Soma
Tools of the Path => Other Paths [Public] => Topic started by: tangerine dream on December 24, 2008, 03:36:31 PM
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For the Love
A talk by Adi Da Samraj
November 26, 1984
On this day a remarkable dialogue took place between Adi Da Samraj and Aniello Panico, who, at that time, was serving in the kitchen at Adidam Samrajashram in Fiji. Aniello had discovered a large rat there—surrounded by the corpses of five mice, whose heads had been chewed off. Repelled, Aniello had asked Adi Da for one of the cats on the island to "take care" of this rat.
ANIELLO: Now, everybody here would call it a mouse, but I'm from New York, and I know it was a rat! He was easily six inches long. He was looking at us and thinking he was as cute as Mickey Mouse.
ADI DA SAMRAJ: They are cute, Aniello. I don't mind them.
ANIELLO: But, Master, he wasn't alone. There were four or five little mice with their heads eaten off! This killer was trying to look cute, as if he were at Disneyland, but that devil had eaten those little mice's heads off.
ADI DA SAMRAJ: Eating beings is always disturbing—not necessarily the eating, but the witnessing of the eating. There is nothing I can do about this, Aniello. This world is dreadful. Do you have any idea what is happening in conditional nature?
All beings are My own. Yet, you must sacrifice them in order to live. You beings, you humans here, require the murdering of living beings to eat and survive. You must come to terms with this fact. To do so you must come to terms with your own life and death and accept the fact that you are a sacrifice, and that conditionally manifested existence is not merely a jolly time. All of you could potentially die a painful death and live a painful lifetime. By entering into relationship with Me, I am Giving you another slice of possibility.
Do not become overly disgusted by the manifestations of non-human creatures, Aniello. Accept your own state and the fact that you, in a sense, eat heads and require the pain of beings to live. Beyond that, know that you must accept the pain of life and death. You are a sacrifice. To exist in this form is revolting, treacherous, and potentially painful. Some few may slide through with comparatively little pain and die in bed, but of the beings on this planet, how many do?
Human beings are not gods and goddesses here. All suffer the fate of animals. All must come to terms with this and, out of compassion, relieve as many as possible from that destiny.
Do you know how many dreadful deaths human beings have suffered compared to your mice? There have been much worse. And how many fear death? How many fear that kind of death? Everyone does. All are meat and can be eaten. Luckily for you, you get to Commune with Me and live the Truth and be Delighted and experience Ecstasy while manifest in mortal form.
So you have the potential to do something different, but you do not have the potential to not sacrifice. Conditionally manifested existence is participation in sacrifice, and there is no reason to be righteous about that fact. You should be humbled by the knowledge. You cannot even breathe without sacrificing self-conscious beings. You cannot walk or move, you cannot live from day to day, without taking life in some form. You may eat an orange or a bit of lettuce in your salad. Look at your plate. Look at the sacrifice. Do not be guilty about it. Know it. You are not yet so different from the rat. You eat heads, too. You are revolting. You are flesh. You are to be sacrificed. You are a sacrifice in your most precious form, that to which you would most dearly cling. You are! Be revolted, but be illumined by your knowledge. Make changes. Devote your sacrifice to changing existence. Do not be happy about it, but do not be righteous either. This is My advice, Aniello.
I love rats, Aniello. I Embrace them—rats, mice, walls, amoebas, frogs—I Embrace everybody. I Love everybody. I want to Wake Up every being into this Ecstasy in the midst of death. I have no righteousness in Me, no moral righteousness on any point. I am willing to become incredibly ridiculous to Wake you Up. I do everything! I have no moral righteousness in Me, no un-Love. I make no distinction between beings—humans, rats, amoebas—none.
All beings are suffering the obligation to be eaten. I want to Give you the alternative, even though you may be eaten and even though you eat in the meantime. I want to Give you the Vision of My Glory, Wake you Up, Give you Ecstasy, the Experience of Happiness and Fullness, even while you are dying, not to mention while you live. This is a real and very important matter. I am not here to deny you the knowledge of what you are experiencing and what other beings experience. I am here to sensitize you to what all other beings experience, what other forms—like these curtains and that fan—experience, even though they may not even appear to be conscious.
You think there is no consciousness in these so-called objects. There is nothing but Consciousness Itself, everything threatened by the fact of existing in conditional form. I have great Love, Compassion, Feeling. I do not look down on the rat, Aniello. That poor sucker breaks My Heart! And you should feel likewise, if you love Me. I am here to sensitize you to your own sacrifice and the sacrifice of others. I am here to Call you beyond it, not to deny it. A lifetime here is so short. The logic of existence itself, when you know Me, transcends these murders, this ugliness, these limits.
Where do you think you are? You deny the rat your love? I deny no one. I draw no lines around Me. I Love all!
[Taken from the book, See My Brightness Face to Face: A Celebration of Adi Da Samraj, and the First 25 Years of His Divine Revelation Work. This book is available from The Dawn Horse Press.]
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Nothing wrong with love, but Adi Da is...at least highly questionable.
Yes, I realize he is a bit controversial. He does have some good messages, though.
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"See Right Visions"
by Stuart Camps --
A thousand years ago the inland plains of North America were home to immense herds of bison. Each year they would undertake their great migrations across the unfenced vastness of what today is called the United States of America. For centuries the lives of the people depended upon the movements of these animals. The large, woolly bison were the life-blood of the plains Indians. They were a great resource of material and spiritual abundance and were worshipped as Spirit-beings.
A centuries-old sacred legend of the Lakota Sioux tells of two young hunters from the region we now call Dakota. They were out on a hunting trip. During their journey they encountered a pure white buffalo calf who shape-shifted into a beautiful woman, the legendary White Buffalo Calf Woman. She gave the young men instruction about how the Sioux should live, and prophesied her eventual return in the form of a white female buffalo calf. The reappearance of the White Buffalo Calf Woman was long expected by the Sioux, and other tribes, to initiate the restoration of their culture and that of all mankind to the Great Divine Spirit.
"Miracle" is the name given to a tiny bison calf born on a small farm in Janesville, Wisconsin, on August 20, 1994. Miracle was female, and pure white.
To the Native Americans, the appearance of Miracle was the Divine manifestation they had been waiting for. Word of her birth spread rapidly and the pilgrimages began. Native Americans traveled to Janesville from all over the United States to pay homage to this buffalo calf. They brought gifts with them -- dream-catchers, medicine wheels, sweet grass, turquoise, cedar berries, alabaster. They came to perform ceremonies and offer prayers and gifts.
On the other side of the world, in Fiji, Avatar Adi Da Samraj came to hear of the birth of Miracle. Immediately prior to receiving news about the calf's birth Adi Da had been looking at some books and videos about Native American culture (including the White Buffalo Calf prophecy). Then after hearing about the birth of Miracle He asked a question about the prophecy.
Avatar Adi Da Samraj: As I remember, the source of the legend of the White Buffalo Woman is the tradition of the sacred pipe described by Black Elk. I have the impression that the return of this Spirit is regarded to be a sign of the end of the world and of the restoration of Native Americans to their integrity, which inherently has something to do with their lands. The prophecy contains both suggestions. What are they actually presuming? Does the appearance of this white buffalo signal the restoration of the Native Americans, or is it associated with the end of the world--a judgment day, a holocaust, or some such event? (November 8, 1994)
Since the Sioux are the keepers of the Sacred Pipe of the prophecy of the White Buffalo Calf Woman, I contacted two men of the Lakota Sioux Nation in Rapid City, South Dakota: Joseph Chasing Horse, one of the Sioux leaders, and Floyd Hand, a shaman of high degree. Both men were receptive to our inquiry.
In phone conversations with them I learned that the Sioux regarded the white calf as a sign of the purification of the Nations of Native Americans and of the world, and that, with Miracle's birth, they predict the regeneration of humanity through an ordeal of difficulty, suffering, and hardship. This ordeal will bring people back to their roots, to the source of the Great Mystery. The Sioux regard the prophecy about the "end of the world" as a signal of the completion of the so-called white man's present civilization, thereby simultaneously initiating the restoration of spiritual integrity for all people.
Both Joseph Chasing Horse and Floyd Hand asked me to give respective messages to Adi Da. Joseph Chasing Horse wanted Adi Da to know about a large gathering of Native Americans at Big Mountain, Arizona, in June of 1995. The purpose of this four-day ceremony was to inspire the Native American people to return to their roots, to the "Buffalo". With the state of the world as it is Native American leaders feel urgent that all cultures return to their roots, to the spiritual source of existence.
Floyd Hand spoke to me about visions he had received in relation to the white calf prophecy. He mentioned that during the predicted period of restoration, many white animals would be born, the sign of the reappearance of purity and goodness. He also said that many black animals would be born, the sign of the ending of old ways. As my conversation with Floyd Hand was about to end, he asked me to pass on a message to Adi Da Samraj about a vision he experienced while we were talking on the phone.
Floyd said, "Tell Him to watch the left side of his body and his left hand, for a serpent is crawling, and the serpent is not a snake. He goes to a small hill, with trees, where he meditates. A person will approach him from his left side, and it will be a female. Tell him to watch, to be careful."
When I asked Floyd to explain the vision to me he said I did not need to know anything about it. He said that Adi Da would know what the vision means and that I should just pass on the message.
Avatar Adi Da received a report of these conversations and the personal messages from the two men the next morning.
On only a handful of occasions has Adi Da hand-written a letter to someone. On the morning of November 16, 1994, Avatar Adi Da sat at His desk in His house in Fiji and wrote a brief reply to Floyd Hand's verbal message. This letter was placed in Adi Da's Blessing Temple, the "Sukra Kendra" for a time, and was then passed on for us to communicate it to Floyd Hand.
The letter is a confession to Floyd Hand, to all Native Americans and to men and women everywhere, of Adi Da's Intimacy with all beings and of His Divine Purpose in the world. He also invited Floyd Hand to a fuller understanding of the vision he had received, which Adi Da said was an authentic one. Floyd Hand is a traditional shaman of the Lakota Sioux. He had never heard of Adi Da until our phone conversation.
Avatar Adi Da's letter (excerpted, November 16, 1994): If you see right visions, then See Who I Am. I Am Adi Da, the Expected One, Named John by Birth. The Woman you see on My left Is Not here to do harm. I have Husbanded Her, So That the coming events May Be Made "Bright". She Is the One you see Appearing As the White Animals, but She Is Only My Own "Bright" Spirit-Power. What you see as the serpent of harm Is Only the Rising of My Own Spiritual Energy, to Purify and Control the earth and the ego. The white tribes, and every tribe, of every color, must be Purified at heart, or all will suffer. I Am the Sun of the Heart. I Stand At the right-hand side of every one. Therefore, do not meditate on harm, or on what you see to the left. Keep your eye to the right, and only meditate on Me. Every one must meditate only on Me, for the Sake of "Brightness". Ask Her, and She will also Tell you This of Me. (end of letter)
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Adi Da Samraj, 2007
Below, from James Steinberg, is a brief explanation of the esoteric meanings in Adi Da's letter to Floyd Hand.
When Adi Da points to His Name, "John by Birth", He is referring to auspicious Native American prophecies of the appearance of a white-skinned God-Man named "John" who would come for the spiritual benefit of the world. At birth, Adi Da's given name was "Franklin Jones", and for many years during His Teaching Work He was known as "Bubba (or 'Da') Free John". "Free John" is a rendering of "Franklin Jones", which means literally "a free man (Franklin) through whom God is Gracious (Jones is a variation of John)".
The "Woman" on the left whom Adi Da says He has Husbanded is the Divine Goddess, or the very force of cosmic nature and all conditional manifestation. When the Goddess is un-Husbanded and independent, she is out of control, birthing and deathing living beings indiscriminately. In the Hindu Tantric traditions, the woman on a man's right is independent, un-husbanded, therefore randomly available to others. When a woman submits to be husbanded by a man, she stands on the man's left and he stands at her right. Thus He says that the Great Woman Stands at His left, which is what Floyd saw in the vision.
The "serpent" in Floyd's vision indicates, in traditional imagery, Adi Da's Divine Spirit-Power. In the Yogic traditions of the East, the spiritual energy, or "Kundalini", that is said to rise in the body-mind is likened to a serpent. Thus, Floyd Hand rightly saw the "serpent" of Adi Da's Divine Spiritual Energy.
The cultures of mankind in all times have contained prophecies expressing the hopes of all humans for a Divine Intervention to restore the world to Happiness. Such is the prayer expressed by Native Americans in their prophecy of "John" and in the legend of the white buffalo.
Avatar Adi Da concludes His letter by speaking to Floyd Hand, a shaman who is in touch with greater energies and powers that the ordinary man is not normally available to... He invites Floyd to, "Ask Her, and She will also Tell you This of Me."
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It was early in the evening of November 16th in South Dakota when Floyd Hand was reached by telephone. The letter from Adi Da was read to him by Crane Kirkbride.
Sioux elders are typically well considered in their speech, saying only what is useful or necessary for the moment. Floyd Hand listened quietly to Adi Da's communication to him. He was quiet for a while. Then he said, "This is a good letter. This is a letter for the whole world to hear."
(Postscript: Floyd Hand is a Lakota Sioux medicine man. His tribal name is "Looks For Buffalo". Floyd is not a devotee of Adi Da's. He lives his traditional ways within his ancient traditional culture, and within its changing context in the modern world.)
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He's no less than cult leader who longs for submission of his followers. He twists the path of love and to love.
Religions are cults... and religious leaders are cult leaders.
I still like his messages. And though he's no longer with us, there's a certain something that shines through, even in his words, it's a spark. It's what I like to see in this world. ;D
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1) he creates the illusion of shortcut; he impersonates somebody taking care of the whole world, healing it in a moment, being the only 'seventh stage realizer'.
2) as he demands a total submission, he creates a second illusion: that of saviour; one only needs to give up his power and personal responsibility and he'll be 'saved' by that wonder-realizer.
That is all very attractive, but thoroughly false.
I don't know the man at all, just enjoying a few of his articles.
:)
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Wikipeda says:
Born Franklin Albert Jones and raised in the New York City borough of Queens, he graduated from Columbia University in 1961, with a BA in philosophy, and from Stanford University in 1966 with an MA in English literature. In 1965, Franklin Jones became a disciple of Albert Rudolph, also known as Rudi or Swami Rudrananda. In 1968, Jones became a disciple of Rudi's Indian teacher Swami Muktananda, whom he visited in India, and, he wrote, gave him extraordinary spiritual experiences.
For approximately one year, in 1968–1969, Adi Da was involved with Scientology[7] (mention of which was omitted from subsequent versions of his autobiography, which say that during this period he did not meditate, but "simply listened"[8]). He returned to India in 1969 to see Muktananda, who subsequently gave Adi Da a letter acknowledging his yogic realization and authorizing him to initiate others into the Siddha Yoga tradition of meditation (this letter can be read here: [8] and a photograph of this hand-written letter can be viewed here: [9].
Adi Da (then still Franklin Jones) founded his own group in April 1972, operating out of a bookstore in Los Angeles, California. Initially known as the Dawn Horse Communion, the movement founded by Adi Da has been through several name changes: previous names have included The Free Primitive Church of Divine Communion, The Johannine Daist Communion, and Free Daism. It is now known as Adidam, or The Way of the Heart.[9]Adi Da formally left Muktananda after a meeting in India in 1973, where Adi Da and Muktananda differed irrevocably on the nature of full enlightenment, which Jones claimed he'd achieved while Muktananda had not.[citation needed]
In 1974, Adi Da and his followers established a residential community in Northern California called Persimmon, which became the center of their organization. In 1983, the group purchased an estate on the island of Naitauba, Fiji, which became the center of Adidam's activities as well as Adi Da's residence.[10]
Adi Da frequently changed his name, which he asserted reflected changes in his teaching. As a student of Muktananda, he was given the name Dhyanananda. Shortly after declaring himself an independent teacher, he adopted the name Bubba Free John. In 1978, he changed this to Da Free John. Subsequent names included Da Love-Ananda, Da Kalki, Da Avabhasa, and finally the Ruchira Avatar, Adi Da Samraj, literally "the radiant avatar, primordial giver, universal ruler". His followers frequently refer to him simply as "Beloved".[11]
Notes
7 Jones, Franklin Albert, The Knee of Listening, (1972) Pg. 84 CSA Press, GA. ISBN 0-87707-093-8 [2]
8 The Knee of Listening: The Early-Life Ordeal and the Radical Spiritual Realization of the Divine World-Teacher, Adi Da (The Da Avatar). New Standard Edition, popular format: 9/95). ISBN 1-57097-023-8
9 Lewis, 2001, pg. 215
10 Lewis, 2001, pg. 217
11 Feuerstein, Remembrance Of The Divine Names of Da, 1982
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Da Free John can be distinguished from great individuals like Christ and Buddha, and more recently Ramana Maharshi, Nityananda, and Sri Aurobindo and the Mother in that they really are - even in their psychophysical personalities - great Realisers, who have integrally realised the Supreme, and serve as pure expressions and Incarnations (avatars) of the Supreme, whereas Da himself, although attaininga high state of realisation and enlightenment, at the same time retains his lower passions and addictions, and so (it would seem, but again I would emphasise I am only presenting one point of view, and otehrs are equally valid) never made the Psychic (evolutionary Higher Self) conversion. He is like a high voltage current flowing through a wire that isn't strong enough to contain it, and in the end the tiny little Franklin Jones, that insignificant speck (and in identifying with our egos we are all insignificant specks!!!) in the vast cosmos, claimed to be the one and only revelation, the Supreme Godhead. There is a useful word in psychology that describes this. It is "inflation". Inflation occurs whenever the tiny insignificant speck that is the ego identifies with a being or consciousness or force much greater than itself - an entity of the Intermediate Zone for example, or the Light of Spiritualisation (and there is a big overlap between these two latter in any case)
But Franklin Jones also has a real power, a power that flows through him. I refer to this power as the attractor. and it seems to be a characteristic of many charismatic gurus, something that is highly potent in, and perhaps indigenous to, the Intermediate zone. One finds it in Sai Baba, in Osho, Muktananda, Ken Wilber, it is a very common phenomenon. Even so, one needs to distinguish between the small human personality on the one hand, the intermediate zone attractor or occult charisma which is the source of the Spiritual Light that it itself distorts, on the other
Those who have met Da in person attest to his magnificent, magnetic presence. Even when he is drinking and smoking and screwing the wives of his male devotees, they still refer to that magnetic presence. This is the attractor. There are forces that seek to play with people or inflict suffering for their own amusement; there are foirces that lift up and inspire and help in spiritual development, and their are forces that, paradoxically, involve both contrary aspects, together, at the same time, without contradiction. And these latter are the most beguiling of all.
Here is the problem, the real danger, with the path of the Guru. It is the true path of bhakti, of absolute devotion. The guru takes the role of God, because the Guru - the True Guru - is God, as in the immortal tale of Krishna and Arjuna in the Gita. Thus the Guru is a gateway for the devotee to become one with the Supreme, the same Supreme, in the form of Light and Power and Infinite Love, that manifests through the Guru.
But when the Guru has not yet purified his or her personal nature, as is most often the case, the Light, even if genuine (as it often may be), is distorted through the Intermediate zone. Then things can be very dangerous, because the lower heavy passions and greeds bring in negative occult forces, and people - sincere devotees trusting and dedicating their all - are emotionally and even physically destroyed. The human wreckage in the trail of ambiguous gurus who try to appropriate this Light for themself (but are themselves enslaved by it), the so called crazy wisdom adepts with genuine powers and realisations but incomplete enlightenment and uncontrolled desires, attests to how dangerous it can be to get close to people like this.
As always in these matters, it is upto the seeker to listen with sincerity and humility to the still small voice within, and let themself be guided by that. Then they will know the true guru, and if they need an authentic guru they will be led to one. And if it is necessary for their spiritual development to have an IZ Guru, they will led to one, and will benefit from the positive and good things the Intermediate zone has to offer. But make sure that you don't listen to your ego or neuroses or superficuial pull of your surface nature towards the atrtractor behind an ambigious guru.
http://www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/Da.htm
(http://www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/adi-da-lbcvr-l.jpg)
Funny, how much he resembles Yoda. Or is it that Yoda resembles Adi Da??
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But when the Guru has not yet purified his or her personal nature, as is most often the case, the Light, even if genuine (as it often may be), is distorted through the Intermediate zone. Then things can be very dangerous, because the lower heavy passions and greeds bring in negative occult forces, and people - sincere devotees trusting and dedicating their all - are emotionally and even physically destroyed. The human wreckage in the trail of ambiguous gurus who try to appropriate this Light for themself (but are themselves enslaved by it), the so called crazy wisdom adepts with genuine powers and realisations but incomplete enlightenment and uncontrolled desires, attests to how dangerous it can be to get close to people like this.
Yes this mix of genuine light and unresolved personal wounds are common among newbies and in New Age occultism. They have a little amplifier but when turning it on it plays the wrong tracks. With the aim to seek the light many turn in the door of the School when they realize that it is all about their work on their selves, and no "feeling good guru" around.
The "real" guru then of course has a huge amplifier and even a little dissonance in the system will be heard all over the place.
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The "real" guru then of course has a huge amplifier and even a little dissonance in the system will be heard all over the place.
;D
As always in these matters, it is upto the seeker to listen with sincerity and humility to the still small voice within, and let themself be guided by that. Then they will know the true guru, and if they need an authentic guru they will be led to one.
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Lori, hate to do this but I gotta agree with them on this per adi da. He has huge controversies surrounding him. Also, I'd be concerned with anyone who had ties to any scientology (cause of the mind-control and hypnosis element).
wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Da#Controversies
"There are allegations of abuse (financial, psychological, physical, and sexual) among former followers. In 1985 Adi Da and his movement were sued by a former member for (among other things) fraud, intentional infliction of emotional distress, false imprisonment, and assault and battery; the suit sought $5 million in damages.[6] Adidam then filed its own suit naming the former member and five others for abuse of process, extortion, breach of fiduciary duty and intentional infliction of emotional distress. The suit further charged that the six former members tried to deprive the movement of its "constitutionally protected rights to freedom of religion". Adidam sought $20 million in damages. [7]
Around the time of these lawsuits, Adi Da and Adidam (then known as Da Free John and The Johannine Daist Communion) were subjects of a report on The Today Show.[21] There, and in other media reports, ex-members were quoted as saying that Adi Da exhibited a pattern of psychologically, sexually and physically abusive behavior.
Adidam charged that these public allegations were part of a conspiracy to extort large sums of money from the movement. [7] Adidam said that the former members, (some of whom appeared on the Today show report)[21] "met several times to discuss, conspire and scheme to obtain extraordinary sums of money from Adidam under the threat of destroying the church".[7]
Local media also reported that an Adidam spokesman disclosed that despite previous denials, controversial sexual practices involving the guru had continued after 1976 but had been hidden from some members and the general public. [22] An Adidam official said that no illegal acts took place and the movement had a right to continue experiments in lifestyles. [23]
In 2005, the Washington Post reported: '"The lawsuits and threatened suits that dogged the group in the mid-1980s were settled with payments and confidentiality agreements", says a California lawyer, Ford Greene, who handled three such cases.'[5]"
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Theres also a crapload on here about sexual allegations:
http://www.adidaarchives.org/sex_violence_women.htm
"Adi Da (Da Free John) - sex with devotees, sexual abuse and assault, violence against women, and sexual issues in general in the Adidam cult
Editor's note: some of the items described below, and similar types of activity were discussed during live, in-person interviews with the media in 1985 by the individuals who personally participated in or observed these things. Please see the "'Media coverage of Da" page on this website for further information, in particular this post which cross references Adi Da incidents to news articles where they were discussed. "
That section has many links of interviews with women heres one of them:
http://www.adidaarchives.org/adi_da_sexual_consent.htm
Adi Da Samraj (Da Free John) and sex with devotees – was it consensual?
Posted by former devotee in 2007
What’s missing from your assessment of what Adi Da did with and to women is an appreciation of the context in which it occurred. And that context varied dramatically from case to case.
There were obviously sexual encounters between Adi Da and his devotees that were consensual, out of the hundreds that have occurred. Among those consensual couplings one would surely find examples of every kind of motivation imaginable on both the woman’s part and Adi Da’s as well. Some women were attracted by Adi Da’s power, others sought the attention, acknowledgment, and bump in status within the Adidam community that sex with Adi Da would bring, and others sought spiritual initiation or an opportunity to overcome neurosis or dysfunction through sex with the God-Man. Probably, some women just wanted to have sex. As for Adi Da, his obsessive quest for more and different kinds of sexual gratification knew no boundaries over the years. As both a voyeur and participant, there seems to have been little ground he didn’t cover in the sexual arena, with a ready supply of new female members streaming into Adidam just ripe for the pickin’.
To accept the idea that all of these activities were a form of Adi Da’s selfless spiritual teaching for the sake of devotees would be naïve and absurd in the extreme. However, that’s exactly what he claims. According to him, in all of this he was merely reflecting his devotees’ weaknesses and obsessions back to them in order to help free them from the egoic patterns and attachments that were holding them back from growing spiritually.
However, it should be very obvious to anyone not entangled in Adi Da’s mythology that more likely he has just been exploiting his status as an “enlightened God Man” to seduce large numbers of women that were otherwise out of his league. This might not be criminal in most cases, but I would say it’s incredibly irresponsible and completely inappropriate for one who claims to be a spiritual teacher. It is deceitful. It is also inconsistent with any claim by Adi Da to have himself “transcended” obsessive sexual fixation as the first perfectly enlightened human being in the history of this planet. His endless search for sexual adventure, just like his obsessive personal use of poppers (amyl nitrate) doesn’t square up with his teachings about regenerative sex practice or with the idea that he was doing anything different than just getting himself off and in the process using sex to establish his dominance over everyone.
Apart from the cases of consensual sex with the motivations described above, there were many situations (perhaps most) where any so-called “consent” for sex was coerced or obtained under false pretenses. There are two slightly different aspects of this coercion that are worth mentioning. One is the exploitation of the implicit imbalance in power and influence that Adi Da had over devotees, akin to what a therapist has over a patient or a parent over a child, except all the more exaggerated since he was God Incarnate. Secondly, many women performed the sexual acts Adi Da commanded them to perform only because they believed that doing so was a requirement of their spiritual practice, or a means to transcend egoic attachments or neuroses, or perhaps an opportunity for tantric initiation. When many of the women later figured out that they were misled, of course many of them became extremely upset.
The account by Connie Shaw of her friend’s surprise anal sex with Adi Da that was posted to the Lightmind website is a good example of this. That post does an excellent job capturing the typical mind-set of a devotee living a rigid and disciplined life who has been idolizing an idealized image of the “enlightened Master” from a distance and is completely in awe of him. Suddenly the devotee is pulled into an unexpected and dissonant situation that is exploited by Adi Da, who has sex with her on the spot. That example is demonstrative of coercion or deceit when considered in the context in which it occurred, and I hardly consider the encounter “consensual” in the fullest sense of the word. You need to look at the mind-set of the devotee in this and all similar situations to evaluate what was going on. You also need to consider the time period of the event and what peoples’ expectations about Adi Da and the nature of the practice were, since all of this changed and went through extreme cycles over the years.
Adi Da was clearly abusive in some of these encounters, and at a minimum extremely insensitive in others. Once again, there is a full spectrum of behavior by Adi Da and all kinds of varying results experienced by the devotee. I can tell you that for some of my women friends, the results of Adi Da’s “teaching work” on their private parts have been confusion, injury, and disturbance that clearly did not serve them well. And let’s not forget the diseases that Adi Da spread, either.
In addition to the scenarios where the victim's "consent" was obtained because they bought into Adi Da’s deceptive mythology, he also used plenty of good old-fashioned bullying, yelling and brute force to have his way with women. Did the women Adi Da raped or beat up or whose hair he ripped out of their heads give their "consent"? Yes, I said raped. Read the posts by Conrad Goehausen, who talked in depth to a guy who together with Adi Da raped a woman who was begging and screaming at them to stop, and who also talked to the victim, who is still in Adidam. So, Conrad confirmed the event with both the victim and with Adi Da’s co-perpetrator. There is no way I can accept these as consensual activities. What's really sick, though, is that some of the women who were treated this way have blamed themselves, saying that they “deserved” the treatment they got, or even that it benefitted them as a form of spiritual instruction. For those who still worship Adi Da as God, how else can they interpret what happened? The mental virus of the Adi Da mythology runs very deep for the people who are closest to him. Then again, they would not the first battered women in the world to defend their abusers.
If you look at the history of Adi Da's sexual theater (or any other dimension of interaction) with his followers, a couple of other observations about his so-called crazy wisdom approach become apparent. First, it is obvious that he generally lacks skill and sensitivity in his teaching interactions with followers. He does not typically exhibit "skillful means" in dealing with others. Therefore, he gets bad results and hurts people, generating all kinds of negative fallout in the form of disillusioned former devotees and a huge fallout rate for membership in Adidam. So much of what he has done in the name of spiritual teaching is just foolish and ineffective, regardless of whatever else one might say about him.
Secondly, Da displays a pattern of reckless or careless indifference to the impact of his actions on those he claims to be teaching. He is all too willing to create disastrous effects in the lives and emotions of others, and then rarely attempts to help people work through the resulting mess he made for them. If his actions were really intended as a form of teaching, rather than a reflection of his own tendencies, he would at a minimum want to know what kind of effects he was creating for people. Even if he were utterly inept at teaching, but was in fact teaching, this would be true. However, his obvious indifference in most cases, or perverse pleasure in the suffering of others on some occasions, shows that most of his activities have nothing to do with teaching at all. They are just an expression of his own personality, wrapped up in the business of playing God, and an exaggeration of all that is good and bad in him.
A good example of this was the situation many of us know about when Adi Da told D.G. to perform oral sex on three of his friends. She was uptight about oral sex due to having been forced to perform it on an adult neighbor when still a child. After the three blowjobs in a row were performed, Adi Da himself had sex with D.G. and told her to leave his house. She had to sleep in a car in a parking lot and cried all night, and Adi Da never followed up with her to see what the impact of his actions were. How is it teaching to have sex with a scared and trembling woman, then throw her out of the house and never speak to her again? Adi Da was not failing at teaching people in situations like these, he wasn’t even trying to teach them. He was just entertaining and gratifying himself and enjoying the immense power over others than only God-Man status could bring.
Perhaps the most important question that can be asked about Adi Da's crazy wisdom activities is how effective has it been in transforming the lives of devotees and the world as a whole? Has it produced the intended effects in terms of spiritual growth and enlightenment for those involved? Where are the enlightened and transformed devotees who have benefited from 30 plus years of association with this powerful God-Man and what are they doing now? After all this time we still don't see boatloads of radically transformed beings, or even any at all -- at least none that are visible to an observer on the outside. People in Adi Da's group have just aged and mellowed a bit, stuck in a dependent relationship to a man who has limited them, rather than liberated them.
What is the rationale whereby the "shock therapy" of crazy wisdom produces self-transcending wisdom and awakening to the Consciousness that lives and breathes everyone and everything? Can one really "force" another out of identification with the ego by disrupting their life, causing them to indulge themselves in sex, alcohol, and drugs, and berating and humiliating them? Where do we draw the line on what is acceptable behavior to impart upon others "for their own good?" If beating up a woman and bruising her face helps to enlighten her, then what about breaking her legs? Where does it stop, and who decides this? And how does Adi Da's own self-indulgent and neurotic behavior, carried out in private, serve to awaken others to Truth, even when this behavior is hidden from them? This is something I’ve never heard him or anyone else address.
I think that all devotees and former devotees need to realize that this consideration of Adi Da’s motivations and effectiveness is really more universal and general than just examining incidents involving sex. Those of us who were sincere in our approach and who became deeply involved with Adi Da were just like Connie’s friend in one way or another. Even though we didn’t all have sex with him, the basic interaction was the same. We were all exploited in one way or another. The innocent hope and great awe that we approached Adi Da with was twisted and stolen by this self-centered sociopath to serve his own interests.
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Ex wife story:
http://www.adidaarchives.org/ex_wife_abusive_sex.htm
Ex-wife's description of Adi Da's Abusive and Voyeuristic Sex, Porno films, Coke bottle dildo, violence against women
Posted by "Alice", an ex-"wife" of Adi Da on 9-12-1999 to the Lightgate Daism Forum
I was a so-called "ex-wife" of Franklin Jones. I have provided proof of who I am and irrefutable photographic evidence of my person as also found on published cult records. I prefer anonymity as do male and female victims of rape and sex crimes. Under strict confidentiality, I have fully disclosed all details of my identity with the webmaster at Impermanence (Elias) including an earlier meeting with him in person. If there will be any legal question as to the veracity of my statement, I will provide written sworn testimony in a court of law to protect the owner of this web-site and possibly bring in corroborating witness if called for. These witnesses would be other "ex-wives" whose true stories have been denied by the Franklin Jones cult. I speak so others may learn the facts and not waste years of being deceived.
I spoke to members of the cult before leaving. People who were supposedly my friends for years turned their backs on me. I brought out the dichotomy between what Franklin Jones said and what he did. I told people I was there at the center and saw everything. People, who had no real contact of their own, said that he had his own reasons and ascribed everything to "crazy wisdom" or "theater." Their reaction made me see more of his scientology like manipulation and brain washing. People seemed to be in a trance. I found it amazing that people would not hear from somebody who was there and not be emotionally struck. They did not question anything. They tried to deny what I was saying, stories that had happened to me. They were deaf. They had learned to hear what they wanted to hear. There are much worse stories than mine.
I found it interesting that Franklin Jones' background is in the areas of Scientology, acting, Christian Seminary and Hinduism. He mystifies people with his charisma and acting skills. He manipulates people with his Scientology background. He lays guilt on people with his Christianity and entices the New Age mind with Hinduism. He is a Scorpio who has gone sour.. The downfall of that sign is sex and power. Franklin Jones is neurotically involved with greed for sex and power. He weeds out everyone that is not a yes person. There are many channels along the line. There are many gates to go through to make sure you are a yes person. He wants you to relate to one aspect of him only. As a writer and an actor, he gets to relate to many aspects of who you are.
I have seen women humiliated emotionally and sexually including having their genitals wounded. I saw him put a coke bottle in a woman's vagina and the bottle broke. He made another woman take a vodka enema. I have also seen him pull handfuls of hair out of Nina Jones' head. Whatever he does is called a teaching even giving Nina a black eye. Da is a user. He is abusive and manipulative.
In summary, he cares for his own pleasure and amusement and is full of humiliation and inconsideration. All this is observable up close.
For myself and other "ex-wives", we directly experienced this humiliation which served as amusement and entertainment for Franklin Jones’ pleasure. I had to give him blow-jobs while he was orchestrating and producing porno films being made of other people having sex with one another. Franklin Jones would also arrange or order different people to have sex with each other. This could be one of his "wives" who he accused of having feelings for someone else. He would have them make sex and pull me in to perform oral sex on him while he watched. Franklin Jones would not want me to watch at all. He would roughly pull my head down on him. He was a rough lover. He would rip into you without lubrication. He was inconsiderate and unfeeling. You didn’t matter. Franklin Jones in relationship was more cruel than apathetic.
I do not say that he was always this way with every one of his "ex-wives". There may have been some exceptions. As a rule, Franklin Jones behavior was generally cruel and often sadistic with many of the women in his cult. There is no question of this. He treated women like chattel. I was involved and personally witnessed these things at parties and in his home. Franklin Jones is not as he appears to be.
Posted by "Alice", an ex-wife of Adi Da on 9-12-1999 to Lightgate Daism Forum
(Editor: This post below is a follow-up to the original post that appears above. Some posters had asked if the sexual experiences with Adi Da were a form of spiritual initiation, and others wanted more extensive details of the incidents.)
Please understand that I do not intend to further dialogue on my report.
I wish to add that there were no magical powers or "siddhi" involved in the (see above) account. I can further state that Franklin Jones as a sex partner was mechanical and lacked feeling.
I have seen examples of magical yogic siddhi in other ways. These are elsewhere reported. They can be discussed in different ways. I am addressing something different.
In my report, I think it is important for others to see that his motives are narcissistic. Franklin Jones is self-serving. He attends to his voyeuristic neuroses. He lacks compassion for others in blindly serving his needs. I see Franklin Jones as a magician. I do not see him as a selfless spiritual master.
A Franklin Jones student responded by declaring my account to be superficial. I have little interest in discussing it in depth. That is how it is. The account is intended to show an essence of a man. Here is a man who commands his wives to have sex with his pals while he makes pornographic movies of the event. He is voyeuristically stimulated by watching others engaged in sexual activity. He calls in other women to stimulate him while he watches. I am not supplying more information. Ask Franklin Jones.
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Damn all I can say to that is good riddance, im glad his ass is dead.
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Damn all I can say to that is good riddance, im glad his ass is dead.
???
I do know he is controversial. But as for the allegations, nobody can ever know for sure. Hearsay and all that. ::)
What I do know is that I have been reading some of his stuff and have found some great insights. I do like his ideas and energy. Sure some of his messages are self important. Many religious leaders are if you ask me. However, his personal life is of no interest to me. Also what he does in his bedroom is none of my business, coke bottle dildos included.
And, no worries, y'all. I am not planning on joining any cult of Adi Da, JC or anyone else for that matter.
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Oh I know - I know you're not looking at following him or anything like that. It might even be good timing per things - spawn a difft topic - just cause we all have to be careful esp in this day and age of false gurus and the like. Unfortunately they're everywhere - and of course Lori, they'll give these good messages as a hook - but seriously, when you see that many allegations - they cant all be lying. I could see one or two disgruntles, but several like that? something wrong. eek.
???
Well, I dunno as for the allegations, nobody can ever know for sure.
What I do know is that I have been reading some of his stuff and have found some great insights. I do like his ideas and energy. Sure some of his messages are self important. Many religious leaders are if you ask me. However, his personal life is of no interest to me. Also what he does in his bedroom really is none of my business, coke bottle dildos included.
And, no worries, y'all. I am not planning on joining any cult of Adi Da, JC or anyone else for that matter.
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And even kids:
http://www.adidaarchives.org/mv_record_4-10-85.htm
Mill Valley Record
Sexual experiments continued after '76,
JDC officiaIs admit
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 10,1985
by Peter Seidman
Officials of the San Rafael based religious sect led by Da Free John told local followers Sunday that "sexual experimentation" within the church did not end in 1976, as the church had previously maintained.
The admission came during a meeting of about 300 members of the Johannine Daist Communion. Sources close to the church told The Record that at least some members were shocked by the news.
Until Sunday, the church had said that during a short period in 1976 some church members had engaged in "sexual experiments" as part of their religious teachings.
Reports of sexual abuse within the church first appeared in The Record last week. In response to those reports the church prepared an open letter that was delivered late Monday.
According to the statement:
"We understand our way of life is an ongoing spiritual experiment in which we constantly consider and discover what will best serve our spiritual evolution. For this reason we value the period of liberal experimentation with various lifestyles in the early years of our existence. It was a time full of learning, growth, and spiritual celebration. It was a happy and foolish time."
The statement also says that the period of experimentation "occurred within the context of selfunderstanding and with a view of developing life conducive to spiritual growth as individuals and as a community."
During interviews with The Record, church officials had resolutely maintained that the sexual experimentation ended in 1976.
At least some disaffected former members, however, said that drug use and sexual assaults allegedly have taken place within the church community as late as 1984.
The admission Sunday by church officials corroborates at least in part some of the allegations The Record printed last week.
Crane Kirkbride, speaking for the church, said Monday that there "have been incidents up to the fairly recent past." Kirkbride also said that no illegal acts took place and the church has a right to continue experiments in lifestyles.
In the course of a lengthy investigation, many former members of the church told The Record that part of the experimentation included humiliating sexual activities they were asked to perform in front of Da Free John and some of his "inner circle."
Church officials have said they withheld information about the sexual activities because lowerlevel members and the general public would misunderstand the relationship between the activities and the church's teaching.
Members of the religious sect call the sexual experimentation "spiritual theater." The purpose of the program, church officials said, is to shock people out of everyday complacency and into a higher spiritual state.
But some former members allege that the "spiritual theater" was and continues to be a form of sexual coercion for the benefit of some individual church members.
Until the announcement Sunday that the sexual practices had continued after 1976, most members of the sect, whose guru lives on a Fijian island, knew little or nothing about the activities in the higherlevels of the organization.
One former member alleged that she was sexually assaulted by Da Free John while some followers watched. She also alleged that he told another women to sexually assault her while she was held down by three women.
She said she left the church shortly after the incident.
But other, loyal followers have told The Record that they experienced no such incidents during their years in the church.
One former member, who identified himself as "Richard," said he was a member for about four years. "My experience was quite positive," he said.
Another former member, Dennis Nagel, said he never experienced any of the alleged sexual abuse that has come to light in recent reports.
An example of the church's "spiritual theater" was revealed to The Record last week by a former member who said she had suffered emotional pain during one of the churchsanctioned "sexual experiments."
The woman told a Record reporter that, as a child, she had been sexually abused by a neighbor. The incident left deep emotional wounds, she said. While at the church's 600 acre retreat in Lake County in 1976, Da Free John told her to perform oral sex with three men, she said. She was then told to have sex with the guru himself, which she did.
"I was traumatized," she said.
According to sources close to the church, the incident was used Sunday by church officials to explain the benefit of "spiritual theater. "
The officials told their assembled flock that the woman had benefited from the experience.
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Oh I know - I know you're not looking at following him or anything like that. It might even be good timing per things - spawn a difft topic - just cause we all have to be careful esp in this day and age of false gurus and the like. Unfortunately they're everywhere - and of course Lori, they'll give these good messages as a hook - but seriously, when you see that many allegations - they cant all be lying. I could see one or two disgruntles, but several like that? something wrong. eek.
Yeah I understand your point. I'm just saying that what he may or may not have done is of no interest to me. Let's say we found out that CC was a pimp on the side, and sold the witches to tourists, does that change at all what he had to say? If I can find some little gems in his writings then I think that's cool. Ya know?
Of course I do not condone using children for sexual gratification or physical or mental abuse of anyone. If that is what happened, if he took part in these sorts of activities, karma will have a lot to say (and do) on these matters.
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Yeah I understand your point. I'm just saying that what he may or may not have done is of no interest to me. Let's say we found out that CC was a pimp on the side, and sold the witches to tourists, does that change at all what he had to say? If I can find some little gems in his writings then I think that's cool. Ya know?
Well lets do this instead of change that. We know a bit about toward the end, a bit of Carlos's relationship to the Witches, which is a good example. IMPO - whilst them disappearing (in all likelihood they committed suicide in Death Valley, cause they found the Blue Scout there), Carlos's little circle of women was rather small, and even Amy Wallace's accounts in The Sorcerer's Apprentice, showed Carlos not to be of the level of abuse as Adi Da and his cronies - but sure, he had sex with the Witches and Amy. However, I have my own views on Amy and her issues cause she really made herself out to be some victim of Carlos and the Witches which she was not. He did not do any level of brainwashing and tactics to the level of others. But no, Carlos wasnt impeccable and at most in his old age was a horny old man. But nothing to the magnitude of Adi Da, so his dealings with the Witches werent to the magnitude and there is validity to practices they did. And then the other issue is sexuality and spirituality - there is validity in certain practices and places for it. I am not against it and not all are meant to be monks; however, great deal of misinformation in where it may have its place or not, and when it is 'sacred' or not, or anything which has to do with spiritual growth or not. Which I can probably delve into in another arena or place, esp when society and cultures may find this issue 'dirty' when you mix spirituality and sexuality - which that is not so. I suppose its like how one swings a sword - same deal. But the issues with adi da and exploits, which its certainly not the only story out there of self-annointed gurus and their victims - there is a too far and there is straight up indulgence which will reveal them the frauds they are. So per the messages, I still have to consider the source, and per this source I dont even think he believed the things he was saying when it came to spirituality. If he said 'you can get enlightenment if I break a coke bottle off in you" hed have had far less women in his spiritual circle, so of course he wasnt going to reveal what a pervert he was on the outer.
Of course I do not condone using children for sexual gratification or physical or mental abuse of anyone. If that is what happened, if he took part in these sorts of activities, karma will have a lot to say (and do) on these matters.
Well its pretty obvious that per karma, if one say gets a serious responsibility and he probably did get some various abilities and so forth along the way, one can still achieve spiritual gains but if they exploit others with them - then its pretty much a given they really knocked themselves down many notches and will really have a hell of a time crawling out of the hole they dug for themselves on that one.
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Not discounting any of the allegations but as I was saying, I enjoy many of his articles and talks. Here is a good one imo:
The Peace Law: An Open Letter
To the Entire Human Family
from Avatar Adi Da Samraj
My beloved every one,
I Offer the Communication in this Letter out of Compassion and Love for all human beings and for the entire world.
This is the moment of truth for humankind. Critical choices must now be made, in order to protect the continued existence of human society and of the Earth itself.
This letter is a Call to righten the collective moral disposition of humanity, and to establish a truly cooperative global human community on that basis.
In this Message to all, I call upon the leaders and educators of humankind to actively embrace, and to universally declare and promote, and to actively require the universal real fulfillment of the simplest Law and Measure of humankind, which I have stated in the form: "Cooperation + Tolerance = Peace". The acceptance of this Law as a universal discipline is the basis for (progressively) resolving the current plight of humankind.
I. Why War Must No Longer Be Allowed
Until the twentieth century, the destructive potential of war, though great, was (nevertheless) limited. There was a limit to the number of governments that had access to the most powerful weapons, there was a limit to the destructive potential of those weapons, and there was a limit on the geographic range over which such weapons could be exercised. Therefore, the violence and devastation of war, though horrific, was nevertheless (to some degree) contained.
Since the mid-twentieth century, the previous restrictions on the destructive potential of war have ceased to be the case. The ability to manufacture or obtain technologically sophisticated weaponry (whether nuclear, chemical, or biological) is no longer limited to the few, to the governments of the wealthiest and most powerful nations. Indeed, such weapons can potentially be obtained even by small groups of people determined to further their own particular agendas, at whatever cost. And the destructive potential of existing weaponry is now sufficient to cause unimaginable devastation. Thus, humanity is faced with two new and dangerous realities: The number of parties with relatively easy access to extreme weapons of war is proliferating rapidly, and the destructive power of those weapons is virtually unlimited.
In the past, it was only the "superpowers" that had the most destructive weapons. Thus, there was a time when it was plausible for a superpower to presume that, by using conventional weaponry, it could keep outbreaks of armed violence under control, at least to a "satisfactory" degree. However, that time has passed.
When sophisticated weapons of mass destruction are in the hands of many, war (and even armed conflict altogether) ceases to be something that can be "won". The governments of the world are, in general, acting as if they do not understand or accept this current reality. Since the twentieth-century, war itself has become a threat to all of humankind—not merely to the parties directly involved in any particular conflict. Therefore, just as slavery came to be recognized as inhumane and (thus) unacceptable, so also war must be made obsolete and no longer to be allowed. War is a past way of doing things that no longer makes sense and can no longer be accepted as an appropriate instrument of policy in the modern world.
It may seem naive and idealistic to say that war must no longer be allowed, but this call for the eradication of war is, in fact, a necessary response to two basic realities: (1) the vastly increased availability of the weapons of mass destruction and (2) the ego-based (or self-centered) nature of the un-Enlightened human being. Given these realities, war must no longer be allowed as an option—the risk involved is far too great.
Therefore, in order to ensure its own survival, the human family must collectively make the choice to refuse and repudiate all acts of war. When that refusal and repudiation occurs, the governments of the world (and even military oriented "interest groups" of all kinds) can be collectively called upon to reject the very possibility of waging war. And , in order to hasten that collective rejection of war, people everywhere, and (particularly) leaders in all fields of human endeavor, must join in speaking this warning: War simply must be ended now—before it destroys humanity and the Earth itself.
II. The Root of War
The un-Enlightened human individual is in a state of constant concern for his or her self-preservation (even though this concern may not always be conscious). This self-based, (or egoic) pattern (or orientation toward existence) is manifested as the psychology of search and conflict relative to all that is presumed to be "not-self". Thus, human beings are inherently disposed to control and dominate all that they presume to be "not-self". For this reason, individual egocentric lives are a constant expression of fear, sorrow, anger, and un-love. Except for the greatest saints and sages, every individual—whether "leader" or "follower"—is controlled by this egoic pattern. And the collective life of egocentric human beings (expressed in organized groups of all kinds, including governments) is dominated by the same motives toward self-preservation and toward control of what is "outside"—leading to the collective expression of fear, sorrow, anger, and un-love.
Mankind, indoctrinated by materialistic philosophies, ego-serving technologies, and gross political idealisms is possessed by the mechanical and emotionally negative efforts of self-indulgence (and anxious release-seeking efforts of all kinds), and chronically depressed by the frustration of the Spiritual and Divine impulses that are the inherent characteristics of the heart of every living being. The ego-'I', whether individual or collective, is eventually reduced to sorrow and despair, because of (and as an experiential result of) the inability of life (in and of itself) to generate Happiness and Joy and Immortality. And that self-contained depression finally becomes anger, or loveless confrontation with the total world and every form of presumed 'not-self '—by means of conventional (or merely exoteric) ideas of 'God Apart', and is (thereby) made into an 'Other' by the egoic mind. And, when anger becomes the mood of human societies, the quality of fire (or the primitive and destructive intent of the frustrated ego) invades the plane of humanity. That fire is expressed as all of the aggression and competitiveness (and all of the resultant sufferings and painful illusions) of mankind, including all of the ego-based politics of confrontation. And that ego-fire is, finally, summarized in the acts of war."
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Lori, you like Ken Wilbur, right? He wrote this on 10-11-96 about Adi Da.
What im trying to understand is this - now I know, what you're doing - youve got a serious shift at being able to see the 'good' in folks, and its got an innocence and I respect that. Still, adi da is basically a group rapist and other things. With seeing that, how can you continue to post him? Im honestly, sincerely, trying to understand. Cause say I found out dalai lama had done many horrible things to women? Id renounce anything to do with, or even read, or anything at all.
Anyway, Ken Wilbur speaks.
The Case of Adi Da (Da Free John)
Written by Ken Wilber on Oct. 11, 1996
http://www.adidaarchives.org/wilber_da_1996.htm
The last positive statement I made about Da's work was in 1985, when I wrote a very strong endorsement for his major book, The Dawn Horse Testament. This is one of the very greatest spiritual treatises, comparable in scope and depth to any of the truly classic religious texts. I still believe that, and I challenge anybody to argue that specific assessment.
The teaching is one thing, the teacher, quite another. By this time (around 1985), things were starting to become very problematic for Da, his personal life, his community, and his teaching in the world. In ways that we are just beginning to understand, some types of spiritual development can run way ahead of moral, social, interpersonal, and wisdom development in general. Da is capable of some truly exquisite insights, but in other areas, he has fared less well, and this has increasingly verged on the catastrophic.
It is always sad to see such promise run aground on the rocks of personality problems. As this was becoming increasingly obvious to even his most appreciative students, including me, I did an interview with Yoga Journal (September/Octobers 1987). In that interview, I made my very last public statement about Da. For the next decade, I would publicly say nothing about him whatsoever (until now). Thus, for the last ten years, here has been my official stance these are the last sentences of that statement:
“[Da] makes a lot of mistakes. These are immediately reinterpreted as great teaching events, which is silly. And then he gets mad and frustrated and goes into sort of a divine pout ...…. Because of these and other difficulties, he has holed up in Fiji, become very isolated and cut off, which I think could be disastrous, for him and for the community. The entire situation has become very problematic. It's real hard to get happy about what's going on.”
“Problematic” was the euphemism that sociologists at that time were using for Jonestown. Although few think Da will slide that far, nonetheless, his entire teaching work has indeed become problematic. The great difficulty is that, no matter how "enlightened" you might be, it take s a certain amount of practical wisdom to gauge the effects of your teaching work on the world at large. Crazy wisdom might (or might not) be fine for a few very close and longtime devotees. But it is disastrous when done as a large scale social experiment, which Da did, especially during the “Garbage and the Goddess” period. Anybody who could not see how that experiment would be perceived by the world is simply a damn fool. And an enlightened damn fool is even more culpable.
Those events sealed Da's fate in today's world. His teaching work is effectively ended for all but a small handful. And he will never be able to teach in this country, or virtually anywhere else, either, because his past will follow him. It is altogether sad, then, to see him continue to announce that he is the World Teacher. He won't even venture out in to the world! He hides in Fiji, away from the glare, away from the world, away from the truth at large. And he calls us to his little island kingdom, there to save the world. This verges on the grotesque.
Is there any chance that Da can rehabilitate himself? His claim, of course, is that he is the most enlightened person in the history of the planet. Just for argument, let us agree. But then what would the most enlightened World Teacher in history actually do in the world? Hide? Avoid? Run? Or would that teacher engage the world, step into the arena of dialogue, meet with other religious teachers and adepts, attempt to start a universal dialogue that would test his truths in the fire of the circle of those who could usefully challenge him. At the very least, a person who claims to be the World Teacher needs to get out in the world, no?
This doesn't mean Da would have to attend every conference, give hundreds of lectures, hit the talk-show circuit, etc. It simply means he would at the very least find ways to directly engage or at least meet!--some of the prominent leaders in the fields of religion, politics, science, and administration. As it is, he won't even meet with other leaders, such as the Dalai Lama, unless they become practicing members of his church! Hello?
To step out in that fashion requires moral courage. It requires a willingness to engage and respond. It demands a brave heart to stand forth and shine, not just to a few hundred in Fiji, but to an unbelieving world.
Until this happens, I can recommend to no one that they take up the isolationist practices of the Daist community.
At the same time, this should not prevent us from taking advantage of that part of Da which isn't broken, namely, his clear (if isolated) spiritual writings and insights. If nothing else, his written texts are still an extraordinary source of material. Even if you do nothing but disagree with them, you will at least see a stunning number of ideas and insights and methods, which you can check for yourself and see if they actually work or not. Nor should his personal problems negate these insights. Even if Einstein was a complete psychotic, E still equals mc2. Let us not deny the latter because of the former.
We await, then, the day that the World Teacher consents to enter the World. Until that time, it is perhaps best to watch from a safe distance, while availing yourself of those written texts that still manage to shine with a light of their own.
Ken Wilber
Oct. 11, 1996
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Now to add onto the story cause I knew about it. I have one of Ken's books and know about him, but he was somewhat a student at one time of Adi Das, gave him an endorsement, and then, when push came to shove, esp. the more Ken Wilber became more in the public eye, and many were asking him to make a statement of his past affiliation - Ken had to save his ass. So, he didnt wish to go back on his statements of Adi Das work, having merit, cause then he'd put a foot in his mouth on it. But personally looking at Ken's own work, which is quite different from Adi Das (and much cleaner - though Ive always felt Ken is really intellectual - however, for the intellectual spiritualist this is fine. He is an Aquarius so this is part of Ken's nature, which is cool for him). Regardless, the man still has good insights, but I dont think he's accomplished the great theory of everything task, though he may believe he has.
In looking at Adi Das work, say comparing Osho may come to mind. I dont personally believe Adi Da was an authentically enlightened being - he may have tapped on some valid things - but really didnt hit it. I do believe, however, Osho did. Osho, certainly had his controversies, but once again not to the magnitude of Adi Das. Plus, I believe toward the end, Osho began slipping into some psychosis, esp per his meditation techniques - he pushed himself too far - and also, per his management team, I think they took advantage of him, and doped him up a lot, which is the real reason the whole poisoning incident at the salad bar in Oregon took place. Osho was just something they were using themselves to stay in business. So they doped him up to keep the money flow going, and poisoned the folks at the salad bar per voting day, which got them in trouble. But still, Oshos work was still good, so I wont dump osho over the controversies. I think he just ended up getting used, and sure strayed something within, which of course begs the question if he was ever enlightened to begin with, since he had a 'fall,' but I believe that hes still a physical person who could be bound to mental illness. However, I do not believe osho was a psychopath like Adi da was. Adi da was extremely abusive.
Another thing too, per what ken wilbur said, true, dalai lama, Adi da wouldnt visit with him unless he joined his crew and became a member. Thats extremely arrogant and self important. Even Osho visited and met with the dalai lama and never requested such a thing.
Any way, its interesting regardless. The whole deal. Amazing how it all works. But anyway, certainly Ken wished to save himself; however, it also shows there was overwhelming evidence against adi da to begin with if he did that.
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Yeah I love Ken Wilber. I read that a little while ago, actually. Wilber has a lot to say on Adi da.
To answer this:
What im trying to understand is this - now I know, what you're doing - youve got a serious shift at being able to see the 'good' in folks, and its got an innocence and I respect that. Still, adi da is basically a group rapist and other things. With seeing that, how can you continue to post him? Im honestly, sincerely, trying to understand. Cause say I found out dalai lama had done many horrible things to women? Id renounce anything to do with, or even read, or anything at all.
Like I said, I am not endorsing or defending Adi Da, I just found some writings I like.
My mom always used to give me heck, for not holding people accountable for their actions, for separating the person from the behaviour. Maybe that's what I am doing now, but to me,a person is not his actions. I think the fact that he does have some pretty incredible messages of Peace and love posted speaks to the fact that he can not be all bad. I am not saying he isn't self important, that is quite evident in a lot of his writings, plain to see for sure.
Could he have mistreated, misled and lied to people? Of course it's possible. But it's not for me to judge. As it is not for me to judge whether the Dalai Lama has abused children, and runs some kind of weird underground cult as has also been alleged. How do we ever really know for sure?
I'll leave the judging to those who do it well while I prefer to concentrate on the messages of peace. If a good message comes from a questionable or misguided source, does it negate the message? I don't think so. I think a good message can stand on it's own. The message is what is important (to me).
Edit to add:
At the same time, this should not prevent us from taking advantage of that part of Da which isn't broken, namely, his clear (if isolated) spiritual writings and insights. If nothing else, his written texts are still an extraordinary source of material. Even if you do nothing but disagree with them, you will at least see a stunning number of ideas and insights and methods, which you can check for yourself and see if they actually work or not. Nor should his personal problems negate these insights. Even if Einstein was a complete psychotic, E still equals mc2. Let us not deny the latter because of the former.
Ken Wilber
Oct. 11, 1996
8)
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Lori, seriously, we are not our actions? The great philosopher Goethe said, "we become what we do." Now, for myself, I do honestly commend you, that you can see the good in folks, and their buddha nature, I can. Cause at the core, we all have goodness. And it may be debatable, if the core can be polluted. I believe it can be.
Now, lets just say, guru is a mirror. But guru comes and is like adi da. This is what I would do if somehow I landed in Fiji, and in some sexual theatre with his cronies, and they asked me to, have group sex while he filmed or watched, and showed me some coke bottle.
Firstly, I am not a monk. I am a warrior. And what I would do is this. I would, charge, adi da, grab his fat little ass, throw him to the ground, and start, kicking the shit outa him, and tell everyone to watch that. Then hed probably scream "thats whats wrong with you, you dont 'see yourself' clearly." I would, continue, to beat his ass, and say, "That may be right, but you're a disgrace, and have abused hundreds upon hundreds of women, in gods knows how many ways, and Im going to enjoy every single moment, of beating your ass." Then Id go find Montecore, who is that tiger who almost ate Roy Horn, on his birthday, at The Mirage hotel, and sic Montecore, on adi das ass, and watch him, tear him up, for all to see in the sexual theatre and I would laugh, and laugh and laugh. And I would feel really good about myself, and then, I would walk out laughing, and Montecore would walk out with adi das arm hanging from his mouth, gnawing on it, and I would call it a day, and be pleased.
Now, that may be so per mirror, but there is still, a fine line. I feel as a woman, as well as a serious person when it comes to spirituality, that such things are an abomination. And that, also, is my own nature when it comes to self-preservation.
So in seriousness, Im probably not as good that I can see the good and have to work on it. But... that, would be a very enjoyable experience for myself, if I had had the opportunity in my lifetime to have met adi da and been able to tell him what I thought about him. OM.
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Lori, seriously, we are not our actions? The great philosopher Goethe said, "we become what we do." Now, for myself, I do honestly commend you, that you can see the good in folks, and their buddha nature, I can. Cause at the core, we all have goodness. And it may be debatable, if the core can be polluted. I believe it can be.
Now, lets just say, guru is a mirror. But guru comes and is like adi da. This is what I would do if somehow I landed in Fiji, and in some sexual theatre with his cronies, and they asked me to, have group sex while he filmed or watched, and showed me some coke bottle.
Firstly, I am not a monk. I am a warrior. And what I would do is this. I would, charge, adi da, grab his fat little ass, throw him to the ground, and start, kicking the shit outa him, and tell everyone to watch that. Then hed probably scream "thats whats wrong with you, you dont 'see yourself' clearly." I would, continue, to beat his ass, and say, "That may be right, but you're a disgrace, and have abused hundreds upon hundreds of women, in gods knows how many ways, and Im going to enjoy every single moment, of beating your ass." Then Id go find Montecore, who is that tiger who almost ate Roy Horn, on his birthday, at The Mirage hotel, and sic Montecore, on adi das ass, and watch him, tear him up, for all to see in the sexual theatre and I would laugh, and laugh and laugh. And I would feel really good about myself, and then, I would walk out laughing, and Montecore would walk out with adi das arm hanging from his mouth, gnawing on it, and I would call it a day, and be pleased.
Now, that may be so per mirror, but there is still, a fine line. I feel as a woman, as well as a serious person when it comes to spirituality, that such things are an abomination. And that, also, is my own nature when it comes to self-preservation.
So in seriousness, Im probably not as good that I can see the good and have to work on it. But... that, would be a very enjoyable experience for myself, if I had had the opportunity in my lifetime to have met adi da and been able to tell him what I thought about him. OM.
What if, after all that, you found out he didn't do what he was accused of? What then?
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Then Montecore had a tasty snack, LOL
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In seriousness though Lori, lets say, allegations are true - then as adi da has left the world, somewhere, in a bardo, I guarantee you, a group of dakinis, have a coke bottle shoved up his ass, and he has to take all the pain he caused, and humiliation, and somewhere, a warrior woman such as myself, just stepped in and sic'd Montecore on him to eat his ass. Now, as he is 'there,' he will be put back together again, and it will happen again, until he gets a shot at birth, and is born as whatever, to have to repeat it over and over, til he can get it right and have a shot at responsibility, of enlightening himself, and potentially others, eons from now, in a far off galaxy, and maybe he can get it right then. Now though? I suspect, he's getting it, in a different way. That is called, karma.
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Of course and that's why I said it's up to karma to judge, not me.
In all fairness, there is negative publicity and shady allegations over just about any religion or religious leader. Even what's been called The Shadow side of the Dalai Lama. Buddhist voilence, Tibetan monks performing child abuse in monasteries, sexual abuse of child monks, tantric sex slaves, Buddhist Masters infecting disciples with AIDS, sorcery among monks -- the list goes on and on. ::)
Yet this doesn't change the fact that Buddhsim has helped a lot of folks advance on their path toward enlightenment. So, imo whatever helps is good. If Adi Da or Dalai Lama or Joe Regular from down the street helps even one person find their truth, far be it for me to stand in the way of that.
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"teaching", in the world of Action, is often best by example. Sometimes the example is how to be and do; at other times the example can be how to not be and not do.
"words", on the other hand, are often interpreted in the mind of those beholding them. I've seen many great bumper stickers that have, at that moment, made impact on my mind, without even knowing the source they came from. To deny "good words" because they come from a disputable source is kind of like accepting something without thinking, just because it comes from a reputably 'good' source.
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You know, believe it or not, I totally agree, and I was sincerely asking Lori about that, also cause of what she said here:
"As always in these matters, it is up to the seeker to listen with sincerity and humility to the still small voice within, and let themself be guided by that. Then they will know the true guru, and if they need an authentic guru they will be led to one."
Because for myself, I feel that regardless to the source, her own 'inner teacher' say, was seeing merit to what adi da said, which really is more reflective of her, than anything on him. But for myself, it can be difficult, if I do know something about the source, mind is going to really have a difficult time of dropping certain things like say, 'what is his agenda' or 'does he really believe what he is saying' and so forth. And lori is absolutely correct, which ill get to in a bit, that there is a shadow side, to anything, and I wouldnt necessarily say to the dalai lama (though certainly hes got to have one) but say tibetan buddhism. Such as stories of various Lamas gone bad. I mean we're human after all, and many can succumb to power as it can get out of control. It makes me wonder if every man does have a price - I try to not be one of those who could be bought for something. That of course, is one of the reasons for us to do the work, cause even like MM posted a snip from Crossroads - we all are gonna hit a crossroads at one point (at least I gather) and make a choice per an act of power, in who we become.
But certainly found wise things said in all sorts of sources, and at times cringed when found the source. Maybe main thing is just dont accidentally follow someone who says wise things and is really a wolf in sheeps clothing, all we can do.
Interesting though per some of the articles on there, one of the ex's mentioned Adi da was a scorpio, lol. I chuckled a bit on that one. Charisma and sex and death, just scorpio seems to go hand in hand at times lol.
"teaching", in the world of Action, is often best by example. Sometimes the example is how to be and do; at other times the example can be how to not be and not do.
"words", on the other hand, are often interpreted in the mind of those beholding them. I've seen many great bumper stickers that have, at that moment, made impact on my mind, without even knowing the source they came from. To deny "good words" because they come from a disputable source is kind of like accepting something without thinking, just because it comes from a reputably 'good' source.
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http://www.adidaarchives.org/yes_mrs_presky_wilber.htm
"Yes, Mrs. Presky" – a post inspired by Ken Wilber’s continued endorsement of Adi Da Samraj (Da Free John) and failure to denounce him despite acknowledging his problematic behavior. Clever closing invokes Firesign Theater bit.
Posted to Shambhala Ken Wilber Forum in 1998 (and revised)
As the millennium approaches, I find myself reflecting upon just how screwed up a lot of the search for eastern-style “enlightenment” in this country has proven itself to be. All of the phony gurus out selling themselves are a plague on society, of course, but what about the non-guru intellectuals who promote them? Among the leading proponents of the new age quest, there are those like Ken Wilber who no longer see any problem with a belief system that permits them to acknowledge someone as an enlightened spiritual adept even when that person is known to be blatantly abusive to himself and others.
Wilber thinks Adi Da's books are extraordinary works evidencing unprecedented spiritual development on the part of their author. Yet he gives no consideration to the possibility that Adi Da's teachings, largely borrowed from others, might be just a bunch of fanciful nonsense, or that they might reflect his broad knowledge base and creative talents rather than his own Divine Realization. Worse yet, Wilber rationalizes Adi Da’s problematic behavior by explaining it as a legitimate form of spiritual instruction, even when it’s totally out of line with basic human ethics and human responsibility. Wilber just doesn't get it.
Wilber is not by any means alone in his error. The highly esteemed Jack Kornfield dedicated his most recent book, “A Path with Heart” to Chogyam Trungpa, the Adi Da of Buddhism. Trungpa was notoriously abusive, and behaved in particularly disturbing ways when he got drunk, which he apparently did on a habitual basis. His out of control habits contributed to his premature death, and others following in his footsteps met similar fates. Of course, Trungpa wrote books that some consider deeply insightful, but interesting ideas don’t equate to spiritual maturity. To accept Trungpa as a spiritual realizer requires one to accept all kinds of rationalization for his lifestyle that fly in the face of the obvious.
What's wrong with these people like Wilber and Kornfield? Something is amiss. Something is mixed up. Their common sense goes AWOL in the presence of a person with charisma and a knack for expressing himself. There's a huge blind spot in these guys that keeps them from seeing the glaring failure of their whole version of “esoteric” spirituality. Why?
Their initial high hopes for eastern spirituality and gurus in the west, like many of ours, didn’t pan out quite as expected. We were all naïve in the beginning. But unlike those of us who didn’t make a career out of the spiritual search, they had a lot to lose if they admitted that they were mistaken, fooled, and misled. So instead, they just learned to put a different spin on what enlightenment looks like. They accepted the idea that it was possible to be a complete screw-up on a human level, yet at the same time be one of the most enlightened beings in history and be worthy of the devotion of spiritual aspirants.
They were willing to keep supporting the guru game and the search for eastern-style enlightenment, even though it wasn’t producing the results we all hoped for, and the “enlightened” gurus turned out to have feet of clay.
This is not particularly surprising, since these new age scholars, like the gurus, had carved out a niche for themselves where their egos were endlessly fed and they had achieved a certain level of notoriety. They were able to make a living talking and writing about transcending the ego, while their own egos just grew and grew. What better way to feel superior and important (while saying you’re not doing that), than to play the role of leaders and heralds of a new spiritual age. The whole trip is all about egotism run wild; that and the lust for power, the lust for fame, and the lust for approval -- all disguised as the revelation of truth and service to mankind.
The end game of their version of the search for enlightenment is a subjective, unobservable change in consciousness that they claim equates to ego-transcendence and awakening to “capital C” Consciousness, which is prized above all else in their belief system. And not only just "prized," but the ultimate and final source of Truth itself, a source that they themselves and an elite few have unique access to, with all of the attendant social status and power over others that this Divine access gives them.
How convenient for these gurus, whose livelihood depends upon their ability to seem enlightened to at least a small constituency, that the criteria and evidence for their realization are by their own definition elusive and essentially hidden from the view of those who are not also enlightened themselves. No need to transform observable behavior patterns, nor to worry about ethics or morality, or to live a successful and productive life. These changes are relegated to a lesser level of importance, and according to Wilber and his ilk are secondary to “transcendence” – which Wilber apparently believes can be aided by subjecting oneself to the domination or even abuse of a guru like Adi Da.
If the version of enlightenment that these guys are selling doesn’t manifest itself in an identifiable way in the observable, human dimension, then how does one validate a claim to have achieved it, and what’s its value even if they have? Anyone can make a claim to this kind of enlightenment, since there’s no objective requirement to be met. It seems that all we really have to go on in evaluating a claim of this type is the “enlightened” person’s own testimony, and our own “unenlightened” intuition about something we are told we are incapable of grasping. What we are left with comes down to pure faith.
Not only just faith, but faith that can be easily tainted by projection, wishful thinking, and the pervasive human tendency towards hero-worship in the domain of religion and elsewhere. This is the type of faith that opens the door to cultism, as we have observed repeatedly in recent years. How many devotees of “enlightened” gurus in the West have fallen prey to harmful deceptions, and have suffered the consequences accordingly?
Even if we allow, for the sake of argument, that these gurus have actually gone through some kind of change in consciousness that they are labeling as enlightenment, is this something we would want to aspire to? Do we really want to become more like Adi Da or a Chogyam Trungpa, in some fundamental respect? Is it really worth a lifetime of “spiritual practice” to try and end up where they are? In my view, that’s like devoting one’s life to the attempt to catch a serious disease.
These guys are egotistical, power-hungry people with serious character flaws who just happen to have been articulate spokesmen for a particular brand of spiritual philosophy. Good salesmen? Yes. Exemplary human beings, worthy of veneration, enlightened masters you should turn your life over to? Not in my book.
The most arrogant gurus (like Adi Da) are selling the belief that they continuously operate from an extraordinary perspective that allows them to transcend the illusions that bind the rest of us. While many of us “unenlightened” folks have had temporary experiences that bare some resemblance to an ego-transcendent state, while stoned or in a moment of epiphany, these spiritual big shots claim to be there all the time. Not only that, they make the highly questionable assertion that they can miraculously help others to get into that same space.
But for all their promises about awakening devotees to a direct experience of “witness consciousness” or whatever they may call it, all they really have to offer is adherence to just another belief system. It’s a belief system that elevates certain alleged subjective transformations in consciousness to the status of Truth itself. Even if the process of transformation or direct gnosis itself does not require any type of belief, it is true that in order to interpret it the proponents of enlightenment invoke all kinds of extremely speculative beliefs about its meaning, significance and ontological status.
In any event, an examination of the traditions and the testimony of all but the most deluded devotees (and gurus) shows that for virtually everyone enlightenment remains forever a future goal and something they have not yet achieved themselves. It is something they believe is possible because of the testimony of the gurus, and perhaps because of momentary intuitions they have had but can’t sustain. It’s no different from believing there’s a heaven you go to after death, or any other kind of religious belief.
And what has this approach to spirituality produced in the West? A lot of cultism and an obnoxious fixation on subjective internal processes (real or imagined), along with the obsessive quest for an illusory and ill-defined goal of “ego transcendence.” Most of the self-obsessed westerners who have lined up at the feet of so-called masters have had more in common than they’d like to admit with shoppers seeking the excitement of buying the latest must-have product, or druggies indulging in their substance of choice. It’s all about looking for a cure or distraction from the difficulties of our daily lives.
In the end, the hopeful and desperate search for relief, through esoteric spirituality or consumerism, brings only moments of temporary satisfaction. None ultimately escape the creative challenge of making peace with their own frail humanity, including the brute fact that they experience this world through the dualistic lens of “self” and “not-self,” forever separate, regardless of what they choose to believe (or what is really “true”) about the nature of reality.
While the seeker is still distracted in his pursuit of awakening, however, and the guru has been elevated to a status where his behavior is above question, the door is open for the guru to exploit the seeker as he sees fit. And that’s exactly what Adi Da and Trungpa have done, regardless of what it is they originally set out to do. Their interests in spirituality, coupled with a desire for power, evolved into careers for them that didn’t look much different from sophisticated “con” schemes – although they dressed themselves up in the language and imagery of eastern spirituality and pop psychology. New age wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Do you remember the Firesign Theater from the 1970s? They were a group of four wackos who did drug oriented comedy and were very funny sometimes. They did a routine where a lady named Mrs. Presky was a contestant on a TV game show. After she won a bunch of money, the slick game show announcer offered her a chance to trade all the money for whatever was behind door #2. Mrs. Presky went for it, expecting to win something really great. Behind the door was a nice gift bag, which she unwrapped and opened up. Seeing the contents, she exclaimed in shock, "Oh … why ... why this is a bag of shit!" The slick announcer enthusiastically replied, "But it’s really GOOD shit, Mrs. Presky.”
Well, there you have it. Wilber and Kornfield, Adi Da and Trungpa. Really good shit.
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This is one of those deals where, its actually good to see an example of this, and of course, Ive found, being on this path for a long time, and say exploring the east, from the west, it is a difficult thing to be able to learn, from this realm at times, about the east from the west, in an authentic manner. But one of the main issues which is difficult, is for us folks in the west, who may have set up an 'expectation' in mind, of what an enlightened guru would 'look like' and 'be like.' I, myself, dont necessarily see an enlightened guru in the garb trying to look like buddha or a lama and whatnot, like that. So I do my best to not set up any particular expectation, on appearances. However, there are times that the predators can pass themselves off, use some sleight of hand, esp with the foreknowledge how easily mind can dupe folks, and use the power of charisma to fool. This is actually where some good warrior techniques can be valuable. But also, the old saying "know thyself" at least to some degree, is really critical. On the spiritual path, we really walk a fine line, on the road (really within) to enlightenment. Muddle with all the options like 'transcending ego,' which I really dont even hook much on the term 'transcendence' even. Its about more, becoming real, growth, and learning. I dont have any special desire to become some shining bright light of a god or deva, and really buddha looks more like emptiness to me so I dont really view much of a 'form' with.
But there is some really basic red flag alerts we can use along the way, and one of them is we just have to be careful on the path. I suppose my capricornian sense comes in handy for it.
Still though, I do still stand by and accept that, we still do need teachers on the path at a certain point. Ive been in a few positions I felt like I was being recruited, IRL or online, and even the recruitment bothered me, or even someone trying to teach me some special model of the universe or what I see. Which really for myself, its about cutting illusions up, removing them best I can, not necessarily accepting a view to replace another. Im more into removing the webbing and getting it all out of the way.
But really is there something within us, and esp of the west, which already may have some lack of knowledge (thought we are getting better) and setting up incorrect expectations? But course, some basic expectations which are simple should be in place. Like when is something say, efforts to take on our ego, and when is it abuse? These should be obvious to us. Ive been lucky thus far, cause somehow, something surrounds me which does seem to keep me protected - that radar and bullshit detector aint going away anytime soon.
btw, just wanted to say, as I read this crap, makes me thankful soma is here, I appreciate it - makes me appreciate its presence more. OM to that one.
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Another thing I am thankful for - that Adi da died on Thanksgiving Day.
Thank you, for taking his ass off to wherever. I am thankful.
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For me, DJ said it as well as could be said...(not withstanding that Carlos may have been a pimp! heh) and that is in the piece about the 4 enemies. It appears that the 3rd really sucks!
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For me, DJ said it as well as could be said...(not withstanding that Carlos may have been a pimp! heh) and that is in the piece about the 4 enemies. It appears that the 3rd really sucks!
Yes it can! But also one good thing about the whole adi da deal, he did have a heart attack so all the sex and drugs and drinking finally worked him over - too much sex can wear ya out! Good riddance!
Here's the third enemy and good reminder from DJ:
But he has also come across his third enemy: Power!
Power is the strongest of all enemies. And naturally the easiest thing to do is to give in; after all, the man is truly invincible. He commands; he begins by taking calculated risks, and ends in making rules, because he is a master. A man at this stage hardly notices his third enemy closing in on him. And suddenly, without knowing, he will certainly have lost the battle. His enemy will have turned him into a cruel, capricious man, but he will never lose his clarity or his power. A man who is defeated by power dies without really knowing how to handle it. Power is only a burden upon his fate. Such a! man has no command over himself, and cannot tell when or how to use his power. Once one of these enemies overpowers a man there is nothing he can do. It is not possible, for instance, that a man who is defeated by power may see his error and mend his ways. Once a man gives in he is through. If, however, he is temporarily blinded by power, and then refuses it, his battle is still on. That means he is still trying to become a man of knowledge. A man is defeated only when he no longer tries, and abandons himself. He has to come to realize that the power he has seemingly conquered is in reality never his. He must keep himself in line at all times, handling carefully and faithfully all that he has learned. If he can see that clarity and power, without his control over himself, are worse than mistakes, he will reach a point where everything is held in check. He will know then when and how to use his power.
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For me, DJ said it as well as could be said...(not withstanding that Carlos may have been a pimp! heh) and that is in the piece about the 4 enemies. It appears that the 3rd really sucks!
LOL
:P
Pimpy C (that's his street name)
or Pimp Dog Carlito
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"A beautiful flower that has no scent
are like words of love without any action."
Talk is cheap. I can talk about love till the cows comes home but if I at the same time delude and/or seduce people that are attracted to me then I am not useful to my self and of very little use to others unless their highest desire is to get deluded.
Talking about love and peace and then behave like a immature schoolboy is like shortcircuit self. Not only that I contradict my self but I go against my self. My lovely words in such situation means nothing compared to my fraudful actions. One can be a bully with words too and most poision between people comes over the tongue. But to tell somebody off and beat him at the same time is kind of in the same direction, not contradictory.
When we go to the grocery, do we pick the rotten tomatoes or the not so fresh lettuce? Certainly not, they tell us that best before date has expired, instead we pick up the vegetables and fruits that look better. When choosing company we can be rather tuned in too. It is not that we judge tomatoes or people per se, it is more that we choose what radio station we want to listening to or what we want to eat.
Snuff is snuff, if so even in a golden box.
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Even if we allow, for the sake of argument, that these gurus have actually gone through some kind of change in consciousness that they are labeling as enlightenment, is this something we would want to aspire to? Do we really want to become more like Adi Da or a Chogyam Trungpa, in some fundamental respect? Is it really worth a lifetime of “spiritual practice” to try and end up where they are? In my view, that’s like devoting one’s life to the attempt to catch a serious disease.
These guys are egotistical, power-hungry people with serious character flaws who just happen to have been articulate spokesmen for a particular brand of spiritual philosophy. Good salesmen? Yes. Exemplary human beings, worthy of veneration, enlightened masters you should turn your life over to? Not in my book.
The most arrogant gurus (like Adi Da) are selling the belief that they continuously operate from an extraordinary perspective that allows them to transcend the illusions that bind the rest of us.
/.../
While the seeker is still distracted in his pursuit of awakening, however, and the guru has been elevated to a status where his behavior is above question, the door is open for the guru to exploit the seeker as he sees fit. And that’s exactly what Adi Da and Trungpa have done, regardless of what it is they originally set out to do. Their interests in spirituality, coupled with a desire for power, evolved into careers for them that didn’t look much different from sophisticated “con” schemes – although they dressed themselves up in the language and imagery of eastern spirituality and pop psychology. New age wolves in sheep’s clothing.
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Good post and good analogy per the shopping too.
Very true - talk is cheap. And also bullshit detectors come in very handy on the path. OM.
"A beautiful flower that has no scent
are like words of love without any action."
Talk is cheap. I can talk about love till the cows comes home but if I at the same time delude and/or seduce people that are attracted to me then I am not useful to my self and of very little use to others unless their highest desire is to get deluded.
Talking about love and peace and then behave like a immature schoolboy is like shortcircuit self. Not only that I contradict my self but I go against my self. My lovely words in such situation means nothing compared to my fraudful actions. One can be a bully with words too and most poision between people comes over the tongue. But to tell somebody off and beat him at the same time is kind of in the same direction, not contradictory.
When we go to the grocery, do we pick the rotten tomatoes or the not so fresh lettuce? Certainly not, they tell us that best before date has expired, instead we pick up the vegetables and fruits that look better. When choosing company we can be rather tuned in too. It is not that we judge tomatoes or people per se, it is more that we choose what radio station we want to listening to or what we want to eat.
Snuff is snuff if, so even in a golden box.
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Good post and good analogy per the shopping too.
Very true - talk is cheap. And also bullshit detectors come in very handy on the path. OM.
I liked metaphor with "New Age Wolves".
I saw the flaw as early as in the late 1970's. Osho is mentioned among the fraud gurus and he had this Bagwhan Sri Rajneesh cult in the US that even hit Sweden with their dancing message. Many musicians was attracted to them and they came out very programmed. One young and lovely, very famous artist here lost his life more or less when the red Bhagwan cult was dissipated, he came into a severe depression and never really got out of it - so some ten years later he ended his life before a train in the Stockholm underground. Not blaming the cult for that, but only mention that they played with peoples trust and faith and well being while they could not remain the standard or the structure as they vanished.
People that join such cults are often vulnerable in the category "give away my power" type of people, and when the pupil gets out in the cold, and the leader goes to jail or flee to the mountain, depression and psychiatric illness might easily take them. It is like an unhealthy relationship that get to the bottom when it is over.
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I liked metaphor with "New Age Wolves".
I saw the flaw as early as in the late 1970's. Osho is mentioned among the fraud gurus and he had this Bagwhan Sri Rajneesh cult in the US that even hit Sweden with their dancing message. Many musicians was attracted to them and they came out very programmed. One young and lovely, very famous artist here lost his life more or less when the red Bhagwan cult was dissipated, he came into a severe depression and never really got out of it - so some ten years later he ended his life before a train in the Stockholm underground. Not blaming the cult for that, but only mention that they played with peoples trust and faith and well being while they could not remain the standard or the structure as they vanished.
People that join such cults are often vulnerable in the category "give away my power" type of people, and when the pupil gets out in the cold, and the leader goes to jail or flee to the mountain, depression and psychiatric illness might easily take them. It is like an unhealthy relationship that get to the bottom when it is over.
Yeah and it was a shame that he became all that. Osho really got messed up. I was gleaning some things written yesterday cause been a long time since I looked at Osho/Sheela, which is what I call it, cause once she came in the picture, I would say this more fueled the 'shadow side' of Osho. And even his last three books written by him while he was on nitrous oxide, which some debate that, but looking how crazy Osho got toward the end, in all likelihood, true. Im surprised Sheela didnt do more time for all the attempted murder shit she did.
But in a way, whilst much of the really bad decisions were by Sheela, did Sheela possibly represent some destructive components of Osho muddying the waters of his own Shakti, like she became it? Really begs the question. How much was Osho accountable? I think like shakti, can mutate in the form of a dragon, really on any yogi and overpower, perhaps she represented an outer example of this, and this is why such harm occured with other folks, and it could still be occuring now, even with him gone.
Its an inner/outer consideration, definitely.
But one of the things I was thinking of, per power and the source, impeccability - the thought 'take only what you need,' is really criticial. Like osho kept pushing the buck on meditation. Is there a too-far per the techniques? I mean, how far do we really 'need' to go per meditation, and what is just plain necessary and simple? We are human afterall, and perhaps just taking only what we need is enough.
Thing is, if certain yogis, masters, folks whatever, get a big high on the power, say like adi da, they'll take way more than they need, so they can overpower others with that power. And then, what are the results? Do these power-junkies ever learn from the fall of so many others?
While say a leader/teacher in whatever form, can be a source of power (but mainly if done well, to aid others to find their own reserves), and some can aid, really, taking power 'over' others, vs power to be able to aid others to find their own, use it impeccably and well, and also only aid others who are ready and able, so they wont abuse others with it (another tricky part - hence why many mysteries remain as such), thats the other critical thing too, and why you dont see many folks being enlightened in droves necessarily. Cause if they become it, they may indulge in it, and abuse many others with it, and the damage which can occur can really bastardize things, steer folks away. yet still, not all can do it themselves, so teachers have value. But when you have frauds and folks who say may have been authentic but abused their power, which is really source power, then this really can cause more delays for others who, really are searching earnestly for their own liberation.
Just some thoughts.