Topic: Two Doubles?

[Nichi]

I know what you mean about the contrived, forced quality.  I think that's what we see when the tulpa is "undeveloped" or in almost an "infant" state.  One thing about tulpas is that they are not really self-sustaining unless they are nurtured in an ongoing basis.  I think it's actually pretty easy to create a tulpa (even unknowingly and unintentionally).  But as I understand it, tulpas don't last unless they are infused with the energy of their creator - which would be a more intensive process, and MIGHT result in the double becoming the "projection" of the self rather than just a transient thought form.

Not sure this is making sense - would take a lot more exploration.  It's just a fascinating subject to me, so I'm having fun processing it through this conversation. 

I think you're probably right -- they require cultivation and attention in order to develop that sentience or independence.  Like a child needs love.

Or do they, ? I made one many years ago, released him, and, contrary to my expectation, found that he was still out and about years and years later. I expected him to fizzle out through being forgotten. He was in some different world, so who knows? Perhaps I didn't create him after all, but plucked him from some pre-existing place for a short time. He did me a favor, he left.  (Don't know, but I think I would think twice about ever doing that again.)

[Quantum Shaman]

I think you're probably right -- they require cultivation and attention in order to develop that sentience or independence.  Like a child needs love.

Or do they, ? I made one many years ago, released him, and, contrary to my expectation, found that he was still out and about years and years later. I expected him to fizzle out through being forgotten. He was in some different world, so who knows? Perhaps I didn't create him after all, but plucked him from some pre-existing place for a short time. He did me a favor, he left.  (Don't know, but I think I would think twice about ever doing that again.)

Some tulpas may last longer than others depending on the strength of the intent with which they were made.  If the intent of the creator is powerful enough, the tulpa may have sufficient energy to find its own "way" long after it has served its original purpose.  Most seem to fade, but it sounds like your tulpa had been given an agenda - which tends to give them a greater sense of "being".

[tangerine dream]

Is it even possible to have two? Or even more?

Vicki,

I know I already answered this in PM, but realized it may be worth putting 'out there' for discussion.  As promised I asked for answers in dreaming to this question and as always answers come swiflty.   Not quite sure what to make of what I did receive so I'll throw it out for ponderance and possible discussion.

I had decided I would contact Don Juan or Carlos for answers to this question, but the answer came to me unexpectedly last night, before I had time to even intend to seek either one of them.

I was told, very clearly and in a strong voice that Naguals have two doubles. 

What does anyone think about this?

[Quantum Shaman]

Vicki,

I know I already answered this in PM, but realized it may be worth putting 'out there' for discussion.  As promised I asked for answers in dreaming to this question and as always answers come swiflty.   Not quite sure what to make of what I did receive so I'll throw it out for ponderance and possible discussion.

I had decided I would contact Don Juan or Carlos for answers to this question, but the answer came to me unexpectedly last night, before I had time to even intend to seek either one of them.

I was told, very clearly and in a strong voice that Naguals have two doubles. 

What does anyone think about this?

One of those areas I've never wandered into, largely because whenever I've tried, I find folks banging their head against a wall, not "getting" it.  *LOL* 

My own experience has been that Orlando is my double and I am his double.  Nagual man & nagual woman - each experiencing the other as the double.  Ergo... the nagual has two doubles, depending entirely on where the assemblage point is directed at any given moment.

There's more to it than that, but I'll leave it there for now.  There is also the "totality" of the two, which is occasionally mistaken for a third (or second, depending on perspective) double, but is actually the future-conjoined totality of the nagual man & nagual woman.

The nagual man & nagual woman do not appear to be "separate" entities as CC originally put forth, but a single entity which has "divided" much as a cell divides - which also addresses the way a seer may *see* a nagual, having 4 compartments of energy, instead of only the usual two.

Ultimately, though, the "self" is still a single entity - but may be experiencing itself from more than a single POV - ergo it would make sense that "naguals have two doubles." 

[Nichi]

For me, this question began with my dream of the Chinese woman. M said that that was my double.

Granting that he was right, I then looked at that woman and knew that I did not recognize her -- that her vibration and energy were completely different to the female I've seen, and most certainly different to the men that I've seen. The men, though differing all in appearance, have a wily, rapacious, almost smart-ass quality. The female I've met indeed has a sense of humor and mischief, but I would not call her wily or hungry in the way the men are. She has a worldly elegance to her if one looks closely, but if one settled for the first glance, one could mistake her for matronly.

The Chinese woman was dead sober and deadpan. She was very in sympatico with her horse, and I had a liking for her right away. But all I can tell you is that her essence varies greatly from the original female.

So ... either she wasn't my double, or, a new entity has been added, or discovered. I suppose one would just have to take my word for it that it was a completely different energy.

I've never entertained the notion of being a nagual myself, so I'm hard-pressed to blend that idea into my thinking yet. Still processing...

[Quantum Shaman]

For me, this question began with my dream of the Chinese woman. M said that that was my double.

With all loving respect to Michael, he may or may not be correct.  Only you would know for certain    But if he said it, he must have a good reason, so...

Granting that he was right, I then looked at that woman and knew that I did not recognize her -- that her vibration and energy were completely different to the female I've seen, and most certainly different to the men that I've seen. The men, though differing all in appearance, have a wily, rapacious, almost smart-ass quality. The female I've met indeed has a sense of humor and mischief, but I would not call her wily or hungry in the way the men are. She has a worldly elegance to her if one looks closely, but if one settled for the first glance, one could mistake her for matronly.

Might be interesting to ask what significance she holds to you now, after some time has passed since the dream.  Do you feel she was bringing a message or a lesson?  Or was she showing you something about yourself, perhaps?  Not suggesting that any of these is the answer, just asking how you *see* her now.

So ... either she wasn't my double, or, a new entity has been added, or discovered. I suppose one would just have to take my word for it that it was a completely different energy.

Oh, I completely take your word for it!  Been there myself a few times.  What's interesting to me is that Orlando has taken many different manifestations throughout just MY human lifetime, and countless OTHER manifestations throughout the space/time continuum BEYOND my  human lifetime... but when I *see* those otherselves in dreams or meditation, I usually recognize them as "him" even if they are female or a different race, creed, color, whatever.  As you say, it's the energy patterns one resonates with.  But, of course, that doesn't mean there may be patterns we don't recognize until years later.  I am currently doing some work with a guy who REFUSES to believe his double is his double even though it's been *seen* by at least 3 different seers.  I predict that one day he WILL see it for himself, but until then, it has taken on the role of an "ally".

[Nichi]

Might be interesting to ask what significance she holds to you now, after some time has passed since the dream.  Do you feel she was bringing a message or a lesson?  Or was she showing you something about yourself, perhaps?  Not suggesting that any of these is the answer, just asking how you *see* her now.

I'm completely enchanted by her quietness and her beauty. I see that she transcended the limits of her own culture, and did not hold to the proscribed immobility one encounters in that culture.  Oddly enough, the key in that dream might be the torch and the horse itself. A magical horse indeed, to have walked a tightrope.

My method is to put the question 'out there' for clarification or more information, and to be ready if spirit comes back to me in it. In other words, I tend to not force the issue. I haven't gotten  tangible info yet, but I can tell you she's still around. As are the other"s".

[Firestarter]

I think the wisest move is to not jump to conclusions if she was double or not. I think per v, if she feels the womans energy signature was 'different' esp from her own, then she probably was.

I personally had a feeling the lighting, to get across the bridge, was connected to her mother, crossing a bridge. Thats how I felt when I read it, and the chinese woman, was there as 'insurance' to see this would occur. Like one who aids travelers on the path so they can find their way. I have this feeling that v had that 'job' in past before, so the chinese woman may more be a friend or comrade than a double. Someone she knew from past who helped travelers.

Interesting theory eh? Well, makes more sense than a double, IMO.

[Nichi]

I think the wisest move is to not jump to conclusions if she was double or not. I think per v, if she feels the womans energy signature was 'different' esp from her own, then she probably was.

I personally had a feeling the lighting, to get across the bridge, was connected to her mother, crossing a bridge. Thats how I felt when I read it, and the chinese woman, was there as 'insurance' to see this would occur. Like one who aids travelers on the path so they can find their way. I have this feeling that v had that 'job' in past before, so the chinese woman may more be a friend or comrade than a double. Someone she knew from past who helped travelers.

Interesting theory eh? Well, makes more sense than a double, IMO.

You could be right .. and I haven't mentioned on the board (just to Michael privately) that my mother was a horsewoman.  It's the "Chinese" aspect that throws me when connecting it to her.

Things-Chinese have been popping up for me left and right in recent years, though.  So perhaps I have a strong Chinese ally ...

Back and forth ... perhaps I'd rather say that I met a very neat lady in my dream, heheh. Identity unknown and I'm okay with that.

[tangerine dream]

I personally had a feeling the lighting, to get across the bridge, was connected to her mother,

I felt Vicki's mother, too immediately.

 

[Firestarter]

Me too, first thought. It also had a nagual woman/beacon of light feel as well. It says vicki did the same thing in past, imo.

Personally I think it'd be a cool flowerin job

[Nichi]

Maybe there is some arcane Chinese story of a woman on her horse which symbolizes death and the crossing over.

[Firestarter]

[Firestarter]

[Nichi]

Beautiful sculptures, E!