Topic: Change

[zenandnow]

Sometimes, it seems to me that Michael seems to want to make his "own" tonal issues "ours"    - same for Daniel to me.

sometimes that may be due to what he sees when he looks out upon this world.  seeing what he is working on in others instead of separating it out.  thats ok.  we didnt really expect him to be faultless now did we?  michael's fine.  you are fine.  ok?

 

[mayflow]

sometimes that may be due to what he sees when he looks out upon this world.  seeing what he is working on in others instead of separating it out.  thats ok.  we didnt really expect him to be faultless now did we?  michael's fine.  you are fine.  ok?

 

Sure, I know I am fine. One of the ways I know that is that I don't go around pretending to be a whole bunch of things or beings, that I am not.
You are doing alright too?

[Michael]

Daniel, interesting thoughts, but really the point of my post was that I and some others long ago accepted the change issue, and then began the long journey of how to effect change, real or imagined. Thus much inner and outer thinking revolves around the complex and exhaustive tools and insights of the change process. However in a place like this forum, it has often been forgotten that there are many who still stand outside the door of change, wondering why they should enter, not how to change but why.

Thus we find ourselves in discussions of change techniques only to find someone arguing the position that no one needs to change - that we are already where we need to be etc. This throws the whole discussion because everyone feel a need to keep walking all the way back to the front door to talk with someone standing outside debating the very reason to even enter the process at all.

So I thought it best to for now put to one side the much more interesting ideas about how to change, and what kind of changes, and so on, and address more directly the whole issue of that initial choice, of whether to subject ourselves to change - to try in a limited way (I know there is much more that could be said) to disentangle some of the issues underlying such an initial choice - the fact that DJ said to do it is not sufficient for many, they want more mind food about it before their parental brain will give the imprimatur to what their inner child is busting to try out.

[Michael]

I don't go around pretending to be a whole bunch of things or beings, that I am not.

Actually Mayflow, pretending to be something we are not is one of the best techniques of change. I know you are referring to when people are putting on a false front, but that is social construct. Once we get serious about the path, we find ourselves doing a lot of things we would previously have scorned, because now we have a real purpose, not just a social purpose.

How can you be so sure you know what you are not?

Here is a little personal mantra for you - repeat over and over "Pretend, pretend, pretend..." (after all that is what everyone is doing anyway... haven't you noticed? Now you can do it with a clear conscience)

[mayflow]

All things are of impermanance and change by their very nature of beingness. Change is the spice and the variety and the beauty and the ever-oscillating and ever-wondressness, and newness of life at any and each and every moment. Otherwise, we would bore ourselves to death.

And yet! Each sentient creature has a "core-central" so to speak.

Eha!! "Corecentral!"    (I LOVE it when new ideas come to me!) I revolve around you and you revolve around me, but neither of us loses our core-central, so we each retain our freedom of will, and in this way we each give meaning to ourselves and to one-another!

[mayflow]

All things are of impermanance and change by their very nature of beingness. Change is the spice and the variety and the beauty and the ever-oscillating and ever-wondressness, and newness of life at any and each and every moment. Otherwise, we would bore ourselves to death.

And yet! Each sentient creature has a "core-central" so to speak.

Eha!! "Corecentral!"    (I LOVE it when new ideas come to me!) I revolve around you and you revolve around me, but neither of us loses our core-central, so we each retain our freedom of will, and in this way we each give meaning to ourselves and to one-another!

Now, to take this further, I do have the power to assign any meanings I wish to assign to you and that will vary according to my wishes of the moment at the time, and you have do have the ability to move your Ap around (if you want to use that vernacular), and I will change my perceptions and meaning assignments around accordingly.

 Everything, everyone
 is always in the dance.
 It's a sort of ever-lasting
multicultural, never ending romance! 

[mayflow]

ps, I did it!! I stole from myself!! Take that, Shantideva!!

http://introspectives.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=163295#163295

ps What do y'all think of my definitions of AP over there?

---------------

Let's dance! 

[Moth Steps]

One thing I would say though is that you never know when the old mask can come in handy. My mask of being a English Man, quite knowledgeable and well mannered can be used quite well in certain situations or places. However, when the mask is removed...

[Moth Steps]

stand

 wondering why they should enter, not how to change but why.

Thus we find ourselves in discussions of change techniques only to find someone arguing the position that no one needs to change - that we are already where we need to be etc. This throws the whole discussion because everyone feel a need to keep walking all the way back to the front door to talk with someone standing outside debating the very reason to even enter the process at all.

There will always be a reason to hold onto what we deem we are...

[Moth Steps]

I know that with my 2 trips to Colombia and my India visit I did when young that it makes us away of what we cluster up in behaviour as 'us', and how entrenched into us it is. No toilet paper! Good grief, and is that just a hole in the ground!

There are loads of identities I haven't lost.

I have had many discussions with River (Forest) about this and we have called it 'presiousness'. That is that what we deem we are, we are precious with it, it is almost fragile, brittle, we don't want to drop it from fear of it shattering. For me it is not about *issues* (and I couldn't be less interested or concerned about peoples issues if I tried) because they are mostly made up things > it is more about re-gaining the stalkers edge we had as children, being daring with it. I mean that as in the scenery around us, it becomes too solid, too real, too serious. When young, we try on many costumes, but when older, we have mainly 1 or 2.

We have to nestle into our predilection, we have to hunt ourselves, if we dare! And in knowing that what we aree doing right now is 'shaping ourselves' we know that we are if not simply talking to ourselves here, we are at least talking ourselves outward.

[Moth Steps]

So I thought it best to for now put to one side the much more interesting ideas about how to change, and what kind of changes, and so on, and address more directly the whole issue of that initial choice, of whether to subject ourselves to change -

Maybe some don't actually have a choice to change, maybe some go from birth to death without ever really choosing at all.

[goggle-eyed dandelion]

ps What do y'all think of my definitions of AP over there?

---------------

Let's dance! 

...does the definition matter at all...
...it is all about moving the AP again and again, not theorising it...
...the definition really matters so little as long as the change is effected...

[Moth Steps]

How would you define change

How would you define transformation

How would you define transmutation

How would you define evolution

[John]

An increased alignment with the Nagual and the Soul.

  .~.

[zenandnow]

Sure, I know I am fine. One of the ways I know that is that I don't go around pretending to be a whole bunch of things or beings, that I am not.
You are doing alright too?

sometimes you pretend not to care when you do.  i think that qualifies as pretending to be something you are not. 

i am fine as i am.  thanks for asking.