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Author Topic: Reincarnation, rebirth, and the double  (Read 2012 times)

Offline Endless~Knot

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Reincarnation, rebirth, and the double
« on: July 14, 2013, 11:54:49 AM »
There are many beliefs out there what survives after death, and what happens to us. They are so vast, yet they do have similarities to each other which are fascinating.

Hinduism believes we have a jiva, and this is like a divine spark within us. When it becomes free from doing various work, this becomes the transcendental atman and this atman survives death. In Gnosticism, they believe that light became trapped in matter, and within us is a divine spark, and it is about releasing these sparks, through uncovering the darkness within and realizing the light, one can go on. In Kabbalah, there is also a divine spark, and what we do is discover our spark, and also work at releasing the spark in others to bring light into the world, so we can go on.

Buddhism is more unique in that they believe in rebirth and it is not a spark or jiva but a 'stream of consciousness,' which goes on, but not the self, which is very different. This aspect is the one subject to birth and rebirth until nirvana is achieved.

Christianity describes having a soul, not as much a spark but a soul, and one can go on to a heaven or hell depending on if they are saved. They do not address much about the ego, but they do address that one can 'die to self be born to life,' which seems to imply a death of the ego.

Much of hinduism seems to imply a death of the ego is necessary. Sufism implies death of the ego, to merge with the beloved. Buddhism is the ego is false and unreal to begin with. Kabbalah and Gnosticism pretty much address it that one must shine light in the darkness.

Kabbalah and Hinduism have their own sense of a permanent self, in Kabbalah it is the Adam Kamon, in Hinduism it is the Atman.

Buddhism does not subscribe to any permanent self at all. And explains life that look at a flame lighting one candlestick to candlestick. The stream of consciousness is transferred, but a 'self' is not transfered.

So ultimately, one works on the path very hard and reaches a point, that they realize the ego is not going to go on. That ego is merely a construct, created by various things, which are basically a byproduct of thoughts and emotions. The trap is believing this goes on. The problem is what must be focused on, is what truly goes on, and how can I get that which goes on in the right place for myself.

Some say we may come back in the human realm. However, some do not desire this. So my prediction, is you should decide what you want your essence, however you wish to call it, to go on. Then choose a path which serves that, and develop yourself so you can move on.

Then Castanedas books elude to the Double. The double, DJ says, is the self. The double we create, but then we find, the double was creating us all along. This, ultimately is what can survive at the third attention when we die. We have the ability to wake up in the double in dreaming, and explore worlds doing so. This is one way of transferring our essence.

So all these mentions something transfers. But even Christians may be mistaken, as they think ego is going to go on. Even if you read deeper, die to self and born to life. So even if one goes to a heaven, the ego is going to lose consciousness, because the ego is part of the world.

Then one could say what about ghosts? One of the things with ghosts is they are trapped. They are part of the world, and they have some ego flux, kind of residue, but they did not develop their essence, and basically refused the light when it was time to go. This is why it is important to let go of attachments, develop your essence, so you do not get stuck. It is much worse to be stuck, then achieve a new life. AND it could be they saw they had to come back, no. And refused it. But this is a horrible way to exist, it would be like living in a nightmare.

Ultimately I cannot give a grand answer of what 'exactly it is' that transfers. Like, how do you describe the spark, or a stream of consciousness? All of them seem to have a unique stance on being free. They all require work. Don't be fooled by the Christian premise. One of the things Jesus warns in the Bible, is people will come to him, and he will not know them. so just saying you want to be saved and the sinner prayer is not going to do it> It only makes sense one has to make changes in their life, and work at being a decent person, to be able to survive life in any form. It is foolish to think you could be saved, but you stay a sinner. This is definitely something many are misguided on, and hopefully many will see the light on this.

There are many resources to explore, but it is fascinating when we do examine the similarities and differences of these ways. I cant offer much on this, but I can offer we do have a glimmer of hope, however, our ego, which is a construct of thoughts and emotions, does not go on.

One would have to develop their 'higher consciousness' and develop this, for it to go on. But the little self, does not go on.
“Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own.” - Bruce Lee

Offline Endless~Knot

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Re: Reincarnation, rebirth, and the double
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2013, 12:15:24 PM »
Do not develop the nature which is of man, but develop the nature which is of God.
— Chuang Tzu
“Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own.” - Bruce Lee

Offline Michael

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Re: Reincarnation, rebirth, and the double
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 07:09:51 AM »
Good post EN.

[The double we create, but then we find, the double was creating us all along.] This, ultimately is what can survive at the third attention when we die.

If anyone knows where this is stated in any of CC's books, I would be curious to know. I am aware many believe it, and I have spoken around the subject, although I have restrained my comments to survival from first attention death. To my knowledge it remains a controversial point.

It is nonetheless of critical significance - due to the possibility of evolving a double that can become a vehicle for us after 1st Att death. Personally, I have no evidence it can sustain after 2nd Att death, but I am not ruling that out. It's just that my experience and research indicates no 'vehicle' can exist in the 3rd Att. I anticipate we require a secondary transmigration for that portal - I say 'anticipate' for a reason...

Lets say that the early phases of the 3rd Att, as explained by Steiner, constitute such elements as intent, then it is natural to expect this requires an 'enclosure'. Once we pass beyond those early phases, the matter of an enclosure becomes ....

At which point, we need to see beyond the double - something within which has the capability of looking back. That requires long years of practice: awareness of awareness.

Offline Endless~Knot

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Re: Reincarnation, rebirth, and the double
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 10:33:42 AM »
Good post EN.

If anyone knows where this is stated in any of CC's books, I would be curious to know. I am aware many believe it, and I have spoken around the subject, although I have restrained my comments to survival from first attention death. To my knowledge it remains a controversial point.

It is nonetheless of critical significance - due to the possibility of evolving a double that can become a vehicle for us after 1st Att death. Personally, I have no evidence it can sustain after 2nd Att death, but I am not ruling that out. It's just that my experience and research indicates no 'vehicle' can exist in the 3rd Att. I anticipate we require a secondary transmigration for that portal - I say 'anticipate' for a reason...

Lets say that the early phases of the 3rd Att, as explained by Steiner, constitute such elements as intent, then it is natural to expect this requires an 'enclosure'. Once we pass beyond those early phases, the matter of an enclosure becomes ....

At which point, we need to see beyond the double - something within which has the capability of looking back. That requires long years of practice: awareness of awareness.

Yes I have encountered many people who said this, so perhaps this may be why I said it. Perhaps however this is the 'nirvana' or 'moksha' stage on the path then? When ultimately the flame is stuffed out and there are no more candlesticks to light?

That's how I understood it but I could be wrong.
“Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own.” - Bruce Lee

Offline Endless~Knot

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Re: Reincarnation, rebirth, and the double
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 10:35:49 AM »
"The smallest, the first attention, or the consciousness that every normal person has developed in order to deal with the daily world, encompasses the awareness of the physical body. Another larger portion, the second attention, is the awareness we need in order to perceive our luminous cocoon and to act as luminous beings. The second attention is brought forth through deliberate training or by an accidental trauma, and it encompasses the awareness of the luminous body. The last portion, which is the largest, is the third attention. It's an immeasurable consciousness which engages undefinable aspects of the awareness of the physical and the luminous bodies. The battlefield of warriors is the second attention, which is something like a training ground for reaching the third attention."

" The third attention is attained when the glow of awareness turns into the fire from within: a glow that kindles not one band at a time but all the Indescribable Force 's emanations inside man's cocoon. The supreme accomplishment of human beings is to attain that level of attention while retaining the lifeforce."

He says you retain your lifeforce so why wouldn't we survive somehow at the third attention?
“Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own.” - Bruce Lee

Offline Endless~Knot

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Re: Reincarnation, rebirth, and the double
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 04:12:42 PM »
And just in case people are wondering, I don't know about accessing it now. I have seen some people claim their doubles have burned with the fire from within. But myself, I would see this needing to be a more cohesive undertaking. IOW when I merge with the double.

The other thing, Buddha achieved Nirvana while in body, the only way he can. So I think after he died, then as he had achieved nirvana, he was able to access the third.

I did see someone relate to the first attention as body, second as soul, and third as spirit. Spirit has often been likened to a fire. So this is quite possible this would be what DJ meant, that the third attention is the realm of spirit's flame. Kind of like the sufi flame that Rumi wrote about.

But I could be wrong. I don't think I will know until later.
“Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own.” - Bruce Lee