Restless Soma
Death (the tumbling force, public) => The Cave => Topic started by: Endless~Knot on September 20, 2009, 03:47:02 PM
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At my job I find the majority of people who call in do not listen very well. It is a repeat problem which as I take note, and im reiterating this as Ive said it before, listening, really listening, is a common problem.
The only thing I can think on this is that the human mind is lazy. It is also 'many minds' like in that movie, The Last Samurai (when the young boy tells Tom Cruise why he cant fight good, "Many minds" going on in his head). People have not one mind, but many minds. Is it a wonder some go schizophrenic? So their attention is in many different directions, to the point they cannot conduct the simplest task, be focused on one thing in the moment, because they are preoccupied with many other 'things' going on in their head.
This is something I actively work at freeing myself of since the herd does this regularly, walking around mindlessly like this. An observance I have noticed, my job even confirms. I ask a simple thing, to 'not include the zeros,' roughly 30 percent read the zeros off anyway. A simple one set of instruction I will give, and thirty percent will read off zeros anyway. Or when I ask certain things for verification, their minds will brainfart in other different directions. It amazes me. I could see if this involved something complex, a serious examination entailing sixty questions, but I ask only a few, and always, throughout my day, are folks who do not 'hear' what I am asking.
We were given ears for many reasons, and one of them was to listen and listen well. Not have our minds convoluted with so much shit we cannot handle the simplest tasks when someone is speaking to us. For that moment, someone is addressing us directly, it is not only polite, but wise, to 'tune out' other mental interference, and focus all attention on the other to what they are saying. Or else we cannot get the gist of what another is saying, at all. Or out of the prison of mind that it likes to keep ahold of us via its tyranny.
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I notice that, too at my job. I deal with hundreds of people in a day as I am sure you do as well.
I find a lot of times people already think they know what you are saying, so they have their minds made up. So they really aren't talking with you at all, but kind of having conversations with themselves based on ideas and beliefs they have in their own minds. Kinda weird, that. But I guess people are weird.
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I notice that, too at my job. I deal with hundreds of people in a day as I am sure you do as well.
I find a lot of times people already think they know what you are saying, so they have their minds made up. So they really aren't talking with you at all, but kind of having conversations with themselves based on ideas and beliefs they have in their own minds. Kinda weird, that. But I guess people are weird.
Cool avatar breezey :)
It does seem to be that way that folks dont know what they're saying. My mind even trails a bit in frustration myself when asking for info to be verified. I have to 'repeat myself' and ask the same question... again. Something which is a pet peeve of mine. I have been stalking myself on this, to try to have more patience with this quality of human nature. And also examining, do I do this myself possibly and its why it bothers me? I dont think I do, but if I do, Ill surely make sure to work on it!
But its a matter of focus. I typically do put my attention to what the other is saying, even if it includes body language, 'what are they saying to me?' Course, harder on a phone or online, but still, whatever medium I try to do my best. Its important to really listen, its also a way to develop awareness ourself, cause if we're not listening, we're not aware. If we're listening, then we're aware.
So it spooks me a bit folks, esp so many, who dont listen. Cause I know if they're not listening, they're lacking in awareness.
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Why don't you chicks choose avatars of old wrinkled women?
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Why don't you chicks choose avatars of old wrinkled women?
Cuz then we'd look like you ;)
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LOL You asked for that one, Michael!
Seriously, breezey and I arent old wrinkled women just yet. Our time is coming, and maybe then we will, but for now we'll just enjoy being wrinkle free while it lasts.
I havent even found a gray hair yet, much to my surprise. Im sure in this decade ill get one, but so far, no gray. No wrinkles either, but I dont have dry skin so that could be why too.
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The pursuit of youthful beauty, the reliance on youthful beauty, the complete acceptance of society's values: this is the downfall of women.
This is why women change after menopause, because they have become so embedded into the youth cult, that it takes decades for them to accept it when it has gone, and they hate it - they find excuses like having to do too much cleaning, too much care for wayward kids and old parents, too much of whatever - underneath it's all about being disenfranchised from their youth.
I say, begin now: embrace the beauty of old age before you find yourself invisible!
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The pursuit of youthful beauty, the reliance on youthful beauty, the complete acceptance of society's values: this is the downfall of women.
This is why women change after menopause, because they have become so embedded into the youth cult, that it takes decades for them to accept it when it has gone, and they hate it - they find excuses like having to do too much cleaning, too much care for wayward kids and old parents, too much of whatever - underneath it's all about being disenfranchised from their youth.
I say, begin now: embrace the beauty of old age before you find yourself invisible!
I already do. I dont care about society and about the mirror much. Im not afraid to age, its a natural process. Sure society is hung up on 'youth' and a lot of that comes from the media; however, that doesnt stir me much. Im more concerned with aging gracefully. Trying to take care of myself so that I can do that.
You really begin to think about those things when you turn forty. You have to. Im no longer construed as 'young' anymore, at least to myself.
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This is for Mi-chael: :D
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa249/illpic/GreatDay/d32.jpg)
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Beautiful Older Women
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t227/firecrackling/anandamayima.jpg)
Ananda Ma
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t227/firecrackling/MiriamMakeba.jpg)
Miriam Makeba
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t227/firecrackling/GrandmaMoses.jpg)
Grandma Moses
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t227/firecrackling/georgiaokeefe.jpg)
Georgia OKeefe
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t227/firecrackling/maxinehongkingston.jpg)
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t227/firecrackling/maxinehongkingston1.jpg)
Maxine Hong Kingston
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t227/firecrackling/paula.jpg)
Paula Deen
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So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words, but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it. --Jiddu Krishnamurti
No wonder listening is an undervalued art. Research shows that we speak at a rate of about 125 words per minute, yet we have the capacity to listen to approximately 400 words per minute. So what are we doing with that extra space in our minds when someone else is talking? Are we really listening?
I have a friend who used to multi-task when we spoke on the phone. He would respond appropriately to what I was saying, but I could hear him shuffling papers or trying to quietly order food at the deli (yes, this actually happened). Even though he was following the conversation, I felt bereft as I was sharing my innermost thoughts and feelings. Fortunately, our friendship was more important than his to-do list, and now I happily get his full attention.
Listening is essential to fulfilling relationships. If you are experiencing challenging interactions or you want your connections to deepen, reflect on how you can improve your listening skills. The benefits? Consider the following:
People will feel be more drawn to you; they will like you more.
You will learn something new.
You will solve problems more effectively.
You will experience less loneliness and frustration.
You will feel happier and more relaxed.
Learn to listen well, and watch all your relationships thrive. Here's how.
Pay attention
Since our brains have the capacity to process 275 more words per minute than are actually spoken, we tend to fill up the void with extraneous thoughts. Notice how when someone is speaking, you are partially listening, while simultaneously planning the rest of your day, replaying a meeting that just occurred, or deciding what you will say next. Paying attention is the cardinal rule for good listening. Hear the words, and let their meaning in. If your mind wanders, simply re-focus your attention on the conversation.
Be receptive
If you show up with an agenda, you are not going to be available to fully hear what the other person is saying. There is no problem with having goals for an interaction, but let them go while the other person is speaking so you can hear what is being expressed. Balance your need for a given outcome with your desire to sustain a harmonious relationship.
Check your understanding
Make sure you can repeat what you just heard, and if you can't, ask for clarification. You might be surprised at how much you are missing. Most people are. When you think you've gotten it, you might say, “So what you are saying is....” to verify your understanding.
Be an explorer
Explorers are open and curious. They are inquisitive, without knowing what they will find. So what to do with all of that excess brain power? Focus on the speaker. Notice body language, tone of voice, and rate of speaking. Then look beneath the words to see what feelings and needs are being communicated. You never know what you might find.
Show interest
If you find yourself bored and distracted, reconnect with the interaction. Maintain eye contact, uncross your arms, and ask questions that take the conversation deeper. Find out what really matters to the person you are speaking with.
Be patient
As much as you may be tempted, don't speak over someone who is talking. When you feel the urge to step in, take a breath, let your agenda go, and continue to listen. If you need to move the conversation along, do so politely, as in, “Excuse me, I'm so sorry for interrupting, but ….” Likewise, be careful not to jump to conclusions or assume you know what hasn't yet been said. These are all signs that your inner explorer has fallen asleep. Revitalize your experience by paying attention to what is happening in the moment.
Get out of a rut
Have you ever had the same problematic conversation with someone over and over? Bring a fresh perspective to the relationship by redoubling your efforts to listen. Let go of your need to be right or your ideas about what the other person should be saying or doing, and hear them as if for the first time. This moves you from contraction and limit to possibility and potential simply by listening.
Effective listening develops empathy, which is the capacity for a deep understanding of another's experience. And isn't that what it takes for a relationship to thrive? It's as simple as paying attention.
http://www.dailygood.org/more.php?n=3872#
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Thats a good find Breeze. Im still trying to come to terms with my annoyance on this issue at work. I have a stress ball with a happy face on it, I tend to squeeze a lot when taking calls, and I squeeze it more when people dont listen. Im trying to face why this irritates me so much. I find myself needing to deep breathe more as I recognize how little people 'tune in' to listen. You call in, you want info, but you dont get your focus on the other who is asking questions you need to provide an answer to.
Maybe in a past life I used to have to repeat myself alot, lol. I dont know what it is, but you should see the stress ball and how mushy it is :)
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Why don't you chicks choose avatars of old wrinkled women?
What an interesting question! The old crony - the wise lady - this is to aspired to, isn't it? The witch beyond the ego, the mythological spirit-being freed from the personal ego! I don't know Michael but I think you may unto something cool here. People seem to actually fear bodily aging and learning rather than revering it, now don't they? ps Fear is for fools.
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What an interesting question! The old crony - the wise lady - this is to aspired to, isn't it? The witch beyond the ego, the mythological spirit-being freed from the personal ego! I don't know Michael but I think you may unto something cool here. People seem to actually fear bodily aging and learning rather than revering it, now don't they? ps Fear is for fools.
No fear here. I chose my avatar because it was breezy, like I was feelin when I chose the handle. :0
But yes, wise old crone, I do aspire to be one day.
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No fear here. I chose my avatar because it was breezy, like I was feelin when I chose the handle. :0
But yes, wise old crone, I do aspire to be one day.
What you aspire to when you have conquered fear is the Beauty of you!
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Another good topic, listening.
Let's put another spin on this: How well do we 'listen' when on the discussion boards?
K
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Some points I think worth re-visiting.
So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words, but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it. --Jiddu Krishnamurti
Be receptive
If you show up with an agenda, you are not going to be available to fully hear what the other person is saying. There is no problem with having goals for an interaction, but let them go while the other person is speaking so you can hear what is being expressed. Balance your need for a given outcome with your desire to sustain a harmonious relationship.
Check your understanding[/u]
Make sure you can repeat what you just heard, and if you can't, ask for clarification. You might be surprised at how much you are missing. Most people are. When you think you've gotten it, you might say, “So what you are saying is....” to verify your understanding.
Be patient
As much as you may be tempted, don't speak over someone who is talking. When you feel the urge to step in, take a breath, let your agenda go, and continue to listen. If you need to move the conversation along, do so politely, as in, “Excuse me, I'm so sorry for interrupting, but ….” Likewise, be careful not to jump to conclusions or assume you know what hasn't yet been said. These are all signs that your inner explorer has fallen asleep. Revitalize your experience by paying attention to what is happening in the moment.
Effective listening develops empathy, which is the capacity for a deep understanding of another's experience. And isn't that what it takes for a relationship to thrive? It's as simple as paying attention.
http://www.dailygood.org/more.php?n=3872#
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I have mixed feeling about 'listening'.
Obviously not listening in a conversation is ridiculous, despite how often it occurs. So let's dispense with that extreme, except to say always check that is what you are doing.
There is a Toltec code that the task in a conversation is to listen - give full attention to listening and understanding the other person.
But I find this boring when people do it to me. I have friends who listen and focus on what I am saying completely, asking questions for further details etc. I find it creepy, as at the end all that has happened is that I have offered something and they have offered nothing. Not the kind of person I trust with the info I am speaking - I tend to feel they have nothing going on inside and are only interested in being entertained for awhile.
What I personally prefer in a conversation is like a tennis match - the ball is passed back and forth, each person adding further vitality, insight or impetus to the thread of conversation. I enjoy the bouncing of an idea back and forth with creative and unexpected twists. This happens very rarely.
However sometimes in a conversation someone will tell me something personal, and after they have given their first phase, it sparks something similar in my experience, so following the tennis principle I then offer my story of similar kind - showing I am alright to speak to about such matters and that I understand the complexities and dilemmas of such situations.
But then the other person goes quiet, and I get the feeling they didn't want a tennis conversation, they just wanted to let out some built up emotional energy, and it would have been better if I had drawn them out further. Another part of me isn't happy playing councillor with others. People get themselves tied up in such emotional knots, that I enjoy sitting back some distance and looking humorously or with wonder at the bizarre nature of life. Others I sense are not so keen on that - they want to draw me down into their quagmire, and when I don't offer them the stage completely, they stuff their problem back under their jumper.
Nonetheless, one of the best techniques to use is to say, "What you are saying is .... [demonstrating you listened], however/and I have another side to tell on this."
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Either that, or to live in a cave... I think that would be preferable.
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I have mixed feeling about 'listening'.
Obviously not listening in a conversation is ridiculous, despite how often it occurs. So let's dispense with that extreme, except to say always check that is what you are doing.
There is a Toltec code that the task in a conversation is to listen - give full attention to listening and understanding the other person.
But I find this boring when people do it to me. I have friends who listen and focus on what I am saying completely, asking questions for further details etc. I find it creepy, as at the end all that has happened is that I have offered something and they have offered nothing. Not the kind of person I trust with the info I am speaking - I tend to feel they have nothing going on inside and are only interested in being entertained for awhile.
What I personally prefer in a conversation is like a tennis match - the ball is passed back and forth, each person adding further vitality, insight or impetus to the thread of conversation. I enjoy the bouncing of an idea back and forth with creative and unexpected twists. This happens very rarely.
However sometimes in a conversation someone will tell me something personal, and after they have given their first phase, it sparks something similar in my experience, so following the tennis principle I then offer my story of similar kind - showing I am alright to speak to about such matters and that I understand the complexities and dilemmas of such situations.
But then the other person goes quiet, and I get the feeling they didn't want a tennis conversation, they just wanted to let out some built up emotional energy, and it would have been better if I had drawn them out further. Another part of me isn't happy playing councillor with others. People get themselves tied up in such emotional knots, that I enjoy sitting back some distance and looking humorously or with wonder at the bizarre nature of life. Others I sense are not so keen on that - they want to draw me down into their quagmire, and when I don't offer them the stage completely, they stuff their problem back under their jumper.
Nonetheless, one of the best techniques to use is to say, "What you are saying is .... [demonstrating you listened], however/and I have another side to tell on this."
Rhetorical questions - not seeking "additional info or details" from you ...
What is the difference between conversation and communication?
And then, what is the difference between communication and communion?
Why do we speak at all? And does everything we communicate come in the form of speech?
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Why do we speak at all?
I tend to see it like why do we read books - for enjoyment or for information.
On very rare occasions we speak for information, otherwise it purely enjoyment. And it's a mistake to mistake one for the other.
But the better question is why does a biku speak?
And does everything we communicate come in the form of speech?
Rhetorically speaking, no.
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What about listening vs listening? Like seeing vs seeing.
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M:
"There is a Toltec code that the task in a conversation is to listen - give full attention to listening and understanding the other person.
But I find this boring when people do it to me. I have friends who listen and focus on what I am saying completely, asking questions for further details etc. I find it creepy, as at the end all that has happened is that I have offered something and they have offered nothing. Not the kind of person I trust with the info I am speaking - I tend to feel they have nothing going on inside and are only interested in being entertained for awhile".
My question: Have you done this to others?
I see this method you mention above in a slightly different light...As in when I'm speaking or conversing or communicating with someone much better versed in something than I am. An example would be a conversation with Dr. Kenny on a medical malady that's I'm having trouble with. I know little on it, he knows much more; thus, at the current level of my knowledge and awareness it is going to be a bit of a lop-sided conversation, almost a lecture.
As to your last line, the 'straw dogs' who are seeking entertainment...is this bad to entertain them? Perhaps it's a bit of an opportunity for both parties to work on the conversational skills, not just communicating skills. This may be labeled, 'Stalking.'
M:
"What I personally prefer in a conversation is like a tennis match - the ball is passed back and forth, each person adding further vitality, insight or impetus to the thread of conversation. I enjoy the bouncing of an idea back and forth with creative and unexpected twists. This happens very rarely.”
Really? I’ve found this occurs [conversations like a tennis match] when a couple traits come in to play. First, finding an open minded audience, and second, which is much more difficult, is being open to this style of conversation ourselves. We obviously only have control over ourselves, so if we ‘guide’ the conversation, a little give and take, such as giving the one who wants to ‘lecture’ their due, then, propose open ended questions and answers, the ‘tennis match’ conversation can occur. Personally, I’ve found this much less complex in person, verbal communication, than on discussion boards. Especially on discussion boards that anything to do with Religion, Spirituality, etc., etc. As to your final line below, very, very few want to ‘give the other their due,’ first, then propose an alternative perspective. I cannot recall the last time I saw a reply such as, “Yes, I see your point, what do you think about this?”
M:
“However sometimes in a conversation someone will tell me something personal, and after they have given their first phase, it sparks something similar in my experience, so following the tennis principle I then offer my story of similar kind - showing I am alright to speak to about such matters and that I understand the complexities and dilemmas of such situations.
But then the other person goes quiet, and I get the feeling they didn't want a tennis conversation, they just wanted to let out some built up emotional energy, and it would have been better if I had drawn them out further.”
Agreed. As with the comments above and as you know, many factors can go into this. What’s the relationship we have with the individual we’re communicating with? What’s our role within that relationship? Where do we draw the line in the ‘drawing out’ of another or ourselves? Etc., etc….
M:
“Another part of me isn't happy playing councilor with others. People get themselves tied up in such emotional knots, that I enjoy sitting back some distance and looking humorously or with wonder at the bizarre nature of life. Others I sense are not so keen on that - they want to draw me down into their quagmire, and when I don't offer them the stage completely, they stuff their problem back under their jumper.”
Sure, yet that above sounds like judgment to me, which is Ok, as long as we’re aware of it and accept it as such. As Lori told me, “It’s easy to sit back and judge…” Also as mentioned above, many questions can arise from this: Who am I and what is my role in this conversation? What’s the point? Where is this leading us? Why are we even having this conversation? How are we going about it?
The tricky part I’ve found is to quickly answer all or most of these questions the moment the conversation begins, or, if we know we have a pre-determined meeting as such, prepare our state of mind for the conversation. Raise our level of awareness to quickly see who or what issue we’re dealing with, (hence getting to the REAL issue) then address appropriately based on all the questions and answers we received, above.
I think ‘getting to the real issue’ of the conversation is important. Most tend to run off on a wild goose chase, on some minor detail that tickles their fancy, and forget about the issue at hand. This responsibility, imho, is on both parties of the conversation.
M:
“Nonetheless, one of the best techniques to use is to say, "What you are saying is .... [Demonstrating you listened], however/and I have another side to tell on this."”
Agreed. This is where I was going with my initial reply to this thread; more importantly, how well can we do this on discussion boards with the written word?
What I’m truly getting at, is that are we taking the time to figure out the intent of those we converse or communicate with? Are they just looking for a reaction? Are they looking for further information? Are they looking for a debate or a conversation? Do we ourselves, or another person, even versed or understand the topic at hand? Are we looking to ‘school’ or lecture them on the topic? How are we replying to them? What are we looking to invoke in them with our reply?
K
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All valid points Kris - I don't have any problems there. There are numerous factors to any conversation
What about listening vs listening? Like seeing vs seeing.
Taking this point, it is obvious, to us anyway, that we should be sensing constantly what is happening beneath the conversation. Feeling into the others involved - most do this but not consciously.
When I say the tennis method happens rarely for me, I mean there are very few people I know who are able to follow a thread creatively. Many can follow the ball for a short time, but typically it either winds down into mundanity, gets redirected to hobby-horse areas, or shuts down abruptly with the other people looking blankly at me in bewilderment.
With the few I know with whom the process kicks along lively, it is obvious they have a good supply of not only active thought resources, but are able to find unexpected and delightful associations which escalate the thread enjoyably. You never know where you might end up. This is because their double has open gateways in the throat and mind.
Another judgemental response I have, is when some boring twat tries to corner me in a conversation, and after a few short moments, I realise I have no interest in listening to them whatsoever. If I can't escape, I just take over and give them an exposure to a series of wild ideas. If I have to coexist with dumballs then at least I should be allowed to have some fun. This often happens at those parties which I periodically attend because it's healthy to maintain an active social world. Unfortunately I tire quickly from such masturbatory experiences and end up going to the van for a sleep.
Actually Julie and I are famous for our conversations - we often find it hard to pull others out of their timidity and superficiality at dinner parties. We have one good selection, of a friend and another couple. Oh boy! what great evenings we have when we restrict it to the five of us. The conversation bubbles along like a fast train through all kinds of terrain, with emotionality and intelligence. That's a rare evening, but highly memorable.
Ultimately though, what I miss most are those who can quickly plum to the most serious and critical issues of life - why we came here and why we came here. These are the internal dialogues I pursue mostly myself, but rarely find anyone else remotely interested.
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If I can't escape, I just take over and give them an exposure to a series of wild ideas.
Yes, this is a good one.
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Ultimately though, what I miss most are those who can quickly plum to the most serious and critical issues of life - why we came here and why we came here. These are the internal dialogues I pursue mostly myself, but rarely find anyone else remotely interested.
Let us plum! Let us plum!
Kris
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I evoke a response.
Takes what it takes at times....
Stop being a priss and come and play. Ellen is in 'classic mode' and it's worth the show.
K
I will respond to you here, because this is my Forum just as much as it is yours. You can swear at me, call me names and insult me till you are blue in the face Kris it doesn't change what you are.
It doesn't change a thing.
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Another good topic, listening.
Let's put another spin on this: How well do we 'listen' when on the discussion boards?
K
Also, since you seem a bit confused about this, check page one of this thread. Ellen and I were speaking and who jumped in? Oh yeah, that was you. (not the other way around like you seem to think.) Not that there is anything wrong with joining a discussion already in progress, as some may suggest.
So to go along with listening, also very important is seeing, with your eyes and good remembering. You know, all those things we teach to toddlers, still important as an adult. Perhaps even more so. Yes, I think even more!
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Yes Kris you listen when you want to but you have selective hearing. Don't feel bad, we all do. When people are boring we tune them out. We don't pay attention.
I am selective when I'm bored. I tune out. I never tune out my boyfriend however cause he's interesting haha.
One thing about forums you have to read. I find if I get bored my eyes begin to glaze over, I begin skimming posts, and I scroll a lot. I do this quite a bit lol. Especially long posts on martial arts (Haha Kris). I love a good read that has some meat to it. I laughed out loud when I read Michaels post on listening and he found it creepy when people listen to him. That was cute. :D
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One thing about forums you have to read. I find if I get bored my eyes begin to glaze over, I begin skimming posts, and I scroll a lot. I do this quite a bit lol. Especially long posts on martial arts (Haha Kris). I love a good read that has some meat to it. I laughed out loud when I read Michaels post on listening and he found it creepy when people listen to him. That was cute. :D
Yeah, I do that, too. But sometimes I also feel like I've read it all a thousand times before, ya know?
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Hey El,
Please note that the 'long posts on martial arts' has nothing to do with martial arts. It's awareness training. I do realize there's a lot of words though....
K
Yes Kris you listen when you want to but you have selective hearing. Don't feel bad, we all do. When people are boring we tune them out. We don't pay attention.
I am selective when I'm bored. I tune out. I never tune out my boyfriend however cause he's interesting haha.
One thing about forums you have to read. I find if I get bored my eyes begin to glaze over, I begin skimming posts, and I scroll a lot. I do this quite a bit lol. Especially long posts on martial arts (Haha Kris). I love a good read that has some meat to it. I laughed out loud when I read Michaels post on listening and he found it creepy when people listen to him. That was cute. :D