Topic: Art of Dying

[goggle-eyed dandelion]

Art of Dying
George Harrison

There'll come a time when all of us must leave here
Then nothing sister Mary can do
Will keep me here with you
As nothing in this life that I've been trying
Could equal or surpass the art of dying
Do you believe me?

There'll come a time when all your hopes are fading
When things that seemed so very plain
Become an awful pain
Searching for the truth among the lying
And answered when you've learned the art of dying

But you're still with me
But if you want it
Then you must find it
But when you have it
There'll be no need for it

There'll come a time when most of us return here
Brought back by our desire to be
A perfect entity
Living through a million years of crying
Until you've realized the art of dying
Do you believe me?

[mayflow]

This is nice, but I slightly disagree that nothing in life can equal the art of dying. In fact, I submit that everything in how we live our lives will determine our art of dying, and that it all inter-relates.

I do agree, however that nothing we do in life surpasses the art of dying.

[goggle-eyed dandelion]

What equals art of dying?

[zenandnow]

What equals art of dying?

ah, the art of living?

[goggle-eyed dandelion]

ah, the art of living?

Is living as inevitable as dying? Subjecting oneself to change is dying as well. The physical death is the ultimate purifcation of oneself from the delusions and stupidities carried out in life.

[zenandnow]

Is living as inevitable as dying? Subjecting oneself to change is dying as well. The physical death is the ultimate purifcation of oneself from the delusions and stupidities carried out in life.

you asked what equals it.  there is no art of dying if one isn't first practicing the art of living.  but your right, no one has to live fully.

[mayflow]

Is living as inevitable as dying? Subjecting oneself to change is dying as well. The physical death is the ultimate purifcation of oneself from the delusions and stupidities carried out in life.

If reincarnation or rebirth is; then yes living is as inevitable as dying. Subjecting oneself to change is not an option, for change is inevitable, although the direction of change would maybe be quite alterable.. The last statement about death being ultimate purification again holds not true if rebirth or reincarnation come about. Also, what is wrong with working on ridding oneself of delusions and stupidities whilst alive?

[goggle-eyed dandelion]

Yes, rebirth, Samsara, endless cycle. It is all good and sound at mental level.

What I'm concerned, however, is not the big theory, but the death moving towards me and what and how could I accomplish in this very life, in time I have been given.

Really, what is the importance of Buddhist truths or anything else in the face of imminent death?

[goggle-eyed dandelion]

you asked what equals it.  there is no art of dying if one isn't first practicing the art of living.  but your right, no one has to live fully.

Change is also the art of dying. Life is a long process of dying ending with departure. How about that?

In such context 'being-OK-and-living-fully' sounds a bit hollow, don't you agree?

[zenandnow]

Change is also the art of dying. Life is a long process of dying ending with departure. How about that?

the art of change is the art of dying along with the art of embracing the unknown.  dying involves looking back.  embracing the unknown involves looking forward.  which way are you looking at it erik?

In such context 'being-OK-and-living-fully' sounds a bit hollow, don't you agree?

that could take us some time to explore erik.  i don't know why things sound the way they do to you.  why is it that you find mayflow trying to be ok with himself a "hollow" task? 

my guess is that you find living fully "hollow" because you have made assumptions about the author...am i right?  if we erase those assumptions as if they were never there and proceed...to suggest that fully living is a hollow task indicates that you havent devoted yourself to the effort yet.  iow it doesnt seem that you know what it entails. 

accepting change (ergo death) iow accepting the loss of something you once had is part of having it.  iow dealing with the death is not actually walking through to the next part.  embracing life (ergo living fully) is walking into the next part.  dealing with your loss is important.  but so too is moving on.  neither task is "hollow."

tell me erik, since you have taken this position, what is it about living fully that seems so "hollow" to you?  do you not love life?  have you never seen something so beautiful that you wept in joy?  have you ever tasted food so marvelous that you had to stop and fully enjoy the moment it was in your mouth?  do you think that you have enough moments to spare that you can waste opportunities to express the love within you?  is life not profound?  because erik, life to me is so full that your comment about living it in its fullness being "hollow" just doesnt track.   

if you dont have a clue what it is you are giving up, how can you call it "the art of dying"?  are not both necessary?

[goggle-eyed dandelion]

the art of change is the art of dying along with the art of embracing the unknown.  dying involves looking back.  embracing the unknown involves looking forward.  which way are you looking at it erik?

Death means looking forward to me.

why is it that you find mayflow trying to be ok with himself a "hollow" task?

Notice, when I want to say something to mayflow, I say it to him. Speaking about somebody present in third person is common on many forums where squabbling substitutes the discussion. Think about it for a while, Zenandnow, and decide if you want to continue this line of reasoning.

tell me erik, since you have taken this position, what is it about living fully that seems so "hollow" to you?  do you not love life?  have you never seen something so beautiful that you wept in joy?  have you ever tasted food so marvelous that you had to stop and fully enjoy the moment it was in your mouth?  do you think that you have enough moments to spare that you can waste opportunities to express the love within you?  is life not profound?  because erik, life to me is so full that your comment about living it in its fullness being "hollow" just doesnt track.   

Yes, I have experienced various beautiful things and continue to experience. They won't last. Part of my beingness knows it perfectly well and I have played shifting my mind in an instant from utter enjoying of something to full realisation of the minuteness of it. Behind the joy there's awareness of minuteness of it. Don't make mistake lining them up in linear fashion - first we live, then we die. We are dying while living. The last breath is passing the gate at the end of the road that has always taken us only in one direction.

[daphne]

The last breath is passing the gate at the end of the road that has always taken us only in one direction.

[goggle-eyed dandelion]

Yet there's sadness and lack of sadness as well.
We treasure beauty in its minuteness, but there is no other way for beauty to be.

[daphne]

Yet there's sadness and lack of sadness as well.
We treasure beauty in its minuteness, but there is no other way for beauty to be.

Therein lies the mystery of our being. 

[daphne]

The Dharma-Kāya of thine own mind thou shalt see; and seeing That, thou shalt have seen the All -- The Vision Infinite, the Round of Death and Birth and the State of Freedom.' -- Milarepa.

Jetsün Kahbum, xii (Lāma Kazi Dawa-Samdup's Translation.)