Topic: Various Disguises and Scams

[Michael]

I don't mind the spirits of dead people, and I don't mind the spirits of the land. But it is just as hard to find a spirit that can guide you to anything really significant, as it is to find a living person that can do the same.

Spirits of the land are more interesting though, as they have wild secrets. But in the end...

[Firestarter]

I don't mind the spirits of dead people, and I don't mind the spirits of the land. But it is just as hard to find a spirit that can guide you to anything really significant, as it is to find a living person that can do the same.

Spirits of the land are more interesting though, as they have wild secrets. But in the end...

But in the end, what?

In the end they might lead you who knows where, maybe. Or, like some folks, they may get caught up in the obsession of the phenomenal, they forget what is important.

The author made a point, they're somewhat trapped spirits themselves, and we dont want to be trappped like them just the same. So mediumship isnt a good idea. One gives over control for them to come thru, there is a loss of control in that relationship, and for whatever reason those spirits thrive on that loss of control. They need it.

So I agree to some degree. One may encounter a spirit but the goal may be to coax them to 'move on' more than entertain them. Move on from whatever binds them to the earthly realm in the first place.

[Jahn]

But like the buddhist say, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Its the same deal.

Form is the manifestation of the energy from Spirit of the Nagual manifest .

To work with energy before it becomes manifest is what is called sorcery.

I know nothing about emptiness.

[Jahn]

I don't know the ultimate answer here. I've always worked with Spirit ... and by that I could mean a multiplicity of them, my own double, guides, god-essences (which are spirits, aren't they?), or the whisperings of the wind and the trees.


The spirits have no knowledge of the highest truth. They cannot help others in attaining Self-realisation. Some are foolish, deceitful and ignorant. No one should allow himself to become a medium. The mediums have lost the power of self-control. Their vital energy, life-force and intellectual powers are used by the spirits which control them. The mediums do not gain any higher divine knowledge. These spirits are not angels as the spiritualists claim. They are really earth-bound spirits. So I understand his dismay, but I don't see how it is "impossible" that a spiritualist, or spiritist, could know God. The truth is that there is more to Spirit(s) than the disembodied departed.

At any rate, is this really an either/or scenario? one or the other -- spirit or God? I think Jahn's description leads us out of the contradiction...

Do not confuse spirits from the astral plan with Spirit, or the Holy Ghost as the Christians use to call it.

To make it even more simple, God is "above", not "here" in the common sense ("our Father that are in heaven") while Spirit is down to Earth and very much "here", right before your nose, in the trees to your right etc. Therefore there are different levels of energy exchange. Both these aspects of the Creator are divine but the frequency differs significant. And in communication our energy must align to theirs, otherwise we get no connection or response.

[Firestarter]

Do not confuse spirits from the astral plan with Spirit, or the Holy Ghost as the Christians use to call it.

To make it even more simple, God is "above", not "here" in the common sense ("our Father that are in heaven") while Spirit is down to Earth and very much "here", right before your nose, in the trees to your right etc. Therefore there are different levels of energy exchange. Both these aspects of the Creator are divine but the frequency differs significant. And in communication our energy must align to theirs, otherwise we get no connection or response.

The frequency make sense. Like that frequency which may be likened to an 'angel' would be very different than a spirit bound to another lower plane. And I agree, the spirit that is holy is everywhere. That seems to be the true message that Jesus was trying to express (which is in scriptures when not interpreted wrongly), like the story of the Pentacost.

[daphne]

... I have no desire to come back. At all.

Problem with having no desire to come back at all, is that you then have desire to not come back. Tricky thing desire is; language too.

[Firestarter]

Problem with having no desire to come back at all, is that you then have desire to not come back. Tricky thing desire is; language too.

Desire is the trickiest thing about this realm. We exist in the realm of desire. Its why buddhism tries to do away with desire as a whole. However, how does one 'not' desire nirvana? Or desire to be free of suffering? So its one of those areas which has to be meditated on. Best I can say is, I have no desire to come back 'here.' Now, where that will take me is unknown, but mainly to be free of the wheel and unbound is what I want.

[Nichi]

Do not confuse spirits from the astral plan with Spirit, or the Holy Ghost as the Christians use to call it.

To make it even more simple, God is "above", not "here" in the common sense ("our Father that are in heaven") while Spirit is down to Earth and very much "here", right before your nose, in the trees to your right etc. Therefore there are different levels of energy exchange. Both these aspects of the Creator are divine but the frequency differs significant. And in communication our energy must align to theirs, otherwise we get no connection or response.

I always did things the hard way, and still have no choice but to do them this way, as my choices have borne definite cloth-cutting consequences and circumstance.

To make a long story short, and it's not so easy to articulate, here's how I did them: all things at once, to the best of my abilities and resources. There were no "guides" except my own inner voices and gut -- I did the best I could with what was presented to me. The concept I've drawn from all along is that "God" is both within and without. I Worked on the outer and the inner simultaneously -- on the higher and the lower -- on the spiritual and the physical. It was all one. The blades of grass, my beads of sweat: all "God".

I made some errors along the way, and my physical is lagging behind, and that is the crossroads I currently inhabit. I don't think I could have done things any differently than I did them, though -- I was, after all, on my own and making it up as I went along, 30-35 years ago. Any "book knowledge" came long after-the-fact.  Would I recommend my way to my daughter? God no!  But the truth will always be, that provided structure or not, "knowledge" or not, people will still do the best they can do, per their travels. I believe there's also a bit of destiny thrown therein.

[Jahn]

I always did things the hard way, and still have no choice but to do them this way, as my choices have borne definite cloth-cutting consequences and circumstance.

To make a long story short, and it's not so easy to articulate, here's how I did them: all things at once, to the best of my abilities and resources. There were no "guides" except my own inner voices and gut -- I did the best I could with what was presented to me. The concept I've drawn from all along is that "God" is both within and without. I Worked on the outer and the inner simultaneously -- on the higher and the lower -- on the spiritual and the physical. It was all one. The blades of grass, my beads of sweat: all "God".

And ...? I do not really see your conclusion. The "God" concept disturb us all, travelers of the infinite. But I know that you of all seekers has plenty of experience with the lower spirit astral. And that you, as we all, had to rely on yourself in this journey.

[Nichi]

And ...? I do not really see your conclusion.

Apropos the discussion, my point was that I could not see "God" as something "out there", but something living and breathing in my very pores -- as well as an inhabitant of that thing we think of as "heaven". .

[Firestarter]

Couldnt we also say God is the infinite?

[Nichi]

Apropos the discussion, my point was that I could not see "God" as something "out there", but something living and breathing in my very pores -- as well as an inhabitant of that thing we think of as "heaven". .

But I'm the first to admit that had I designed my educational program myself, I would have come to certain conclusions and experiences in a more orderly way. By that, I could mean a more linear way, I'm not sure. But it would have been so much easier to do things step by step --- reaching in the end -- God.

It didn't happen that way for me, though. Couldn't possibly undo it now.  It really was my nature. Even in college, I signed up for the senior-level classes before I did the introductory ones. 

[daphne]

But I'm the first to admit that had I designed my educational program myself,

I can relate to that.   

I find it hard to express to others what "S(s)pirit(s) and/or God means to me - so most often, I don't. To myself, it's not a problem as it's kind of 'sensory' like the difference between different textures or colours, or sounds. Probably is like that for most of us anyway..

[Firestarter]

Strangely, I find the idea of God on my mind 24/7. It is something which doesnt really 'leave' and i dont know if its an innate thing, or its just me and the way Im built. But I dont claim to - and definitely cannot - define God whatsoever. I think God is beyond definitions, even our ideas.

[Firestarter]

I should clarify on that. I said God I feel is beyond ideas but that there is an "Idea of God" on mind at all times. I know however, I, little me, is a faulty creature. So God is still the chili sauce on my tonal table, and Im bound to not be able to get thru to the whole of the matter. Its at least, not possible for little me to penetrate that deal. Now, is it beyond God? I highly doubt it. I figure, if Im meant to 'solve' that great mystery, then I will. In the meantime, I wade through the spiritual path like any other, not claiming to know it all cause I cannot. There is simply too much involved in Nagual land, and to explore, to be able to figure it all out.

Tho sure, I still keep trying anyway.