Author Topic: The Conversation of Death  (Read 848 times)

nichi

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The Conversation of Death
« on: September 23, 2006, 03:03:54 AM »
This came from one of my email lists to which I subscribe, "The Other Syntax Discussion", but I thought it was too interesting to not post!!

In the last, decisive moments before a wolf pack lunges upon its prey, something extraordinarily peculiar occurs - something writer Barry Lopez has called "the conversation of death."
 
The pack will circle a caribou or a moose herd, in plain view, seemingly signaling their intent to kill.  The prey animals will pause and make eye contact with the wolves.  And then some inscrutable communication, a ritual exchange little understood by humans, passes between them.
 
It's as if the prey signal back, either their willingness to be killed, or their determination to survive. A wounded moose, safely hidden in the grass, may rise on shaky legs, as if deliberately giving itself away. Though it could likely hold the wolves off simply by standing its ground, it suicidally turns tail and runs - the very thing most likely to draw an attack.
 
Other times, a concerned moose will trot toward the pack, make eye  contact, and the wolves will simply melt away into the forest, as though entirely distinterested. As if the prey animals fate had been decided by some mutual agreement, some ceremonial pact of long ago, between hunter and hunted. It's a conversation so naturally sublime, humans do not hear it.
 
That we find this behavior so curious demonstrates how little we know
about predator and prey in the wild - even though this intricate pas de deux of death, the sacred ritual of the kill, is central to the whole web of life.
 
- Stefan Bechtel
The Riddle of the Wolves
American Way Magazine
January 1995
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 11:54:39 AM by nichi »

Offline Jennifer-

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2006, 03:28:53 AM »
Excellent sharing :)
Without constant complete silence meditation - samadi - we lose ourselves in the game.  MM

Offline tommy2

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2006, 04:30:02 AM »
I surely pray that I can hold my wherewithal when "that day" comes and just face the pack and try not to blink.

f
t2f

nichi

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2006, 05:20:19 AM »
I surely pray that I can hold my wherewithal when "that day" comes and just face the pack and try not to blink.
f

I know what you mean, t2f!
"Not today!"

erik

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2006, 03:59:31 PM »
So the moose runs to attract the attention of wolves? But healthy and ill animals all run. Wouldn't it be more purposeful to exchange looks and simply stay there?

I admit, I'm 215% sceptic regarding such stories about animals. It makes me especially sceptic to hear about animals' ability to make conscious choices.

On the human side, I can give many examples where humans have known about their coming death and chosen and gone and faced it squarely.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 04:01:34 PM by gangster »

niamhspark

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2006, 04:28:46 PM »
That is bizarre, like there could be some acceptance by the prey, very interesting!

Offline daphne

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2006, 04:57:18 PM »
That is bizarre, like there could be some acceptance by the prey, very interesting!

I have come across this before in some of my readings - theosophical stuff.
The connections between the different "kingdoms" - ie plant animal and human, and the Kingdom of Souls (the 5th kingdom)

adding..
it's we who give preditor and prey their meaning. In the above context, the persona is prey to the soul (in a manner of speaking). The 'ego' must willingly give way to the 'soul' - sort of "sacrifice" itself. There is much depth to that.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 05:01:07 PM by daphne »
"The compulsion to possess and hold on to things is not unique. Everyone who wants to follow the warrior's path has to rid himself of this fixation in order not to focus our dreaming body on the weak face of the second attention." - The Eagle's Gift

nichi

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2006, 12:53:31 AM »
I admit, I'm 215% sceptic regarding such stories about animals. It makes me especially sceptic to hear about animals' ability to make conscious choices. 

Well it's true that the other animals aren't looking at who to vote for in upcoming elections, or reviewing their portfolios in order to determine where to invest their money -- or deciding which pantheon is the best one for their angst. Their reality is very different than yours or mine, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they don't make choices, that they don't reflect Spirit, that they aren't soul-beings who chose the deer-experience, or the moose-experience, or the wolf-experience, in their current incarnations.

They may not consciously consider how you and I interpret them : their filters are obviously different. But what this leads to, in my view, is an immediate apprehension of spirit, unencumbered by the handicaps we have! They are already in those other dimensions, the ones we often seek. Their grace is natural. Ours is too, but we spend a lifetime shedding the programming which intervenes with our direct experience of it. They don't -- they are born into it. They are!

As such, they're my teachers.

Heheh, E, I have a tray of peanuts for the jays. But when I was just on the patio, a jay flew to the tree in front of me (away from the tray), expectantly. I threw him a peanut. He scooped it up, and then flew over to the tray, putting it in the tray, then picked up another, put that one down and picked up another, again and again until he found the 'right' peanut for him. I don't know what his criteria was, but it's hard for me to see the other animals in a framework of non-choice. :D

This is a western idea, this superiority-of-humans notion. Something the church fathers misinterpreted in Genesis, I believe... To me, divinity is in all, spirit is in everything, and I don't care if the lions can't read the King's English!



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nichi

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2006, 03:39:47 AM »
To regard the lion and the water rats and our fellow men as equals is a magnificent act of the warrior's spirit. It takes power to do that. ...

~DJ

erik

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2006, 05:48:27 AM »
To regard the lion and the water rats and our fellow men as equals is a magnificent act of the warrior's spirit. It takes power to do that. ...

~DJ

Does it mean attributing the brutality and violence of animal world to humans, or seeing humans as no better than animals, or attributing some human qualities to animals?

Whenever I hear about follwing example of any animal or animal world, I'm throughly puzzled. How can the utter non-stop violence of that world be forgotten or neglected? There is an excellent French documentary called 'A day in bug's life' or something along these lines. It removes any illusion about how these things live their daily lives. How many kills are done in 24 hours, how many times violence against own species or other is used.

The row of examples is endless. Squirrels eating hatchlings, crows blinding  and killing cats, pigeons fighting each other to bits and pieces, dolphins raping their females and so on and on...

Human has become the most powerful predator on this planet. So powerful that he is utterly self-destructive. In general, he is at the same level with other animals. In this I agree. Yet he has potential to do better. Animals don't or practically don't have such potential (I agree that animals can be taught to modify their behavior, their own ability and awareness do not permit initiating such modifications though).

Apologies, if this sounds too dark. But these facts simply cannot be ignored.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2006, 05:54:31 AM by gangster »

Offline tommy2

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2006, 06:02:39 AM »
Depends on what you wanna call facts.  The four-legged and flying creatures have the potential of one day probably being the only species on this planet.  They can, have and will continue to evolve and adapt to their environment as we humans meerly destroy it slowly with no regard for future generations.  What the other animals so violently is usually out of necessity, don't you think?  We kill things because they're in the way of our "progress" towards self-extinction.

But this has been going on for ten thousand years, right? 

t
t2f

erik

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2006, 06:11:02 AM »
Depends on what you wanna call facts.  The four-legged and flying creatures have the potential of one day probably being the only species on this planet.  They can, have and will continue to evolve and adapt to their environment as we humans meerly destroy it slowly with no regard for future generations.  What the other animals so violently is usually out of necessity, don't you think?  We kill things because they're in the way of our "progress" towards self-extinction.

But this has been going on for ten thousand years, right? 

t

Facts are facts.
Animal world is utterly violent.
Should it be taken as an example or role model for crafting human behaviour? Considering all the violence?

That is my question.

As for human behaviour and destructiveness...that is a whole different opera.

nichi

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2006, 06:22:52 AM »
The human world is utterly violent too, e!
And we'll even kill from across the globe, not being able to see the whites of our opponents' eyes! I don't see anything noble or honorable in that.

My first realization: "I am animal... and that is wonderful!"
How else could I connect with the earth?
And then, if I don't connect with the earth, how can I connect with the beyond?

But that was me --- we all take different routes...

erik

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2006, 06:29:11 AM »
Very true - routes are very different.
There is no way I'd like to be an animal. :)

Offline tommy2

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Re: The Conversation of Death
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2006, 07:50:12 AM »
I thought you were.  I am.  You mean the beasts, right?  Like I tried to say before.  All besides us humans do not have a reason to act as they do.  They are just surviving.  We aren't surviving, are we?  t
t2f

 

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