Restless Soma

Birth (the spinning force, public) => New Beginnings => Topic started by: Michael on June 09, 2007, 01:31:42 PM

Title: Change
Post by: Michael on June 09, 2007, 01:31:42 PM
It goes like this. At first we say. “No one’s gonna make me change!” Then the world rolls over us and we find ourselves changed. We think, “OK, not bad, but that’s me now, and that all.” Then we wake up and discover change is actually fun. We become different again and again. Then we get serious about it and seek change. Last we are hooked, and no long see it as a chore, but push ourselves way beyond our limits and grab every opportunity, for the sheer delight in becoming a completely different person in as many ways as possible.

Why the resistance to change? Simple. Other people are always trying to make us fit to their frame - make us more like themselves. They don’t care who we really are, and all they want is for us to validate their world view. I recall my mother working hard and secretly to get me to cut my hair, wear shoes that were ‘smart’ and didn’t have my toes poking out, shave off my beard, marry a socialite so she could see me in the social pages of the newspapers. I don’t blame her - she just wanted what she thought was best for me.

We take pride in ‘being who we are’, and pride in not allowing others to foist their attitudes on us. And there is nothing wrong in that... for the average man and woman in the street.

But once we begin on the ‘path’, we discover our stubborn pride is based on a few wrong assumptions.

The first and most formidable assumption is that we ‘know who we are’. We assume that our inner self-image, our identity, is the real us. Forgetting conveniently that that identity has been ruthlessly forged by the attitudes of our parents, guardians and culture from the day we were conceived... without ever asking our opinion! We pop up into the early twenties, almost complete replicas of our parents, and its all down hill from there.

Of course we see our inner self as different, but on careful examination, we find all our attitudes and behaviours and aspirations are those of the world we were brought up in. The older we get the more like our parents we become. OK, with a little spirit we may change a few things here and there, but the underlying framework is always the one dished out to us in our formative years.

So to strop around claiming self-ownership is a complete sham - we are absolute and indelible victims of those who coached us throughout the timelessness of our childhood.

The next assumption is that we see change as a threat, instead of a fabulous opportunity. Why? Buggered if I know. We are made that way because we have no adventurous spirit, and are basically frightened of the world and what it might do to us.

Then comes the assumption that we ‘can’ know who we are. That identity is here or there, now or later. We believe identity is necessary, an absolute thing, and you are headed for the loony bin if you are uncertain about self-identity.

Lastly we assume that we will be cut off from all our security and happiness if we begin to change inside - we intuitively know that identity is the link to our world, our friends, family, work. That our relationships and activities are the real owners of our identity, and they won’t like it if we try to change. And we assume that social world is more important than wandering around in no-mans-land looking for ‘who we really are’! Heaven forbid, haven’t we scoffed at those sort of idiots?

Well, forget all that. Once you start this path, all that goes out the window.

The first injunction of the path, is to become cloud-like. Leave all defining pressures, and lose our self-image. To leave our friends, and join the strangers... to even become a stranger to ourselves.

The rule is simple. Our deepest core is mystery.

For us, the issue is not whether we will be changed into the image of another, but how we can break our image moorings. The task requires all our strength, intelligence and imagination. From this point onwards the question is only, how far can we go?

The change we really seek, is known as Transformation. That means a deep and comprehensive change in nature form and appearance. Naturally we don’t seek downward spiralling change - change for the worse. My image for that, is that we stand on a downward moving escalator - if we stand still, we descend. To even hold the same position we have to climb, and climbing means effort. To ascend, we really need a superhuman effort.

But at first any change is of value, as we need to break the fixations of identity. Once that is accomplished, the adventure-true begins!

A little story to finish.
I used to be a beer drinking, motor bike riding, football playing, external physical world person. That was me - it was the only me I knew. Then I went into the military, and became a military person. That was different. Although I still lived out doors mostly. Then I discovered music, and became an audiophile, which was a part of me that I had not realised before - a more subtle trance like identity.

The big change happened when I travelled overseas, and even then I clung tenaciously to my familiar self. Until I cashed in my London/Sydney flight ticket, and travelled overland on a pittance. Slowly as I crossed the continent, through Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, I lost my old self, until I slid numb across the Punjab boarder into India. By then I was gone, and every returning trip, its self-image stripping talons have ripped me apart till I look with bewilderment upon each of my current personas.

Nothing is real anymore, but everything is bubbling like a good dinner. Since then, I have changed personas often, and have now become a signed up member of the International Identity Adventurers Club. A branch of the original Asiatic Shamanic Institute, better known as the ASI. We are a dedicated cohort of deep-bliss seekers, who are willing to do anything to open the floor beneath, and let the winds from the endless dark universe blow on our bones. A very frightening and consummational experience.

For me the crack came in another culture. That is why I extol the virtues of travel to very different cultures, because it has worked for our club members since the days of Melchizedek.

And after all this, all my effort, I see you shake your head and say, “that’s fine for you, but I’m different ... I know who and what I am, and I am abundantly happy with being ‘me’.”

Myself and my other club members look at you and smile.

such is the universe, and such it will always.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Definitive Journey on June 09, 2007, 02:00:53 PM
You've been spying on me, haven't you??

<<<Chuckles>>>

No need for an autobiography...you've just written it  ;D

Zamurito
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 11, 2007, 02:20:24 PM
It goes like this. At first we say. “No one’s gonna make me change!” Then the world rolls over us and we find ourselves changed. We think, “OK, not bad, but that’s me now, and that all.” Then we wake up and discover change is actually fun. We become different again and again. Then we get serious about it and seek change. Last we are hooked, and no long see it as a chore, but push ourselves way beyond our limits and grab every opportunity, for the sheer delight in becoming a completely different person in as many ways as possible.

Hi Michael,

How would you relate this to the post about shaping ourselves that I highlighted from what Florinda wrote?

Of course there is no obligation to relate the 2 passages at all - but I myself am interested. I am also interested in postponing change, as in feeling it, seeing the ease of its possibility yet holding off.

Florinda:

What does freedom cost?

   Freedom will cost you the mask you have on. The mask that feels so comfortable and is so hard to shed off, not because it fits so well but because you have been wearing it for so long.

Do you know what freedom is?

   Freedom is the total absence of concern about yourself, and the best way to quit being concerned about yourself is to be concerned about others. It is time for you to begin to shape your new mask. The mask that cannot have anyone's imprint but your own. It has to be carved in solitude. Otherwise it wont fit properly. Otherwise there will always be times when the mask will feel too tight, too loose, too hot, too cold...
To choose the Sorcerers' world it not just a matter of saying you have. You have to act in that world. In your case you have to dream, Have you dreamt-awake since your return? ..... Then you haven't made your decision yet, you are not carving your new mask. You are not dreaming your other self.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 11, 2007, 02:33:15 PM


The first and most formidable assumption is that we ‘know who we are’.


Everything that I mentally connect up to my name, my given 'Christian' name is really a myth. Everything in my mental capacity to relate to this name and my behaviors that I deem as 'my nature' according to this personality are also a myth. I would go as far to say that I am simply wearing a mask - > Mostly, the mask was made for me, but now I uphold that mask in my personal belief as 'me'.

I know from my own pattern that simply re-projecting this 'me' or even getting drunk or high never changes 1 small fragment.

For true change, I agree with Florinda in that we must create a new mask. We know the new mask is also a mask, but it is the one we have made, and it has been made in a seperate fire. But those are just words.

We assume that our inner self-image, our identity, is the real us. Forgetting conveniently that that identity has been ruthlessly forged by the attitudes of our parents, guardians and culture from the day we were conceived... without ever asking our opinion! We pop up into the early twenties, almost complete replicas of our parents, and its all down hill from there.



I agree, even if we have had a split family from death of one parent, the splitting up of the 2 or other large changing factors; we still altimately hold the key principles of the agreed society and follow its patterns as if we are bouys afloat to a dictatory current.

Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 11, 2007, 02:46:13 PM


Why the resistance to change?

People don't change when an exterior persona recomends it - that is natural, one would rather die on the spot than change for any outside authority. This is where one of the delusions is created, in the assumption that the one hinting towards it is suggesting it for themself, rather than to be of guidance.

The resistance sets in and then as you put it - The world rolls over us -

In Talking about change, as observed over these years of internet forum use, we can witness that people like to take the 'discussing' element from change and talk the discussion in a way that simply expresses to the viewer that they are talking themselves out of needing to change.

We talk ourselves in and out of everything.

I've done a change recently by moving to a town in the UK that is otherwise unknown to me without knowing people here. Being honest, it doesn't change anything. The society still thrives on the same things and the character 'Daniel' that was cultivated for me still has as many excuses to exist as it would do in any other part of England.

In fact, simply by talking about the character we make him real.

 ;)

This is a good subject Michael, and I hope it is not overlooked like many things are. But what is a hope.

Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 11, 2007, 02:48:16 PM
Can anyone talk about change in a direct way, or can it only be talked around like the Shaping Ourselves post was?


Can our mask dessolve in the mirror as we gaze at ourselves to become nothing?


Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 11, 2007, 02:52:30 PM


The next assumption is that we see change as a threat, instead of a fabulous opportunity. Why? Buggered if I know. We are made that way because we have no adventurous spirit, and are basically frightened of the world and what it might do to us.


Interesting.

I don't see it that we are afraid to become nothing, but more that we are very scared to loose the 'something' that we are/ have.

We can re-create innumerous new 'somethings' but what is the real purpose in forging anything new, change, a momentary purpose?

Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 11, 2007, 02:59:57 PM


Lastly we assume that we will be cut off from all our security and happiness if we begin to change inside - we intuitively know that identity is the link to our world, our friends, family, work. That our relationships and activities are the real owners of our identity, and they won’t like it if we try to change. And we assume that social world is more important than wandering around in no-mans-land looking for ‘who we really are’! Heaven forbid, haven’t we scoffed at those sort of idiots?

Well, forget all that. Once you start this path, all that goes out the window.

The first injunction of the path, is to become cloud-like. Leave all defining pressures, and lose our self-image. To leave our friends, and join the strangers... to even become a stranger to ourselves.

The rule is simple. Our deepest core is mystery.

Defining and change:

Now there's a subject.

 ;)

We need to let go of our definitions in order to change, yet our innate social order is to accumulate; be that accumulating objects or knowledge in information.

To connect and relate we must define what we intend to say, commune or respond with - and so to adopt a new form - > that new being the 1st breath of fire from the wheel of change - > we embrase form...

Like picking up a branch from a certain tree we have always known and loved, we let it go - we become nothing or we become branchless. Then we pick up a new branch from a different tree, a different forest even.

Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 11, 2007, 03:04:59 PM


The change we really seek, is known as Transformation.


(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:_y-uFOmY5B9fvM:http://johnbokma.com/mexit/2006/12/17/green-butterfly-resting-on-my-finger.jpg)
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 11, 2007, 03:17:43 PM


The change we really seek, is known as Transformation. That means a deep and comprehensive change in nature form and appearance. Naturally we don’t seek downward spiralling change - change for the worse. My image for that, is that we stand on a downward moving escalator - if we stand still, we descend. To even hold the same position we have to climb, and climbing means effort. To ascend, we really need a superhuman effort.


I had to take a moment there and pause with my cup of tea, pondering on that. I knew I'd felt that but was letting it become a real mental consciousness.

Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 11, 2007, 03:26:33 PM
you are not carving your new mask - You are not dreaming your other self.

For me, these 2 small sentences are echoing in a rhythmic loop around me





In dreaming, my intention is to go wake up that other self that is like a nothing coffined in darkness... Poetically we seek or find feelings that remind us, but poetry too is not enough.

Title: Re: Change
Post by: zenandnow on June 11, 2007, 06:52:06 PM
the issue is not whether we will be changed into the image of another, but how we can break our image moorings.
heh, but not all change is change of persona. 

maybe for some it might be to break their need to have images of others.  that is if you wanted to take it from the other way around.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: zenandnow on June 11, 2007, 06:54:29 PM
In fact, simply by talking about the character we make him real.
who shall we make real today?
Title: Re: Change
Post by: zenandnow on June 11, 2007, 07:01:17 PM
Can anyone talk about change in a direct way, or can it only be talked around like the Shaping Ourselves post was?

Can our mask dessolve in the mirror as we gaze at ourselves to become nothing?
when i walk in the woods, i feel myself deminishing.  it wasn't that i was fading, it was what i thought of myself that fades to the background.  i lose myself in the trees and the sunlight and wind playing through them.  i lose myself to the sounds. 

there are no phones ringing, reminding me what i am suppose to be.  there is just this observer like thing walking through the woods, awareness of a rock or creature fills my being.  i am no more. 

yet, i am somewhere.  i am not gone for good.  eventually i will return to my car, begin to remember the self i am suppose to be.  the self i want to be.  yet always i carry with me the nonexistant self in the woods.

<----i am nothing----<<<<


<-----i am not even the wind----<<<<
Title: Re: Change
Post by: mayflow on June 11, 2007, 07:07:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
Quote from: Michael on June 09, 2007, 01:31:42 PM
the issue is not whether we will be changed into the image of another, but how we can break our image moorings.
heh, but not all change is change of persona. 

maybe for some it might be to break their need to have images of others.  that is if you wanted to take it from the other way around.

Sometimes, it seems to me that Michael seems to want to make his "own" tonal issues "ours"  :-\  - same for Daniel to me.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: zenandnow on June 11, 2007, 07:21:05 PM
Sometimes, it seems to me that Michael seems to want to make his "own" tonal issues "ours"  :-\  - same for Daniel to me.
sometimes that may be due to what he sees when he looks out upon this world.  seeing what he is working on in others instead of separating it out.  thats ok.  we didnt really expect him to be faultless now did we?  michael's fine.  you are fine.  ok?

 
Title: Re: Change
Post by: mayflow on June 11, 2007, 07:28:59 PM
sometimes that may be due to what he sees when he looks out upon this world.  seeing what he is working on in others instead of separating it out.  thats ok.  we didnt really expect him to be faultless now did we?  michael's fine.  you are fine.  ok?

 

Sure, I know I am fine. One of the ways I know that is that I don't go around pretending to be a whole bunch of things or beings, that I am not.
You are doing alright too?
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Michael on June 11, 2007, 08:25:28 PM
Daniel, interesting thoughts, but really the point of my post was that I and some others long ago accepted the change issue, and then began the long journey of how to effect change, real or imagined. Thus much inner and outer thinking revolves around the complex and exhaustive tools and insights of the change process. However in a place like this forum, it has often been forgotten that there are many who still stand outside the door of change, wondering why they should enter, not how to change but why.

Thus we find ourselves in discussions of change techniques only to find someone arguing the position that no one needs to change - that we are already where we need to be etc. This throws the whole discussion because everyone feel a need to keep walking all the way back to the front door to talk with someone standing outside debating the very reason to even enter the process at all.

So I thought it best to for now put to one side the much more interesting ideas about how to change, and what kind of changes, and so on, and address more directly the whole issue of that initial choice, of whether to subject ourselves to change - to try in a limited way (I know there is much more that could be said) to disentangle some of the issues underlying such an initial choice - the fact that DJ said to do it is not sufficient for many, they want more mind food about it before their parental brain will give the imprimatur to what their inner child is busting to try out.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Michael on June 11, 2007, 08:32:17 PM
I don't go around pretending to be a whole bunch of things or beings, that I am not.

Actually Mayflow, pretending to be something we are not is one of the best techniques of change. I know you are referring to when people are putting on a false front, but that is social construct. Once we get serious about the path, we find ourselves doing a lot of things we would previously have scorned, because now we have a real purpose, not just a social purpose.

How can you be so sure you know what you are not?

Here is a little personal mantra for you - repeat over and over "Pretend, pretend, pretend..." (after all that is what everyone is doing anyway... haven't you noticed? Now you can do it with a clear conscience)
Title: Re: Change
Post by: mayflow on June 12, 2007, 01:57:13 AM
All things are of impermanance and change by their very nature of beingness. Change is the spice and the variety and the beauty and the ever-oscillating and ever-wondressness, and newness of life at any and each and every moment. Otherwise, we would bore ourselves to death.

And yet! Each sentient creature has a "core-central" so to speak.

Eha!! "Corecentral!"  ;D  (I LOVE it when new ideas come to me!) I revolve around you and you revolve around me, but neither of us loses our core-central, so we each retain our freedom of will, and in this way we each give meaning to ourselves and to one-another! ;D

Title: Re: Change
Post by: mayflow on June 12, 2007, 02:27:58 AM
All things are of impermanance and change by their very nature of beingness. Change is the spice and the variety and the beauty and the ever-oscillating and ever-wondressness, and newness of life at any and each and every moment. Otherwise, we would bore ourselves to death.

And yet! Each sentient creature has a "core-central" so to speak.

Eha!! "Corecentral!"  ;D  (I LOVE it when new ideas come to me!) I revolve around you and you revolve around me, but neither of us loses our core-central, so we each retain our freedom of will, and in this way we each give meaning to ourselves and to one-another! ;D



Now, to take this further, I do have the power to assign any meanings I wish to assign to you and that will vary according to my wishes of the moment at the time, and you have do have the ability to move your Ap around (if you want to use that vernacular), and I will change my perceptions and meaning assignments around accordingly.

 Everything, everyone
 is always in the dance.
 It's a sort of ever-lasting
multicultural, never ending romance!  ;)
Title: Re: Change
Post by: mayflow on June 12, 2007, 02:48:13 AM
ps, I did it!! I stole from myself!! Take that, Shantideva!! :D

http://introspectives.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=163295#163295

ps What do y'all think of my definitions of AP over there?

---------------

Let's dance!  ;D
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 12, 2007, 02:55:51 AM
One thing I would say though is that you never know when the old mask can come in handy. My mask of being a English Man, quite knowledgeable and well mannered can be used quite well in certain situations or places. However, when the mask is removed...

Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 12, 2007, 03:06:14 AM
stand

 wondering why they should enter, not how to change but why.

Thus we find ourselves in discussions of change techniques only to find someone arguing the position that no one needs to change - that we are already where we need to be etc. This throws the whole discussion because everyone feel a need to keep walking all the way back to the front door to talk with someone standing outside debating the very reason to even enter the process at all.


There will always be a reason to hold onto what we deem we are...

Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 12, 2007, 03:40:22 AM
I know that with my 2 trips to Colombia and my India visit I did when young that it makes us away of what we cluster up in behaviour as 'us', and how entrenched into us it is. No toilet paper! Good grief, and is that just a hole in the ground!

There are loads of identities I haven't lost.

I have had many discussions with River (Forest) about this and we have called it 'presiousness'. That is that what we deem we are, we are precious with it, it is almost fragile, brittle, we don't want to drop it from fear of it shattering. For me it is not about *issues* (and I couldn't be less interested or concerned about peoples issues if I tried) because they are mostly made up things > it is more about re-gaining the stalkers edge we had as children, being daring with it. I mean that as in the scenery around us, it becomes too solid, too real, too serious. When young, we try on many costumes, but when older, we have mainly 1 or 2.

We have to nestle into our predilection, we have to hunt ourselves, if we dare! And in knowing that what we aree doing right now is 'shaping ourselves' we know that we are if not simply talking to ourselves here, we are at least talking ourselves outward.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 12, 2007, 03:47:24 AM


So I thought it best to for now put to one side the much more interesting ideas about how to change, and what kind of changes, and so on, and address more directly the whole issue of that initial choice, of whether to subject ourselves to change -

Maybe some don't actually have a choice to change, maybe some go from birth to death without ever really choosing at all.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: goggle-eyed dandelion on June 12, 2007, 04:03:54 AM
ps What do y'all think of my definitions of AP over there?

---------------

Let's dance!  ;D

...does the definition matter at all...
...it is all about moving the AP again and again, not theorising it...
...the definition really matters so little as long as the change is effected...
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Moth Steps on June 12, 2007, 04:07:23 AM
How would you define change

How would you define transformation

How would you define transmutation

How would you define evolution
Title: Re: Change
Post by: John on June 12, 2007, 11:55:44 AM


An increased alignment with the Nagual and the Soul.

  .~.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: zenandnow on June 14, 2007, 04:48:16 AM
Sure, I know I am fine. One of the ways I know that is that I don't go around pretending to be a whole bunch of things or beings, that I am not.
You are doing alright too?
sometimes you pretend not to care when you do.  i think that qualifies as pretending to be something you are not. 

i am fine as i am.  thanks for asking.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: zenandnow on June 14, 2007, 04:59:18 AM
Thus we find ourselves in discussions of change techniques only to find someone arguing the position that no one needs to change - that we are already where we need to be etc. This throws the whole discussion because everyone feel a need to keep walking all the way back to the front door to talk with someone standing outside debating the very reason to even enter the process at all.
change is good.  but michael it can also be that change is learning to accept ourselves as we are. 

when you come at the world with the stance that you are not good enough as you are, not free or whatever, you walk one way.  some here have been doing that walk for many years and the change they seek is a new way to walk.  one where we are free of self persecution. 

rather than hear only disagreement with your post, try looking farther.  far enough to see the few who do "argue" are actually putting effort to change how they used to feel they were not ok.  may is sensitive to it.  it rubs a raw spot.  so he defends, reminding himself that he really is ok.  can you not see that there was a time when he did not think he was ok?  can you not see that his defense is necessary to push him from his old self defeating habits and ways?   
Title: Re: Change
Post by: goggle-eyed dandelion on June 14, 2007, 06:18:57 AM
change is good.  but michael it can also be that change is learning to accept ourselves as we are.

That's not the issue here. Accepting oneself as one is is an important part of process of change, is its beginning. Then one knows where one stands. Change is not about reaching the 'being-OK-stage', but about becoming something we even don't know we are.
Title: Re: Change
Post by: zenandnow on June 15, 2007, 03:27:39 PM
That's not the issue here. Accepting oneself as one is is an important part of process of change, is its beginning. Then one knows where one stands. Change is not about reaching the 'being-OK-stage', but about becoming something we even don't know we are.
it is a beginning, we both agree.  may becomes many things he wasn't before in the safety of anonimity. so is he just beginning or somewhere near the end?
Title: Re: Change
Post by: Nichi on July 26, 2011, 03:34:24 PM
~*~