Topic: When we love somebody...

[Red one]

I can't recall the timing of it, to tell you the truth. They may have all been afterward -- one may come before. Is it significant?

As for cutting the crap ... I'm all for it. When will you start the process?

Timing is CRUCIAL because you LIE.

I didn't really come here to discuss. Four different people either PM'ed or emailed asking about this thread.

Why can't you be honest about your own actions for once?

[daphne]

Is 'love' an absolute?

[Red one]

Is 'love' an absolute?

Good question!
Assuming that we are talking about the 'unconditional love', I would say that it might well be an aspect of an 'absolute'. Something like the Intent is - it is a power in its own right that spans the known. I'd reckon that unconditional love is something quite similar.

[littlefeather]

Good question!
Assuming that we are talking about the 'unconditional love', I would say that it might well be an aspect of an 'absolute'. Something like the Intent is - it is a power in its own right that spans the known. I'd reckon that unconditional love is something quite similar.

Erik
fwiw
Nowhere did jaharkta give a specific time that she got PMs regarding your posts on this thread.  And yet you blatantly accuse her of lying. 

Is it so unbelievable that folks would think your posts are rude, obnoxious or unnecessary?  Do you honestly believe you are acting fairly and impeccably and not from a place of self importance, ego and emotional wounding?



"Dont try to find the answer, when there aint no question here
Brother let your heart be wounded and give no mercy to your fear."
Ed Kowalczyk of
Live

[Red one]

It has been interesting to watch these defences of the 'usual love'. 'How dare you to mock such a beautiful thing?!' 'How dare you to laugh at love?!' 'You cannot love yourself!' 'You are afraid of love!'

Wonderful, and it is likely to continue forever.

Why such outbursts? Did anybody feel touched personally? Did anybody feel threatened by the suggestion that there is something 'beyond' the usual definition of love? Is it threatening to know that what one has thought to be the ultimate achievement and satisfaction in this world and human life may turn out to be something not that 'high'?

It probably is. Maybe even as threatening as were Don Juan's teachings to CC's world view.

We are taught to 'hold on to our dear ones', we are taught to cherish these moments in life and organise lives so as to maximize these moments. What if there is something beyond? Something unimaginably beautiful, but something that excludes orientation on holding on to people? Even more provocative proposal: what if we all decided to move to it? Leave our known world behind and try to reach beyond known?

What would become of this cozy place of ours if all people decided to leave these attachments and desires and angers behind and to move on? Each standing tall and moving fearlessly into unknown, strong in their solitude and powerful in their unbending intent? What sort of world we would live in? Clearly, there would be few if any wars - they would become simply unnecessary and useless. There would be little fear - who would be there to feel fear? And there would be amazing beauty and harmony...

...nice dreaming certainly, but that is unlikely to happen. As usual, there would be single untamed travelers who feel chained and choking in the daily world of ours. There would be some Schools of Direct Knowledge...unless mankind is discarded before by nature as too destructive and too fixated on their fears. 2012 will correspond to midnight in 26,000 year cycle. It will be the darkest time in 13,000 years.

Who dares? Who is willing to go beyond?
(purely rhetorical questions - answer not required

On we trod...

[littlefeather]

Besides, there are many known cases of violence where the victim has been literally beaten into loving the abuser

Perhaps this is a cold thread now, but this sentence has been haunting me.  Is it possible you have your facts mixed up?  You could be referring to  Stockholm syndrome, which is the  sympathizing and/or romantic attraction to an abuser.    In that case, this is a result of brainwashing, a psychological illness and not 'love'.  Read more here

You can not force a person to love you.  Certainly beating someone into loving you is highly unlikely. One who would think it possible is definitely delusional, and possibly dangerous.
 

[Red one]

"Love"

Sometimes in long term relationships, the abusers have had plenty of time to "work" on their victims and the victims come to believe that they "need" their abusers for many of life's daily necessities. Over the long term, the abusers have conditioned the victims to stay with him or her. However, many victims mistake this "need" for the belief that they 'love' the abusers. See Domestic Violence Dynamics for more on this.

http://abuse.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_do_abuse_victims_stay

Good article:
http://counsellingresource.com/quizzes/stockholm/

[littlefeather]

Is that Love?

Being conditioned to believe they need the other.  Doesn't sound like love to me.

Anyway, my point was in response to you saying a person can be abused (you used the word beaten) into loving.  I still stand by my original statement, that this is simply untrue.

Can they be fooled into thinking it's love, sure.  Can they be conditioned into thinking they need the abuser, yes.

Can they be beaten into submission, yes of course.  But can anyone be beaten into loving another?

No.

Thank you for the links.  It is always good to inform oneself on matters such as this before making judgements.

[Red one]

Is that Love?

Being conditioned to believe they need the other.  Doesn't sound like love to me.

Anyway, my point was in response to you saying a person can be asbused into loving.  I still stand by my original statement, that this is simply untrue.

Can they be fooled into thinking it's love, sure.  Can they be conditioned into thinking they need the abuser, yes.

Can they be beaten into submission, yes of course.  But can anyone be beaten into loving another?

No.

There is no difference for the abused person, is there?
Abused person is CONVINCED that she loves. Bystander understands it's rubbish, doctor understands it's rubbish, but not the abused person. She is convinced that she loves and she will tell anyone that she  ACTUALLY, TRULY LOVES her abuser. That's the trick.

[littlefeather]

There is no difference for the abused person, is there?
Abused person is CONVINCED that she loves. Bystander understands it's rubbish, doctor understands it's rubbish, but not the abused person. She is convinced that she loves and she will tell anyone that she  ACTUALLY, TRULY LOVES her abuser. That's the trick.

So  you are saying that if a person believes a thing to be true, it is?

[Red one]

So  you are saying that if a person believes a thing to be true, it is?

For that person - undoubtedly. Especially, in the case of feelings. If person believed that he could fly - the test would be easy to carry out.

But feelings - well, one can spend eternity in illusions.

[littlefeather]

There is no difference for the abused person, is there?
Abused person is CONVINCED that she loves. Bystander understands it's rubbish, doctor understands it's rubbish, but not the abused person. She is convinced that she loves and she will tell anyone that she  ACTUALLY, TRULY LOVES her abuser. That's the trick.

Seems we got off track a tad...

Loving someone who abuses you -- there are many cases of this, parents abuse children, family members abuse and love still happens--  this is not the same as being "beaten into loving"  which is what you had said that I disagreed with.

Besides, there are many known cases of violence where the victim has been literally beaten into loving the abuser

[Red one]

Nope, we are well on track and have been on track.

Beaten into loving = beaten to the state of psychosis were the victim starts to believe she loves her abuser. For her, her love is real, but for anybody else - it is just a psychosis.

Thus, beating can induce in the victim sincere belief that she loves her abuser, and from the abuser's perspective, beating induced 'love' in the victim.

[zenandnow]

Red, (is it Erik?), I have been following this thread for a few days . . . you make some fine points about love and are asking (what I feel) are good and deep questions . .. . that I have greatly enjoyed asking myself (so thank you).

I could be wrong, but you don't seem to post here much anymore and over the last year or two . . . the last subject you posted (that I know you posted) . . . really shows an incredible shift from say five years ago . . . enough to even make me stand up and take notice (well done).  No, it wasn't a contest, just letting you know I noticed for what its worth.  

Regarding love . . . we call so many different thoughts/feelings/emotions "love" that I think we'd all do better with these matters if we had more names rather than just love.

One stalking exercise that I have done, and do again every now and then, was to discern apart all the different thoughts/feelings/emotions we previously called love . . . and I am a bit like you in that I view many of the things we call love are NOT in fact love.  For some time I wrote and spoke (in other venues) about the different levels of love *sighs and exhales* but that just doesn't seem to cut it for this new era (for me . . . to me it doesn't seem accurate enough).  

I do consider that there is a level of awareness (I call it a "frequency") that when one is in, there can only ever be love flowing out of one for all others.  This is a level of extremely expanded awareness in which all things are understood to a very high or spiritual degree . . . at this level there can be no judgment, the ability to judge is not present, and thus there is only love flowing out to all others . . . to every other.  The love that flows out, seems to me what we meant when we came up with the label of unconditional love . . . and this state of being, the state of love flowing out, is one of pure joy.  

I dare say that this frequency has not been reached often by human beings in our entire human history . . . but those who may have touched on it would be the Jesus's and Buddha's . . . and yet it seems all seek it.

Likewise, I seek it . . . I have tasted it (or come close to tasting it) but a few times . . . but it only took one glimpse, the first taste, to want nothing else in this plane of existance.  

Love, to me, real love . . . is like the flame on a birthday cake candle . . . the more you light with that one flame, the flame never diminishes . . . and different from the candle in that the more we love, the more love we have to love with.    

What is love?  There are no words I have learned for that . . . I could only point at things and say, "here, it is like that."  

Love is the flame that burns in me . . . the fire I kindle and add wood to . . . the fire I fuel all I do with.  

Love is what roots me center in my beingness . . . the source of all my strength . . . the stemming of all my curiosity.  

Love is looking at you . . . in your shininess . . . in your glowing brilliance that IS you . . . in that nameless, faceless, beingness that makes up you . . . different from all the other shiny beings.  Beholding you, there is only love.  

What IS love?  Erik, can you answer it?  Can you come up with words that sufficiently embody the whole of love's essence?  I know I cannot . . . but I do love trying *warm smiles.*

Thank you for the subject, and thank you for not backing down away from the subject into the petty cynacism regarding love.  

[Red one]

I do consider that there is a level of awareness (I call it a "frequency") that when one is in, there can only ever be love flowing out of one for all others.  This is a level of extremely expanded awareness in which all things are understood to a very high or spiritual degree . . . at this level there can be no judgment, the ability to judge is not present, and thus there is only love flowing out to all others . . . to every other.  The love that flows out, seems to me what we meant when we came up with the label of unconditional love . . . and this state of being, the state of love flowing out, is one of pure joy.

That's a good description of it. I would add that there is an immense feeling of equanimity where no being is more precious than any other - they ALL are precious. I'd guess it is an aspect of Power that is present in the universe; that is within the reach, but a constant staying there requires very deep changes in self.