Author Topic: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances  (Read 281 times)

Offline Nichi

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Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« on: November 02, 2009, 08:48:38 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jedd2FiZTqM

Look what was in one of the Related Videos to Xero's video:

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qj0YwN-rbxw/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Qj0YwN-rbxw"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qj0YwN-rbxw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Qj0YwN-rbxw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj0YwN-rbxw&feature=related
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 08:56:35 PM »
<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bJfnoqzyD8g/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bJfnoqzyD8g"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/bJfnoqzyD8g&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/bJfnoqzyD8g&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJfnoqzyD8g&feature=related
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 09:02:23 PM »
<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/suLGJIkjAy4/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/suLGJIkjAy4"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/suLGJIkjAy4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/suLGJIkjAy4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suLGJIkjAy4&feature=related
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 09:11:47 PM »
<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1jbdj5KjDuM/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1jbdj5KjDuM"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/1jbdj5KjDuM&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/1jbdj5KjDuM&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jbdj5KjDuM&feature=related
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 09:23:03 PM »
Michael, were these dances supposed to create a sense of dissonance in the viewer?
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 09:52:07 PM »
Sacred Dance: The Search for Conscious Harmony
An Interview with Pauline de Dampierre
Conducted by Jacques Le Vallois



Jacques Le Vallois: There is undoubtedly a good reason why Peter Brook’s Meetings With Remarkable Men ends with a sequence of sacred dances; I felt it was one of the strongest parts of the whole film. They are unlike any dances we ordinarily see performed in public. The exactitude and precision of the gestures seem to obey a certain order; and then they don’t seem to be natural movements, but rather give the impression of being the result of a long, special training. I have to say that these dances touched my emotions in an unaccustomed way. So I’m very glad to be able to ask you some questions today, to find out more about them: what they mean and how they produce such an effect. First of all, I’d like to ask: what meaning did Gurdjieff attribute to them?

Pauline de Dampierre: In the book from which the film is taken, you will find some very important indications of that meaning, and they are surprising for us because they don’t seem to coincide either with our idea of art or with the devotional aspect of sacred dance. Describing his stay in the monastery shown in the film, Gurdjieff tells about watching the priestesses work. They had to learn a number of postures and reproduce them very exactly. He says that these postures have a meaning, and that they constitute an alphabet; so in the evening, when the priestesses dance in the great hall of the temple, the brothers can read in these postures the truths that were implanted in them several thousand years ago and which are transmitted in this way from one generation to another. He was astonished by the precision and the purity of the positions, and touched by them without yet understanding what they meant. We are in an analogous situation. And in fact, the way in which we are touched is our best approach to the whole new world that these movements can open. You only had glimpses of a few of them in the film.

Jacques Le Vallois: Yes, they were evidently incomplete. How would you describe these dances?

Pauline de Dampierre: How to describe them—perhaps there’s no better way than the answer Gurdjieff gave his pupil Ouspensky, when he told him to imagine that there was a mechanism for studying the planets which represented visually the laws governing their movements, reminding the onlooker of all he knows about the solar system. He said there was something like that in the rhythm of sacred dances; and he stated enigmatically that through these strictly defined movements and the patterns made by the dancers, certain laws are made visible and intelligible to those who know them.

And I would add that Gurdjieff made his pupils feel the significance of these dances much more by his presence and the influence it exerted than by explanations. He led his pupils to try constantly to relate their work to the central element of consciousness which was the foundation of his teaching.

Jacques Le Vallois: Is practicing these movements a way of approaching Gurdjieff’s teaching?

Pauline de Dampierre: Yes, one of the ways. You may imagine how difficult it is to sum up the essence of this teaching in a few words; let’s just say that it allows a person to feel in him or herself the existence of two poles. One pole corresponds to one’s real possibility, if one is willing to look for it—the awakening of consciousness, the development of being, presence to oneself. The other pole corresponds to the way we actually live, enslaved by our automatism, our passivity, our sleep. To try to wake up and escape from this sleep could be the direction of our whole life, at every moment; special conditions and an exceptional method of study are provided by these dances.

Jacques Le Vallois: Where do they come from, these dances—or rather “movements,” as you call them? Did Gurdjieff find them on his travels, or did he compose them himself?

Pauline de Dampierre: Both! All his travels and research were for the purpose of mastering the knowledge of the laws that govern the lives of human beings. The same laws are behind the ritual dances which he saw in many places, and it is according to them that the dances were composed. He learned that the law governing our slavery and spiritual sleep decrees that the automatism of our thoughts and feelings is closely bound up with the automatism of our movements and postures. That is the magic circle from which the human being can never escape by himself. But a series of new postures, proceeding from a real knowledge of a different order of laws, can open us to a different order within ourselves that would free us, unify us, and awaken us to the real meaning of our lives, so that our real being could act and make itself heard. This is the “science of movement” which Gurdjieff rediscovered.

Jacques Le Vallois: Seeing these dances for the first time, I had the strange impression of “jamais vu”—something I had never seen before. What I saw was a perfect, harmonious whole. Also, there seemed to be a kind of osmosis between the dancers. How much time does it take to reach this degree of perfection?

Pauline de Dampierre: I would say that it takes an entire lifetime for someone finally to reach the beginning—but the beginning of something immensely great. Anyone can begin to do them, but this approach will bring a person into a long process where he will find out that he is not prepared. The preparation must be a gradual one—a gradual increase in the difficulty of the movements and also in the inner resources which are called on. These postures often require movements that are not associated with each other, which the body’s automatism does not make naturally; and also the sequences of positions are hard to memorize. The automatism itself has to adapt itself. Before beginning to work on the sort of dances you saw, a lot of preparatory exercises are necessary which require a sustained attention.

The first requirement is for the correct, pure position; otherwise the meaning is lost.

Jacques Le Vallois: How is the idea of purity to be understood in relation to position?

Pauline de Dampierre: The position becomes something less unconscious. Schematically, let’s say that it’s a firm, balanced position, that allows the person to maintain an inner presence while making a simple gesture, followed through without tension, without any useless or involuntary expenditure of energy. One has to feel the position, have a living impression of it, for it to be right and pure. And this sensitivity does not develop just by itself. It’s necessary to have an outer attitude that corresponds to the inner one.

Jacques Le Vallois: Does that require a special attention which allows the execution of the right movements?

Pauline de Dampierre: That is a first stage.

Jacques Le Vallois: The music accompanying the dances is quite unlike anything I have known before, although certain harmonies perhaps are reminiscent of Near Eastern ones. How does this music act on the dancers?

Pauline de Dampierre: Through the harmonies—but above all, through the composition of the music. Music also can belong to different orders of laws. Its structure, its harmonies, its melody, and its rhythm must accompany not only the outward movements but also the inner impulses which develop progressively in the course of the exercise. If the quality of vibration is right, it will awaken its counter-part in the dancers; it will not carry them away nor distract them. It continually brings them back to themselves and to their need to be open.

The person who plays for the movements also has an active role. I will give you an example: you see that each of the exercises has a certain tempo which, like all musical tempos, is indicated on the score in the usual way—lento, allegretto, and so on, and sometimes by the metronome marking. But the metronome is not a sufficient guide. The same tempo that has given a peaceful, collected impression will seem at another time unbearably slow; or one which allowed a vigor and force to appear will now seem hurried. The right tempo is felt when it is in harmony with the inner state, and when the musician allows this harmony to come through his playing. Then the sound itself is transformed and it sustains the effort of the dancers.

Jacques Le Vallois: Could one say that there is a sensation which is a sort of central point of reference, corresponding with a right movement?

Pauline de Dampierre: If that were all, the movements would not have their real meaning; they would not be connected with the basic question with which this teaching confronts us. Again and again, while making the movement, the pupil tries to return to himself and to remember the direction of his search. He must have a deeper, more relaxed, more sustained attention. He feels the great power of his automatism and discovers that he is much more its prisoner than he thought, because the moment he gives in to it, he is lost. But if this attention is sustained, a new energy appears which is higher and more active, which awakens him to himself. The body relaxes completely and begins to participate in a freer way; a new intelligence accompanies the movement. At that moment, the pupil approaches the “exact doing” of which Gurdjieff spoke.

Jacques Le Vallois: Could one speak of this as a “state of grace?”

Pauline de Dampierre: A state of grace—yes. Above all, the dancer experiences that this state asks for much more than he could have imagined. The execution of the movement is a test of truth which doesn’t permit cheating: there has to be exactitude in the gesture, obedience to the rhythm, absolute order governing the rows of dancers, unanimity of movement; and at every moment he feels his inadequacy. If he imagines that he can put his trust in a state of grace, his clumsy movement reminds him that his timing is wrong. One of the big discoveries to which this work leads is that the body has to be taught. It is full of tensions, full of all the results of its way of behaving, and not ready to be animated by a state of grace.

If the struggle lasts long enough, a moment comes when this state becomes, for an instant, a reality. Then there is a real coming together: body, feeling, and thought are united. The pupil experiences a demand such as he has never felt before, the need to be nothing but an instrument; and he has never before felt so alive, so independent, so truly free.

Jacques Le Vallois: Is this very special state related with something that could be called a different energy or vibration?

Pauline de Dampierre: It is certainly related. Sometimes other expressions are used: density of matter and density of vibrations, degree of vivifyingness; but the term energy is more evocative of our own experience. Our ordinary states are connected with a certain quality of energy which has its own characteristics—for instance, a kind of heaviness. A more interiorized state is necessarily linked with a finer quality of energy that comes from a higher level; otherwise it cannot be maintained. If it is maintained, new relations are established between the functions of the body, the thought, and the feeling.

Take the example of rhythm. How can rhythm be defined? It’s not just a regular alternation of strong beats and weak ones, of tension and relaxation; it’s a pulsing of energy, an ebb and flow of energy which is not usually perceived as such. Gurdjieff gave a very simple explanation to show the importance of rhythm. He was standing, holding one arm out in front. He said:

"You see, if I extend my arm this way, I spend a certain amount of energy. If I lower it, I again spend energy, and once more if I lift it again. But if I make a continuous up and down movement, I need much less energy."

With that he showed us that a momentum, something like a sustained musical note, could be established that would support an inner state. In practice, this momentum can be of quite different qualities; it depends on the impulse to which it responds. If the rhythm is rigid and mathematical, if it is “anti-rhythmic,” no momentum is established. On the contrary, it may be disordered and out of control. But there can be a much more subtle rhythm connected with a very fine inner attention. In the moments of grace that you spoke of, there is sometimes such inner unity that one could say that the body moves with the rhythm in a conscious harmony.

Jacques Le Vallois: Does the intellect—or rather, let’s say, the mind—act as a restraint?

Pauline de Dampierre: Continually! It is much too ponderous, and it exerts a constant attraction. The attention that’s necessary doesn’t come from the mind; it has no name and no form.

Jacques Le Vallois: Is what is asked for in these “movements” the core of Gurdjieff’s teaching?

Pauline de Dampierre: As I said earlier, the movements provide conditions that are especially favorable and especially concentrated. What is central to this teaching must be lived also in all sorts of other conditions, in which the attractions of the outer world are much stronger. The experience of the movements would have no sense if it were limited to particular conditions. Its usefulness lies in revealing the possibilities and the difficulties of the whole human problem. It confronts the problem of manifestation.

Jacques Le Vallois: You lay stress on the importance of the positions and their exactitude. Can it be said that they contain a symbolic meaning?

Pauline de Dampierre: It all depends on what one is trying to understand. Analyses are not very useful. I don’t deny that each of these positions may have a definite, precise meaning, like the mudras of the Hindu repertory of gestures, which constitute a language for the transmission of certain information belonging to a body of knowledge. But it mustn’t be forgotten that the knowledge of which it speaks has always been linked with the perception of universal and human phenomena, interpenetrating and acting upon one another. These symbolic gestures were addressed to people who were steeped in this knowledge, as we are not. For example, in Buddhist art certain statues hold in one hand an oblong object which is a vase. It will be said, for instance, that this contains the Bodhisattva’s nectar of compassion; but it is also understood how this compassion is linked with the symbolism of water, the beneficent water which penetrates and fertilizes and unites. We don’t have this understanding.

Jacques Le Vallois: The intellectual explanation of the symbol doesn’t seem satisfactory. One could say the same thing about the movements—there isn’t an intellectual explanation of them.

Pauline de Dampierre: There could be one, even a very precise one; but it would be “for those who already know”—and they find it for themselves. One might say that in the symbol, two worlds begin to meet. By means of the symbol, a permeability appears between these two orders.

Jacques Le Vallois: Can it also be said that the movements are the artistic expression of a knowledge?

Pauline de Dampierre: In turn, I shall ask you a question: you saw some of these dances in the film. What did you think of them? Did you find in them a certain beauty?

Jacques Le Vallois: The prevailing impression, I would say, was an unquestionable harmony of the whole that seemed to correspond with something true and adequate. But I also felt the beauty of the gestures, and I was very much moved by the music which accompanied them.

Pauline de Dampierre: Nevertheless, while the movements were being performed, the aim was not to create a work of art. I would add that not one of the dancers ever thought of himself as an artist; not one considered himself a specialist in sacred dance. The dancers are usually people who lead active private and professional lives, and at the same time undertake this discipline in order to enrich their search.

You spoke of harmony. What conditions are necessary for this harmony to appear? First of all, there is a canon, a lawful order. This canon comes from a knowledge: that of the relation between form and substance, between the movements of the body and those of the human psyche. Its goal is the evolution of consciousness. But this canon and this knowledge are not enough. The dancer has an essential role to play; without him, the harmony will not appear. He must not submit to this canon mechanically or passively; he must search. There is a question which concerns him deeply, and he must obey consciously. The harmony and the beauty will come from that.

Jacques Le Vallois: The science you have spoken of, if I have understood, is a knowledge of cosmic laws. Would you say that this science, together with a certain open attitude of search, can create the necessary conditions for the appearance of a very high form of art?

P. de Dampierre: Gurdjieff had a very lofty idea of what he called objective art. One of its characteristics is that it has the same effect on everyone. He described a moment in his youth when he and his fellow searchers found themselves in front of a very special work of art in a desert of Central Asia. At first, they thought it was a very ancient image of a god or a demon; but little by little, they saw that a whole cosmological system could be found absolutely everywhere in it, in all its details—even in the facial features. They found that they could decipher this system, and that they became aware of the feeling that had animated the creators of the statue. They seemed to see them and to hear their voices; in any case, they felt what these people had wished to convey to them.

It’s not the ambition of those who study these movements to create a work of this sort; but in the course of their practice, sometimes a very special phenomenon occurs. It may happen that everything comes together so perfectly, with such a shared understanding, that their differences disappear. One doesn’t notice one or another person any more. It is as though one individual comes forward, raises his arm, turns his head; only one feeling moves through the whole and activates it. What occurs is an event. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that this is the manifestation of an objective law, but a prospect opens toward that horizon.

Jacques Le Vallois: It seems a very far horizon. With nothing to orient them, what chance do people today have of reaching it?

Pauline de Dampierre: First of all, I will say that this possibility opens only at moments. Perhaps people watching the movements have an impression of a whole, of harmony, of the release of an unusual force. They are touched, because it is not a professional performance that they are watching, nor a demonstration of the results of school work, but a living event that is taking place in front of them, with all its risks, its moments of rise and fall. The dancers themselves know this perfectly well; they feel the instability of everything that is happening in themselves. This is the price of the great moments they may experience.

And then there is another aspect, which applies more precisely to your question. We have spoken up till now of this very high vista which unfolds, of a possible culmination of the search. But at the same time these exercises open a prospect that is very simple and very accessible. Anyone can approach them, whatever his capacities; and from that point of view, one can say they answer to a lack in today’s world, a need for renewal. These exercises are one of the disciplines one finds today—there are still too few—which point out the necessity of associating the body with an inner, spiritual aspiration. This necessity has been forgotten; the body lives apart, and we don’t feel the inadequacy in that situation, and the limitations which it imposes on every plane of our existence. We are given no taste of the body’s dormant possibilities; we don’t know how to listen to it nor to call it. But a relation could be established—and not only during the practice of a discipline. Those who participate in the work of the movements will tell you that the understanding which has come to them carries over into other moments, in the most ordinary situations. There is no circumstance in our life which need be cut off from it, not even taking the subway or sitting at one’s desk or walking in the street.

So you see, we come back down to the level where we live.

Copyright © 1985, 2002 Pauline de Dampierre
This webpage © 2002 Gurdjieff Electronic Publishing
Featured: Spring 2002 Issue, Vol. V (1)
Revision: April 1, 2002 
http://www.gurdjieff.org/dampierre1.htm
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 10:06:36 PM by Nichi »
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Offline Michael

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 10:03:46 PM »
A good opportunity to say a few things:
These dancers - what you don't see is that they will be performing this with self-awareness... although if you look close, you just might see that.

G discovered a school which taught knowledge through dance - specific physical positions and movements actually transferred and brought through knowledge that is built into the very structure of the body.

This is a simple dance comparatively to his others, but goes so well with what is most likely G's music.

Look what was in one of the Related Videos to Xero's video:

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" loading="lazy" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qj0YwN-rbxw/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Qj0YwN-rbxw"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qj0YwN-rbxw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Qj0YwN-rbxw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj0YwN-rbxw&feature=related
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 10:11:10 PM by Nichi »

Offline Michael

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 10:26:41 PM »
The pupil experiences a demand such as he has never felt before, the need to be nothing but an instrument; and he has never before felt so alive, so independent, so truly free.

this is a great explanation of how Indian dance is intended. The idea that by conforming to a rigid form, designed specifically to actualise the divine, can bring a realisation of freedom. freedom from the self rather than freedom of the self.

it's a good find V.

Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 10:34:55 PM »
this is a great explanation of how Indian dance is intended. The idea that by conforming to a rigid form, designed specifically to actualise the divine, can bring a realisation of freedom. freedom from the self rather than freedom of the self.

That's interesting ... I wonder, then, if the same could be true for European Classical Music: one reads the music and sticks to the form. Assuming one has mastered the technique of one's instrument, it would be revealing if the same freedom from self is achieved.

I know that reading music is a very different experience than playing from the ear. Flights of fantasy are enabled. But perhaps it wouldn't be true that classical musicians are full of awareness -- or it wouldn't be necessarily true.

For the Gurdjieff troupe, no doubt awareness is involved -- is awareness involved in Indian dance?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 10:44:53 PM by Nichi »
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 10:58:08 PM »
Gurdjieff on Movements

Gurdjieff wrote sparingly about movements. The following excerpts taken from Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson, Meetings with Remarkable Men and Views from the Real World are reprinted by the kind permission of Triangle Editions, Inc.


First Talk in Berlin
November 24, 1921

You ask about the aim of the movements. To each position of the body corresponds a certain inner state and, on the other hand, to each inner state corresponds a certain posture. A man, in his life, has a certain number of habitual postures and he passes from one to another without stopping at those between.
Taking new, unaccustomed postures enables you to observe yourself inside differently from the way you usually do in ordinary conditions. This becomes especially clear when on the command “Stop!” you have to freeze at once. At this command you have to freeze not only externally but also to stop all your inner movements. Muscles that were tense must remain in the same state of tension, and the muscles that were relaxed must remain relaxed. You must make the effort to keep thoughts and feelings as they were, and at the same time to observe yourself.

For instance, you wish to become an actress. Your habitual postures are suited to acting a certain part—for instance, a maid—yet you have to act the part of a countess. A countess has quite different postures. In a good dramatic school you would be taught, say, two hundred postures. For a countess the characteristic postures are, say, postures number 14, 68, 101 and 142. If you know this, when you are on the stage you have simply to pass from one posture to another, and then however badly you may act you will be a countess all the time. But if you don’t know these postures, then even a person who has quite an untrained eye will feel that you are not a countess but a maid.

It is necessary to observe yourself differently than you do in ordinary life. It is necessary to have a different attitude, not the attitude you had till now. You know where your habitual attitudes have led you till now. There is no sense in going on as before, either for you or for me, for I have no desire to work with you if you remain as you are. You want knowledge, but what you have had until today was not knowledge. It was only mechanical collecting of information. It is knowledge not in you but outside you. It has no value. What concern is it of yours that what you know was created at one time by somebody else? You have not created it, therefore it is of small value. You say, for instance, that you know how to set type for newspapers, and you value this in yourself. But now a machine can do that. Combining is not creating.

Everyone has a limited repertoire of habitual postures, and of inner states. She is a painter and you will say, perhaps, that she has her own style. But it is not style, it is limitation. Whatever her pictures may represent, they will always be the same, whether she paints a picture of European life or of the East. I will at once recognize that she, and nobody else, has painted it. An actor who is the same in all his roles—just himself—what kind of an actor is he? Only by accident can he have a role that entirely corresponds to what he is in life.

In general, until today all knowledge has been mechanical as everything else has been mechanical. For example, I look at her with kindliness; she at once becomes kindly. If I look at her angrily, she is at once displeased—and not only with me but with her neighbor, and this neighbor with someone else, and so it goes on. She is angry because I have looked at her crossly. She is angry mechanically. But to become angry of her own free will, she cannot. She is a slave to the attitudes of others. And it would not be so bad if all these others were always living beings, but she is also a slave to all things. Any object is stronger than she. It is continuous slavery. Your functions are not yours, but you yourself are the function of what goes on in you.

To new things one must learn to have new attitudes. You see, now everybody is listening in his own way, but a way corresponding to his inner posture. For example, “Starosta” listens with his mind, and you with your feeling; and if all of you were asked to repeat, everyone would repeat in his own way in accordance with his inner state of the moment. One hour passes, someone tells something unpleasant to “Starosta,” while you are given a mathematical problem to solve. “Starosta” will repeat what he heard here colored by his feeling, and you will do it in a logical form.

And all this is because only one center is working—for instance, either mind or feeling. Yet you must learn to listen in a new way. The knowledge you have had up to today is the knowledge of one center—knowledge without understanding. Are there many things you know and at the same time understand? For instance, you know what electricity is, but do you understand it as clearly as you understand that twice two makes four? The latter you understand so clearly that no one can prove to you the contrary; but with electricity it is different. Today it is explained to you in one way—you believe it. Tomorrow you will be given a different explanation—you will also believe that. But understanding is perception not by one but by not less than two centers. There exists a more complete perception, but for the moment it is enough if you make one center control the other. If one center perceives and the other approves the perception, agrees with it or rejects it, this is understanding. If an argument between centers fails to produce a definite result, it will be half-understanding. Half-understanding is also no good. It is necessary that everything you listen to here, everything you talk about among yourselves elsewhere, should be said or listened to not with one center but with two. Otherwise there will be no right result either for me or for you. For you it will be as before, a mere accumulation of new information.

Views from the Real World, pp. 167–170

http://www.gurdjieff.org/G.5-1.htm
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
~Hsin Hsin Ming

Offline Michael

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 11:01:01 PM »
good question V, but not an easy answer.

Gurdjieff would definitely say no. The forms of his dances were crucial - not just the adherence to their perfection. He would say European Classical dance was designed for a different purpose (mostly by a Frenchman as I understand, in the courts). This is the same as the Indian's would say - their dance movements were specifically designed to actualise divinity in a very conscious way.

But Gurdjieff would go much further. Both Indian and European Classical dances are intended to be perfected technically so that the dancer can then shift awareness to 'something else' - the content of the dance's intent.

That is not what Gurdjieff sought. He did not want the dancer to master the movements technically. No matter how good the dancer got, he would make the movements even more difficult - the whole point was to never achieve automated perfection of technique. The dancer had to maintain a peak of concentration on all three components - action, thought and feeling - never for a moment being able to master one sufficiently in order to concentrate on another.

This is very different to all forms of art we are familiar with. It is about maintaining unfamiliarity and difficulty. It is actually a form of intense not-doing to it's maximum, possible, bearable degree. An extreme state.

Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 11:03:43 PM »
This is very different to all forms of art we are familiar with. It is about maintaining unfamiliarity and difficulty. It is actually a form of intense not-doing to it's maximum, possible, bearable degree. An extreme state.

That explains the dissonance I felt while I watched, thanks!
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 11:09:43 PM »
Assuming one has mastered the technique of one's instrument, it would be revealing if the same freedom from self is achieved.

The reason I mentioned the mastery there is that most attention could definitely be given to actually getting/stumbling through a piece, which often requires technique not possible to the average musician.

But I think upon review that my comparison to Western Classical Music is not a good one. I was connected to that idea via the adherence-to-the-form. But per your explanation, it's all something else entirely.
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 11:39:46 PM »
You can't just jump to the end - we have to 'learn', to go through the processes. But actually it is possible to see that the end is quite simple.

Gurdjieff and don Juan both discovered specific movements that held power in themselves. And these movements were created in times past with specific intent. That is important. And the power gained is also important, as it assists in the final part.

But G and DJ were both radicals. Especially DJ - he stepped aside from his tradition to say that the real goal was to create a dissonance which separated the worlds. Movements of power and knowledge - these go on forever, and they do not bring freedom. Freedom comes when we stand between two complete views of the world.

The point is that it is not-doing - constantly seeking new ways of acting and being, which finally breaks down the calcification of our vehicle.

Gurdjieff was putting together a pinnacle of many factors, to shift the person into a state of being they never realised existed. It was applying not-doing on a highly concentrated and many-faceted level. Really extraordinarily creative.

Offline Nichi

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Re: Gurdjieff Sacred Dances
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2009, 12:37:31 AM »
You can't just jump to the end - we have to 'learn', to go through the processes. But actually it is possible to see that the end is quite simple.

Hmmm, after we are adults, I think one can start at the end: it would depend upon an individual's capacity to suspend one's disbelief. It would depend on how well someone can already "Stop!" as Gurdjieff would say. Some can do that via the experience gained from the course of their lives -- trained automatically in a tolerance for ambiguity, trained to duck and bolt forward and run back, trained to change the script and the sheet of music. Such a person would not impugn the linear "steps" but instead see the wisdom and beauty in them. (And ... get a lot more out of them.)

I remember when I had my stint with hypnosis, speaking of separating the centers and listening with more than one of them. In the episode in which I "caught" the hypnotist, he led me into an induction by ostensibly talking about what he learned at a conference he attended on self-hypnosis. That was the premise of the discussion, anyway. Rather than tell me the topics discussed and the deduction of his observation/experience, he began by leading me into an induction.

Wanting to be polite, I listened, and clearly recall how I was processing it at the time. I said to myself, "Ah, so he is not going to teach this material deductively, like a good teacher would. A good teacher would tell us the conclusion/principle (or theory) first, and then break it down into details, be they inductive pieces of data or experiences. He is going to give it all inductively.

"So, I will listen with two ears: one so that I can glean the underlying principle, and the other so that I can remember these steps that he is now echoing."

As it turned out, I had already been induced before, unbeknownst to myself, and this two-earedness of mine was a by-product of the fact that he had already induced trance. He had already instilled the separation, between unconscious and conscious. And if you want to look at it another way, he had already created a dissonance indeed in me between the deductive and the inductive. To me, despite whatever bitterness I still have regarding those dark years, this is no way to teach. If one gives the principle first, then the learning of the inductive pieces, the particulars, the seemingly-elementary steps, have far more meaning. Perhaps it's an individual matter, I don't know. After all, there are different learning styles and proclivities.

I've just figured out why I've resisted Gurdjieff, anyway. I'm setting that aside, though, as I have begun to read him.

(Pardon me for what might seem to be a digression. I was examining the dissonance, and why I was having a lot of red flags and alarms going off. It's my "stuff", and I didn't miss the point that G is talking about 3, not 2. I suspect, though, that I will probably always have a resistance to him. I spent years trying to undo the separation within myself -- years. It doesn't mean that I can't learn from his writings, at any rate. Gone, gone, gone the days, decades ago, where I can approach a learning situation with blind faith. Call it damage if you will, but know also that I can compensate for it. Meanwhile, I look at whatever study I might make of Gurdjieff as a way to understand you, Michael -- and it's certainly a worthwhile endeavor therein.)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 01:11:47 AM by Nichi »
Not here, not there, but everywhere - always right before your eyes.
~Hsin Hsin Ming

 

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