Topic: The Conversation of Death

[nichi]

Interesting the different points of view!
 (((((t2f and e))))))

[Jennifer-]

That is bizarre, like there could be some acceptance by the prey, very interesting!

It is interesting.. this whole thread is!

When I hunt, there is acceptance in my prey. They do not present themselves the same if not. Its an inner knowing. Ive not taken many many deer for this reason.

[Jennifer-]

I have come across this before in some of my readings - theosophical stuff.
The connections between the different "kingdoms" - ie plant animal and human, and the Kingdom of Souls (the 5th kingdom)

adding..
it's we who give preditor and prey their meaning. In the above context, the persona is prey to the soul (in a manner of speaking). The 'ego' must willingly give way to the 'soul' - sort of "sacrifice" itself. There is much depth to that.

I feel due to my shapeshifting that I have kinship with animals as well as trees. Im not sure it would be possible to do such if not.

Well said Daphne, we are the ones giving that meaning.. in life its survial.. we are all animals imo

[nichi]

Its an inner knowing.

yes!

[Jennifer-]

Facts are facts.
Animal world is utterly violent.
Should it be taken as an example or role model for crafting human behaviour? Considering all the violence?

That is my question.

As for human behaviour and destructiveness...that is a whole different opera.

Imo we as humans are utterly violent and trained to a point we cant even see what we actually are doing. If we were to strip away all of our social training back to our primal selves I think the world would host a different human race all together eliminating all the harsh wars and brutal killings of ego.

We have indeed evolved greatly to which Im not saying isnt a wonderful thing..

But...

  Jennifer

[erik]

T2F, I meant a different thing.
Animals are like small children - they do not know what they are doing. I have torn off legs of a bug when I was small. I remember doing it. I've seen other kids doing similar things and looking with curiosity at the bug's reaction. For them it is interesting test, for bugs it is experiencing incomprehensible agony at the hands of huge monstrous totally insensitive thing. Yet kids have no ill intention, they are just plain unaware.

The whole animal life is being plain unaware (or very little aware), but extremely violent.

I'm not that interested in eternal childhood without developing any awareness. 

As Raven quoted elsewhere:

Jesus said, "Unless you become like little children, you cannot know the meaning of Life, for your minds must be cleared of the falsehoods of this realm if you are to be taught Eternal Truth."

In human life we develop awareness of our actions and have the ability to restore the purity of mind of a child, BUT with and by assimilating all the experience gathered of the world.

[niamhspark]

We kill things because they're in the way of our "progress" towards self-extinction.

There's a strange truth in that statement which is eerie. I do wonder why people can't come together on trying to save ourselves. We can be in cahoots to destroy ourselves easily via separation. But to save ourselves we can't quite get an agreement on it. Like everyone is waiting for something to save us from ourselves.

[Jennifer-]

Funny how we all veiw things differently and also nice for exploring..

I'm not that interested in eternal childhood without developing any awareness. 

As Raven quoted elsewhere:
Quote
Jesus said, "Unless you become like little children, you cannot know the meaning of Life, for your minds must be cleared of the falsehoods of this realm if you are to be taught Eternal Truth."

In human life we develop awareness of our actions and have the ability to restore the purity of mind of a child, BUT with and by assimilating all the experience gathered of the world.

I took the quote to mean children are more aware of their true selves lacking all the gathered 'reason' We do have the advantage of seeing this in our adulthood.. but from what Ive seen very few adults actually dive into that thought..

Maybe we are saying the same thing just in different words..

[tommy2]

I truly feel that us humans are actually realizing that we need saving from ourselves.  But will enough influential people say the right things to the most receptive ears?  And will these ears react in time?  Like any good thing for humanity, the ones who realize a certain goodness are decades ahead of the rest of the pack.  And the proverbial pack make the local, national and international decisions to start the process of saving ourselves from ourselves.  Is it too late for a mental and spiritual revolution of a global size?  Probably not, but who knows for sure?  It will not be the first time or the last time that the numbers of humanity dropped to a very small amount, right?  It's part of our evolution, for sure.

And we all need to often be like little children, in that the open heart and non-diluded mind can have their freedom to feel unfettered by the ego and be guiltless of bad Intent, don't you all think?  A child means no harm to another.  This is what I strongly sense that the Christ meant by "little children".  Just like it was probably meant that 'heaven" is the state of fearless non-suffering and love for all who we come into contact with.  We ARE all "one", right?


I am reminded here and now of my year-long meditation .........   "If there is no-self, then is there also no-other?"

I have yet to receive a vision on THIS one.  Maybe I won't or already have and I just didn't/couldn't grasp it.

Still wondering. t

[daphne]

I too have often wondered on the quote Raven gave - "Jesus said, "Unless you become like little children, you cannot know the meaning of Life, for your minds must be cleared of the falsehoods of this realm if you are to be taught Eternal Truth."

Like many of the sayings, I wonder if we are meant to actually understand the quote mentally, or is it a way to ponder and so break the mind's hold - ie meditate on it.
I suppose a bit of both..

Children have an ability to live in the moment - ie they experience Life without having some sort of context to put their experience into. Jesus did say "know the meaning of Life". The "falsehoods" of this realm are pretty much the conditioning and beliefs we grow up with, and mind becomes clear with awareness. If Jesus was indeed the shaman many attribute him to have been - then his words also would tend to be more in the realm of how to live, a way of life, than a theological discussion. An "eternal truth" that comes to mind, is Life is about living Life and being aware of being alive, the "aliveness" that we feel when 'in the moment'. I know for myself I feel more alive being aware than when thinking about being aware. It's like a still moment that goes on forever - well.. at least until my mind gets in the way!   

[erik]

I know for myself I feel more alive being aware than when thinking about being aware. It's like a still moment that goes on forever - well.. at least until my mind gets in the way!   

Now the 10-point question  is - is this the 'real' awareness or is it maya, too? Is it not just another way of dreaming? Can one wake up from that, too?

[daphne]

Now the 10-point question  is - is this the 'real' awareness or is it maya, too? Is it not just another way of dreaming? Can one wake up from that, too?

Yes.. I see it is also maya..  I am 'caught up in it' (so to speak) - somewhere though, the key to waking up from that too, lies in the dreaming. 

Interesting though, when I was into Osho, his 'take' on maya was that maya was was "almost real" - a bit different in meaning from the usual translation of "illusion".  It gave me a lot to ponder on.. still does!   

[erik]

Yes.. I see it is also maya..  I am 'caught up in it' (so to speak) - somewhere though, the key to waking up from that too, lies in the dreaming. 

Absolutely, dreaming and other stuff are just tools for finding keys. None of these techniques are keys themselves (at least I see it that way now). M wrote some time ago at TNF about parallel lines and there was a passage in it about shifting from two-dimensional flight into third dimension - doing 90-degree turn - in order to seek the true awakening. My question was inspired by that passage - it is nice to dive into the ever-expanding perception of the second attention, but where is that cubic centimetre of opportunity to move forward from there?

[daphne]

I am at present rereading The Art of Dreaming - different things sort of pop up!

Navigating the 2nd attention is also, I see it, a learning 'tool', not an end in its self. Perhaps in some way it relates to what you have been saying? The second attention is not the goal, any more than the first attention is. Even what is understood by the third attention is rather minimal information given us. The more we are aware of maya, in its various forms, the more I suppose we have a chance of not being distracted at that opportune moment.

That cubic centremeter of opportunity you mention, - to move on from there, -  perhaps that is a one time opportunity and we hone our skills for that one chance moment. Thats pretty much how I see death at the moment - whatever I learn through whatever tools is to prepare me for that moment so that I will recognize it..? I'm still swimming in the dark here..     the bardo states come to mind here too..

Perhaps it is not a moving forward but rather a moving sideways? Kind of like a phase shift. We are so used to (well at least i am) of speaking in terms of horizontal and vertical which somehow still convery 2D to me. The 3D you mention is how i see 'phase shift". I think that we can't so much 'seek' the true awakening, as much as it finds us, if we are ready. Somehow it's like seeking but without seeking, as when seeking, we often have an idea, however slight it may be, of that which we are seeking. We may then miss the opening! Perhaps it not called the unknowable for nothing!!   

[erik]

Well put! There are things you just cannot prepare for.