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Author Topic: *Egypt  (Read 63431 times)

Offline nemo

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Re: *Egypt
« Reply #240 on: December 12, 2016, 07:27:20 PM »
Quote
Third Attention: YOU CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE!

You must not be familiar with the third point of reference?

When I have time I will give a more elaborate reply, but I may need to post a few words that you use, and ask what you mean by them. We don't use the same meanings for the same words at times it seems.

Also my intent was to make clear to people who read this thread whenever they might do. To understand when you summarize this thread like you did, with "labyrinth" that it is a conjecture on you part rather than an understanding of what I have been saying. Conjecture may not be the right word, maybe a digression is better. Not so much to fire up interaction with you, because I do feel like someone talking about one thing and you commenting inappropriately. A good analogy would be I have agreed to talk about basketball, (attention/w/view) but you keep talking rugby and what you say doesn't give me the feeling you are grasping basketball. Though confusing as it might be, it may still be of some benefit.

Ryokan said:

When all thoughts
Are exhausted
I slip into the woods
And gather
A pile of shepherd's purse.

Like the little stream
Making its way
Through the mossy crevices
I, too, quietly
Turn clear and transparent.

This is a lovely prose/poem by Ryokan, To me this in Toltec terminology is becoming formless. Is that something you believe I have not achieved? (chuckle)
All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline nemo

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real
« Reply #241 on: December 14, 2016, 10:11:10 AM »
What does real mean to you Michael?
All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline nemo

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exit
« Reply #242 on: December 14, 2016, 10:23:38 AM »
Michael said:

 
Quote
The universe is an endless labyrinth, and understanding the mechanism of how it is built, is not the same as understanding how to exit.

What do you mean by exitin the context from this quote, to where, what, etc?
All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline nemo

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death
« Reply #243 on: December 14, 2016, 10:27:02 AM »
What do you mean by death?
All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline nemo

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world
« Reply #244 on: December 14, 2016, 10:31:17 AM »
What do you mean by world?
All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline nemo

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universe
« Reply #245 on: December 14, 2016, 10:33:12 AM »
What do you mean by universe?
All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline nemo

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attention
« Reply #246 on: December 14, 2016, 10:47:00 AM »
What do you mean by attention?
All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline Michael

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Re: *Egypt
« Reply #247 on: December 16, 2016, 05:51:20 AM »
A good analogy would be I have agreed to talk about basketball, (attention/w/view) but you keep talking rugby and what you say doesn't give me the feeling you are grasping basketball.

That's the best thing you've said so far nemo.

This offers you a consistent and (for your mind) excellent excuse from engaging with my critique. But it goes further, it means you can't engage, full stop. All you can do is put your view. You block out any attempt to have a conversation: your view is in your words, no one else's words are relevant.

You think this thread has been about explication of your view. Any attempt by me to either agree or disagree is negated. You are happy, when I ask you to expand on a point, but as soon as I either elaborate or challenge, you claim my words are about something totally different. So in fact, this thread has been a long display of your personality. Nothing to do with your view at all. The point has been all along, that your are incapable of thinking collaboratively.

Whenever you ask a question, the purpose of asking is to demonstrate how the answer is incorrect, whatever that answer is. The reason, is that you must maintain your superiority at any cost. Not unusual. I wouldn't bother replying at all if it weren't for a certain quality of style you have.

Every time I respond to you, I know how you will react, and the quote above explains that. I recognised this from the first few posts of this thread. But there is something else going on here...

Nonetheless, here are my answers:

Reality. Understanding what is reality, is the final point of the inner path - a point that evolves endlessly. It passes through veils, again and again. But it is the ultimate quest - to seek reality. It is the direction more than the understanding, that is critical.

Exit. To exit from unreality, fantasy, enchantment, dream, projection. To exit is to seek reality.

Death. There are two deaths, the death of the soul and the death of the body. First we deal with the dying soul. Once the soul has died, we are free, and then we deal with the death of the body sans attitude. On the inner path, the first threshold is the Portal of Death. This in fact, means the death of the soul, but alas, we don't know that, so we have to engage with the body's death. If we belong to the chosen few, we survive the body's death and we live on with a dead soul, or rather, a dead pseudo-soul: one that was constructed for us by others.

But death means more in symbolic truth: it means the end. Only by confronting the end of anything can we begin to comprehend the reality of that thing.

World. I tend to use this word to specifically refer to our 'world'. Not the universe or the earth. It is the composite whole of our 'agreement'. Thus for those who have not passed through the Portal of Death, the world is absolutely everything. For those who have passed through the Portal of Death, the world is everything we know. The difference being that such people have had their shell cracked, and thus they now incorporate the reality of the unknown within their sphere of possibility - ie they live with visceral uncertainty as a constant. But still - the world is the known.

Universe. I tend to employ this non-scientifically. It incorporates the unknown as well as the known.

Cosmos. When I do use this, I also do it unscientifically, incorporating the unknowable, unknown and known.

Attention. In general: the focus of perception. In the jargon of the inner path people, it holds a specific meaning. Attention is an acquired capacity to concentrate. In fact, it is a very loose word which enfolds a precise practice. First we focus, then we learn to desire, which sustains focus. Then we apply rigger, which creates concentration. Then we apply suffering, which brings power into our attention. Then we learn freedom through failure, which brings the whip into attention. Lastly, we acquire knowledge, which converts attention into intent.

But when used as in First Attention, the word attention means all that we perceive within the energetic boundaries of the three 'attentions'. These are three capacities for perceiving within us, and they are separated by an energetic wall. We can learn to penetrate that wall, and bring the three perceptions into one view, but that is an achievement which belongs to realisations of a layer of being beneath the energetic boundaries. It in no way denies the existence of those boundaries for those who exist in the body-enclosed reality. Attention here means a total perceptual existence.

Oh well, for the few who can grasp it: we are made up of three components. Firstly, we are passive perceivers. Secondly we are the perceived. Thirdly, we are wind - activators. The three attentions relate to the second component. Attention here means not that we perceive, but what we perceive. The First Attention is the world of hard edges. The Second Attention is the world of feeling-image. The Third Attention is the world beyond all worlds - Nirguna Brahman: existence without attributes, meaning there is nothing we can say about it. Mind you, there are the foreshores of the Third Attention, also called Saguna Brahman, within which we have pulse, intent, timbre, but that's just a specialised vehicle for those of us who enjoy excursions into the Third Attention.

Freedom. Oddly, you didn't ask me this one, and yet it is the most controversial word of all. Freedom to me, is the ability to face that 360º doorways I spoke of earlier, without losing energy. This is a master practice, and I practice it in a very carefully constructed way (which I will explain in my next book). The effect on me psychologically, is when the walls and floor separate, and I look down beneath to endless black infinity. It is a panic attack, as the 'world' disintegrates. All external reference points fail absolutely. To witness this yet hold myself together as a self-aware, self-sustaining entity in its ultimate essence, is the gateway to freedom. Everything I do in life, no matter how large or small, is done by me purely as an exercise in preparation for this experience.

Now nemo, let me ask you a question:

What is love for an adept?

Offline nemo

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Re: *Egypt
« Reply #248 on: December 18, 2016, 06:30:34 AM »
Ouch, It's a little comical to be promoting your view of me and my motivations now too. 

Define for me what "reality" is from my perspective/view of the third attention. Not YOUR perspective of what the third attention view is, but using the definitions I have been using? If you have gotten your head around what "I" have been saying then it should be a cinch. If you can that would actually be great!


Quote
What is love for an adept?

unconditional

Quote
Freedom. Oddly, you didn't ask me this one, and yet it is the most controversial word of all. Freedom to me, is the ability to face that 360º doorways I spoke of earlier, without losing energy. This is a master practice, and I practice it in a very carefully constructed way (which I will explain in my next book). The effect on me psychologically, is when the walls and floor separate, and I look down beneath to endless black infinity. It is a panic attack, as the 'world' disintegrates. All external reference points fail absolutely. To witness this yet hold myself together as a self-aware, self-sustaining entity in its ultimate essence, is the gateway to freedom. Everything I do in life, no matter how large or small, is done by me purely as an exercise in preparation for this experience.

Have been rereading the thread and posted words I came across, and did not run into freedom yet:

These definitions you gave are going to very helpful thankyou.

All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline Michael

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Re: *Egypt
« Reply #249 on: December 18, 2016, 07:30:32 AM »
Love for the adept, is the earth.

Offline nemo

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Re: *Egypt
« Reply #250 on: December 18, 2016, 09:39:06 PM »
Love for the adept, is the earth.


This question was asked by you on another thread and when I asked you what  your answer to this question is u replied:

Quote
No, I don't have pat answers, and I don't feel there are pat answers. I see these questions in some way plague any traveller of the Path, let alone an adept.



Here's Genero's love for the earth, from "tales of power" I have underlined a portion with a comment from me at the end.

"It's almost time for us to disband like the warriors in the story," he said. "But before we go
our separate ways I must tell you two one last thing. I am going to disclose to you a warrior's
secret. Perhaps you can call it a warrior's predilection." 
He addressed me in particular and said that once I had told him that the life of a warrior was
cold and lonely and devoid of feelings. He even added that at that precise moment I was
convinced that it was so. 
"The life of a warrior cannot possibly be cold and lonely and without feelings," he said,
"because it is based on his affection, his devotion, his dedication to his beloved. And who,
you may ask, is his beloved? I will show you now." 
Don Genaro stood up and walked slowly to a perfectly flat area right in front of us, ten or
twelve feet away. He made a strange gesture there. He moved his hands as if he were
sweeping dust from his chest and his stomach. Then an odd thing happened. A flash of an
almost imperceptible light went through him. It came from the ground and seemed to kindle
his entire body. He did a sort of backward pirouette, a backward dive more properly speaking,
and landed on his chest and arms. His movement had been executed with such precision and
skill that he seemed to be a weightless being, a wormlike creature that had turned on itself.
When he was on the ground he performed a series of unearthly movements. He glided just a
few inches above the ground, or rolled on it as if he were lying on ball bearings; or he swam
on it describing circles and turning with the swiftness and agility of an eel swimming in the
ocean. 
My eyes began to cross at one moment and then without any transition I was watching a ball
of luminosity sliding back and forth on something that appeared to be the floor of an ice-
skating rink with a thousand lights shining on it. 
The sight was sublime. Then the ball of fire came to rest and stayed motionless. A voice
shook me and dispelled my attention. It was don Juan talking. I could not understand at first
what he was saying. I looked again at the ball of fire. I could distinguish only don Genaro
lying on the ground with his arms and legs spread out. 
Don Juan's voice was very clear. It seemed to trigger something in me and I began to write.  "Genaro's love is the world," he said. "He was just now embracing this enormous earth but
since he's so little all he can do is swim in it. But the earth knows that Genaro loves it and it
bestows on him its care. That's why Genaro's life is filled to the brim and his state, wherever
he'll be, will be plentiful. Genaro roams on the paths of his love and, wherever he is, he is
complete." 

Don Juan squatted in front of us. He caressed the ground gently. 
"This is the predilection of two warriors," he said. "This earth, this world. For a warrior there
can be no greater love." 
Don Genaro stood up and squatted next to don Juan for a moment while both of them peered
fixedly at us, then they sat in unison, cross-legged. 
"Only if one loves this earth with unbending passion can one release one's sadness," don Juan
said. "A warrior is always joyful because his love is unalterable and his beloved, the earth,
embraces him and bestows upon him inconceivable gifts. The sadness belongs only to those
who hate the very thing that gives shelter to their beings." 
Don Juan again caressed the ground with tenderness. 
"This lovely being, which is alive to its last recesses and understands every feeling, soothed
me, it cured me of my pains, and finally when I had fully understood my love for it, it taught
me freedom." 
He paused. The silence around us was frightening. The wind hissed softly and then I heard the
distant barking of a lone dog. 
"Listen to that barking," don Juan went on. "That is the way my beloved earth is helping me
now to bring this last point to you. That barking is the saddest thing one can hear." 
We were quiet for a moment. The barking of that lone dog was so sad and the stillness around
us so intense that I experienced a numbing anguish. It made me think of my own life, my
sadness, my not knowing where to go, what to do. 
"That dog's barking is the nocturnal [* nocturnal- belonging to or active during the night]
voice of a man," don Juan said. "It comes from a house in that valley towards the south. A
man is shouting through his dog- since they are companion slaves for life- his sadness; his
boredom. He's begging his death to come and release him from the dull and dreary chains of
his life." 
Don Juan's words had caught a most disturbing line in me. I felt he was speaking directly to
me. 
"That barking, and the loneliness it creates, speaks of the feelings of men," he went on. "Men
for whom an entire life was like one Sunday afternoon; an afternoon which was not altogether
miserable, but rather hot and dull and uncomfortable. They sweated and fussed a great deal.
They didn't know where to go, or what to do. That afternoon left them only with the memory
of petty annoyances and tedium, and then suddenly it was over. It was already night."  He recounted a story I had once told him about a seventy-two year old man who complained
that his life had been so short that it seemed to him that it was only the day before that he was
a boy. The man had said to me, 'I remember the pajamas I used to wear when I was ten years
old. It seems that only one day has passed. Where did the time go?' 
"The antidote that kills that poison is here," don Juan said, caressing the ground. "The
sorcerers' explanation cannot at all liberate the spirit. Look at you two. You have gotten to the
sorcerers' explanation, but it doesn't make any difference that you know it. You're more alone
than ever, because without an unwavering love for the being that gives you shelter, aloneness
is loneliness. 
"Only the love for this splendorous being can give freedom to a warrior's spirit; and freedom
is joy, efficiency, and abandon in the face of any odds. That is the last lesson. It is always left
for the very last moment, for the moment of ultimate solitude when a man faces his death and
his aloneness. Only then does it make sense." 
Don Juan and don Genaro stood up and stretched their arms and arched their backs, as if
sitting had made their bodies stiff. My heart began to pound fast. They made Pablito and me
stand up. 
"The twilight is the crack between the worlds," don Juan said. "It is the door to the unknown." 
He pointed with a sweeping movement of his hand to the mesa where we were standing. 
"This is the plateau in front of that door." 
He pointed then to the northern edge of the mesa. 
"There is the door. Beyond, there is an abyss and beyond that abyss is the unknown." 
Don Juan and don Genaro then turned to Pablito and said good-by to him. Pablito's eyes were
dilated and fixed; tears were rolling down his cheeks. 
I heard don Genaro's voice saying good-by to me, but I did not hear don Juan's. 
Don Juan and don Genaro moved towards Pablito and whispered briefly in his ears. Then they
came to me. But before they had whispered anything I already had that peculiar feeling of
being split. 
"We will now be like dust on the road," don Genaro said. "Perhaps it will get in your eyes
again, someday." 
Don Juan and don Genaro stepped back and seemed to merge with the darkness. Pablito held
my forearm and we said good-by to each other. Then a strange urge, a force, made me run
with him to the northern edge of the mesa. I felt his arm holding me as we jumped and then I
was alone. 
 

Michael, I was looking forward and then followed your blog trip to india. At the beginning you spent some time
on the beach. While there you complained about how the beach had changed from what you thought it should be
and how the wind surfers etc were not to your liking. My thought at the time was I would never complain about
where I was like that, and to complain as you did showed me that you did not know what I know about what thoughts
like that can do, especially with the emotional charge of disapproval behind it.

Before you left we discussed Kashmir, and I spent some effort at the time explaining that there is not a fixed Kashmir, and your beliefs would determine which Kashmir, in an infinite pool of Kashmirs you would engage with, if you went there.

This boils down again, to the question "how many earths there are in your view?"

Having said that, this love for the earth, you give as your answer to what love is for an adept, is borrowed from this passage above. In action though on a very deep level you have not grasped the unconditional aspect of that love. You seem more at odds with the earth, than the profound love for it that Genaro displays.





All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline runningstream

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Re: *Egypt
« Reply #251 on: December 18, 2016, 10:28:14 PM »
Nemo ,
Why not pull the lint out of your belly button
Mix it with some ear wax
Light a fire
And say what you have to say
Without back and forward who said what
Politicking
I told you there is no time
There is no time
If you have the words
Don't keep acting like Michael is too stupid to hear them
And just  say them
Before I metaphorically ro shambo your bollocks
Into action

Offline nemo

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Re: *Egypt
« Reply #252 on: December 19, 2016, 12:18:09 AM »
runningstream, I truly believe that Michael does not grasp what I have already presented, with words a few different ways already. It's interesting to offer three defined views that three defined attentions hold as their MO and then not be able to point out that a comment or action comes from a certain attentions view, as I have defined them without getting abuse.

To Michael the question "what is love for an adept" seemed important, not because he is interested in my answer, but because he wants to give his answer. That's plane to see is it not?

Now, yes it's getting a little uncomfortable, would  y'all like me to discontinue?

 
All that is not based on truth shall crumble and fall, much that crumbles and falls was once truth --- nemo

Offline runningstream

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Re: *Egypt
« Reply #253 on: December 19, 2016, 12:47:27 AM »
No
You are both correct merely starting from different ends to reach the same point

Offline Michael

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Re: *Egypt
« Reply #254 on: December 19, 2016, 08:38:36 AM »
I am not in disagreement with your response to love nemo.
I was merely putting my own view, which in now way negates your response..

Yes, the thought originated with your quote, which I probably read about forty years ago. But it has taken me forty years to realise deeper and deeper the truth of that. And of course, the 'earth' is a more than what is commonly perceived.

You asked me some questions, and I asked you one. Now, what have you to share with us?