, Im probably not as good that I can see the good and have to work on it. But... that, would be a very enjoyable experience for myself, if I had had the opportunity in my lifetime to have met adi da and been able to tell him what I thought about him. OM.

What if, after all that, you found out he didn't do what he was accused of?  What then?

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2009, 03:14:39 PM »
Then Montecore had a tasty snack, LOL
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2009, 03:40:19 PM »
In seriousness though Lori, lets say, allegations are true - then as adi da has left the world, somewhere, in a bardo, I guarantee you, a group of dakinis, have a coke bottle shoved up his ass, and he has to take all the pain he caused, and humiliation, and somewhere, a warrior woman such as myself, just stepped in and sic'd Montecore on him to eat his ass. Now, as he is 'there,' he will be put back together again, and it will happen again, until he gets a shot at birth, and is born as whatever, to have to repeat it over and over, til he can get it right and have a shot at responsibility, of enlightening himself, and potentially others, eons from now, in a far off galaxy, and maybe he can get it right then. Now though? I suspect, he's getting it, in a different way. That is called, karma.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

tangerine dream

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2009, 04:09:43 PM »
Of course and that's why I said it's up to karma to judge, not me. 

In all fairness, there is negative publicity and shady allegations over just about any religion or religious leader.  Even what's been called The Shadow side of the Dalai Lama.   Buddhist voilence,  Tibetan monks performing child abuse in monasteries, sexual abuse of child monks, tantric sex slaves, Buddhist Masters infecting disciples with AIDS, sorcery among monks -- the list goes on and on.    ::)

Yet this doesn't change the fact that Buddhsim has helped a lot of folks advance on their path toward enlightenment.  So, imo whatever helps is good.    If Adi Da or Dalai Lama or Joe Regular from down the street helps even one person find their truth, far be it for me to stand in the way of that.




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Re: For the Love
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2009, 04:32:06 PM »
"teaching", in the world of Action, is often best by example. Sometimes the example is how to be and do; at other times the example can be how to not be and not do.

"words", on the other hand, are often interpreted in the mind of those beholding them.  I've seen many great bumper stickers that have, at that moment, made impact on my mind, without even knowing the source they came from. To deny "good words" because they come from a disputable source is kind of like accepting something without thinking, just because it comes from a reputably 'good' source.
"The compulsion to possess and hold on to things is not unique. Everyone who wants to follow the warrior's path has to rid himself of this fixation in order not to focus our dreaming body on the weak face of the second attention." - The Eagle's Gift

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2009, 05:45:18 PM »
You know, believe it or not, I totally agree, and I was sincerely asking Lori about that, also cause of what she said here:

Quote
"As always in these matters, it is up to the seeker to listen with sincerity and humility to the still small voice within, and let themself be guided by that. Then they will know the true guru, and if they need an authentic guru they will be led to one." 

Because for myself, I feel that regardless to the source, her own 'inner teacher' say, was seeing merit to what adi da said, which really is more reflective of her, than anything on him. But for myself, it can be difficult, if I do know something about the source, mind is going to really have a difficult time of dropping certain things like say, 'what is his agenda' or 'does he really believe what he is saying' and so forth. And lori is absolutely correct, which ill get to in a bit, that there is a shadow side, to anything, and I wouldnt necessarily say to the dalai lama (though certainly hes got to have one) but say tibetan buddhism. Such as stories of various Lamas gone bad. I mean we're human after all, and many can succumb to power as it can get out of control. It makes me wonder if every man does have a price - I try to not be one of those who could be bought for something. That of course, is one of the reasons for us to do the work, cause even like MM posted a snip from Crossroads - we all are gonna hit a crossroads at one point (at least I gather) and make a choice per an act of power, in who we become.

But certainly found wise things said in all sorts of sources, and at times cringed when found the source. Maybe main thing is just dont accidentally follow someone who says wise things and is really a wolf in sheeps clothing, all we can do.

Interesting though per some of the articles on there, one of the ex's mentioned Adi da was a scorpio, lol. I chuckled a bit on that one. Charisma and sex and death, just scorpio seems to go hand in hand at times lol.


"teaching", in the world of Action, is often best by example. Sometimes the example is how to be and do; at other times the example can be how to not be and not do.

"words", on the other hand, are often interpreted in the mind of those beholding them.  I've seen many great bumper stickers that have, at that moment, made impact on my mind, without even knowing the source they came from. To deny "good words" because they come from a disputable source is kind of like accepting something without thinking, just because it comes from a reputably 'good' source.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2009, 06:30:21 PM »
http://www.adidaarchives.org/yes_mrs_presky_wilber.htm

"Yes, Mrs. Presky" – a post inspired by Ken Wilber’s continued endorsement of Adi Da Samraj (Da Free John) and failure to denounce him despite acknowledging his problematic behavior. Clever closing invokes Firesign Theater bit.

Posted to Shambhala Ken Wilber Forum in 1998 (and revised)


As the millennium approaches, I find myself reflecting upon just how screwed up a lot of the search for eastern-style “enlightenment” in this country has proven itself to be.  All of the phony gurus out selling themselves are a plague on society, of course, but what about the non-guru intellectuals who promote them?  Among the leading proponents of the new age quest, there are those like Ken Wilber who no longer see any problem with a belief system that permits them to acknowledge someone as an enlightened spiritual adept even when that person is known to be blatantly abusive to himself and others.

Wilber thinks Adi Da's books are extraordinary works evidencing unprecedented spiritual development on the part of their author. Yet he gives no consideration to the possibility that Adi Da's teachings, largely borrowed from others, might be just a bunch of fanciful nonsense, or that they might reflect his broad knowledge base and creative talents rather than his own Divine Realization. Worse yet, Wilber rationalizes Adi Da’s problematic behavior by explaining it as a legitimate form of spiritual instruction, even when it’s totally out of line with basic human ethics and human responsibility. Wilber just doesn't get it.

Wilber is not by any means alone in his error. The highly esteemed Jack Kornfield dedicated his most recent book, “A Path with Heart” to Chogyam Trungpa, the Adi Da of Buddhism. Trungpa was notoriously abusive, and behaved in particularly disturbing ways when he got drunk, which he apparently did on a habitual basis. His out of control habits contributed to his premature death, and others following in his footsteps met similar fates. Of course, Trungpa wrote books that some consider deeply insightful, but interesting ideas don’t equate to spiritual maturity.  To accept Trungpa as a spiritual realizer requires one to accept all kinds of rationalization for his lifestyle that fly in the face of the obvious.

What's wrong with these people like Wilber and Kornfield? Something is amiss. Something is mixed up. Their common sense goes AWOL in the presence of a person with charisma and a knack for expressing himself. There's a huge blind spot in these guys that keeps them from seeing the glaring failure of their whole version of “esoteric” spirituality. Why?

Their initial high hopes for eastern spirituality and gurus in the west, like many of ours, didn’t pan out quite as expected.  We were all naïve in the beginning.  But unlike those of us who didn’t make a career out of the spiritual search, they had a lot to lose if they admitted that they were mistaken, fooled, and misled. So instead, they just learned to put a different spin on what enlightenment looks like.  They accepted the idea that it was possible to be a complete screw-up on a human level, yet at the same time be one of the most enlightened beings in history and be worthy of the devotion of spiritual aspirants.

They were willing to keep supporting the guru game and the search for eastern-style enlightenment, even though it wasn’t producing the results we all hoped for, and the “enlightened” gurus turned out to have feet of clay.

This is not particularly surprising, since these new age scholars, like the gurus, had carved out a niche for themselves where their egos were endlessly fed and they had achieved a certain level of notoriety.  They were able to make a living talking and writing about transcending the ego, while their own egos just grew and grew. What better way to feel superior and important (while saying you’re not doing that), than to play the role of leaders and heralds of a new spiritual age. The whole trip is all about egotism run wild; that and the lust for power, the lust for fame, and the lust for approval -- all disguised as the revelation of truth and service to mankind.

The end game of their version of the search for enlightenment is a subjective, unobservable change in consciousness that they claim equates to ego-transcendence and awakening to “capital C” Consciousness, which is prized above all else in their belief system. And not only just "prized," but the ultimate and final source of Truth itself, a source that they themselves and an elite few have unique access to, with all of the attendant social status and power over others that this Divine access gives them.

How convenient for these gurus, whose livelihood depends upon their ability to seem enlightened to at least a small constituency, that the criteria and evidence for their realization are by their own definition elusive and essentially hidden from the view of those who are not also enlightened themselves.  No need to transform observable behavior patterns, nor to worry about ethics or morality, or to live a successful and productive life.  These changes are relegated to a lesser level of importance, and according to Wilber and his ilk are secondary to “transcendence” – which Wilber apparently believes can be aided by subjecting oneself to the domination or even abuse of a guru like Adi Da.

If the version of enlightenment that these guys are selling doesn’t manifest itself in an identifiable way in the observable, human dimension, then how does one validate a claim to have achieved it, and what’s its value even if they have?  Anyone can make a claim to this kind of enlightenment, since there’s no objective requirement to be met.  It seems that all we really have to go on in evaluating a claim of this type is the “enlightened” person’s own testimony,  and our own “unenlightened” intuition about something we are told we are incapable of grasping.  What we are left with comes down to pure faith.

Not only just faith, but faith that can be easily tainted by projection, wishful thinking, and the pervasive human tendency towards hero-worship in the domain of religion and elsewhere. This is the type of faith that opens the door to cultism, as we have observed repeatedly in recent years.  How many devotees of “enlightened” gurus in the West have fallen prey to harmful deceptions, and have suffered the consequences accordingly?

Even if we allow, for the sake of argument, that these gurus have actually gone through some kind of change in consciousness that they are labeling as enlightenment, is this something we would want to aspire to?  Do we really want to become more like Adi Da or a Chogyam Trungpa, in some fundamental respect?  Is it really worth a lifetime of “spiritual practice” to try and end up where they are?  In my view, that’s like devoting one’s life to the attempt to catch a serious disease.

These guys are egotistical, power-hungry people with serious character flaws who just happen to have been articulate spokesmen for a particular brand of spiritual philosophy.  Good salesmen?  Yes.  Exemplary human beings, worthy of veneration, enlightened masters you should turn your life over to?  Not in my book.

The most arrogant gurus (like Adi Da) are selling the belief that they continuously operate from an extraordinary perspective that allows them to transcend the illusions that bind the rest of us.  While many of us “unenlightened” folks have had temporary experiences that bare some resemblance to an ego-transcendent state, while stoned or in a moment of epiphany, these spiritual big shots claim to be there all the time. Not only that, they make the highly questionable assertion that they can miraculously help others to get into that same space.

But for all their promises about awakening devotees to a direct experience of “witness consciousness” or whatever they may call it, all they really have to offer is adherence to just another belief system.  It’s a belief system that elevates certain alleged subjective transformations in consciousness to the status of Truth itself.  Even if the process of transformation or direct gnosis itself does not require any type of belief, it is true that in order to interpret it the proponents of enlightenment invoke all kinds of extremely speculative beliefs about its meaning, significance and ontological status.

In any event, an examination of the traditions and the testimony of all but the most deluded devotees (and gurus) shows that for virtually everyone enlightenment remains forever a future goal and something they have not yet achieved themselves.  It is something they believe is possible because of the testimony of the gurus, and perhaps because of momentary intuitions they have had but can’t sustain. It’s no different from believing there’s a heaven you go to after death, or any other kind of religious belief.

And what has this approach to spirituality produced in the West?  A lot of cultism and an obnoxious fixation on subjective internal processes (real or imagined), along with the obsessive quest for an illusory and ill-defined goal of “ego transcendence.”  Most of the self-obsessed westerners who have lined up at the feet of so-called masters have had more in common than they’d like to admit with shoppers seeking the excitement of buying the latest must-have product, or druggies indulging in their substance of choice. It’s all about looking for a cure or distraction from the difficulties of our daily lives.

In the end, the hopeful and desperate search for relief, through esoteric spirituality or consumerism, brings only moments of temporary satisfaction. None ultimately escape the creative challenge of making peace with their own frail humanity, including the brute fact that they experience this world through the dualistic lens of “self” and “not-self,” forever separate, regardless of what they choose to believe (or what is really “true”) about the nature of reality.

While the seeker is still distracted in his pursuit of awakening, however, and the guru has been elevated to a status where his behavior is above question, the door is open for the guru to exploit the seeker as he sees fit. And that’s exactly what Adi Da and Trungpa have done, regardless of what it is they originally set out to do. Their interests in spirituality, coupled with a desire for power, evolved into careers for them that didn’t look much different from sophisticated “con” schemes – although they dressed themselves up in the language and imagery of eastern spirituality and pop psychology. New age wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Do you remember the Firesign Theater from the 1970s? They were a group of four wackos who did drug oriented comedy and were very funny sometimes. They did a routine where a lady named Mrs. Presky was a contestant on a TV game show. After she won a bunch of money, the slick game show announcer offered her a chance to trade all the money for whatever was behind door #2. Mrs. Presky went for it, expecting to win something really great.  Behind the door was a nice gift bag, which she unwrapped and opened up.  Seeing the contents, she exclaimed in shock, "Oh … why ... why this is a bag of shit!" The slick announcer enthusiastically replied, "But it’s really GOOD shit, Mrs. Presky.”

Well, there you have it. Wilber and Kornfield, Adi Da and Trungpa. Really good shit.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

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Re: For the Love
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2009, 06:48:07 PM »
This is one of those deals where, its actually good to see an example of this, and of course, Ive found, being on this path for a long time, and say exploring the east, from the west, it is a difficult thing to be able to learn, from this realm at times, about the east from the west, in an authentic manner. But one of the main issues which is difficult, is for us folks in the west, who may have set up an 'expectation' in mind, of what an enlightened guru would 'look like' and 'be like.' I, myself, dont necessarily see an enlightened guru in the garb trying to look like buddha or a lama and whatnot, like that. So I do my best to not set up any particular expectation, on appearances. However, there are times that the predators can pass themselves off, use some sleight of hand, esp with the foreknowledge how easily mind can dupe folks, and use the power of charisma to fool. This is actually where some good warrior techniques can be valuable. But also, the old saying "know thyself" at least to some degree, is really critical. On the spiritual path, we really walk a fine line, on the road (really within) to enlightenment. Muddle with all the options like 'transcending ego,' which I really dont even hook much on the term 'transcendence' even. Its about more, becoming real, growth, and learning. I dont have any special desire to become some shining bright light of a god or deva, and really buddha looks more like emptiness to me so I dont really view much of a 'form' with.

But there is some really basic red flag alerts we can use along the way, and one of them is we just have to be careful on the path. I suppose my capricornian sense comes in handy for it.

Still though, I do still stand by and accept that, we still do need teachers on the path at a certain point. Ive been in a few positions I felt like I was being recruited, IRL or online, and even the recruitment bothered me, or even someone trying to teach me some special model of the universe or what I see. Which really for myself, its about cutting illusions up, removing them best I can, not necessarily accepting a view to replace another. Im more into removing the webbing and getting it all out of the way.

But really is there something within us, and esp of the west, which already may have some lack of knowledge (thought we are getting better) and setting up incorrect expectations? But course, some basic expectations which are simple should be in place. Like when is something say, efforts to take on our ego, and when is it abuse? These should be obvious to us. Ive been lucky thus far, cause somehow, something surrounds me which does seem to keep me protected - that radar and bullshit detector aint going away anytime soon.

btw, just wanted to say, as I read this crap, makes me thankful soma is here, I appreciate it - makes me appreciate its presence more. OM to that one.
"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

 

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