Soma
Tools of the Path => Death [Public] => Topic started by: nichi on September 23, 2006, 03:03:54 AM
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This came from one of my email lists to which I subscribe, "The Other Syntax Discussion", but I thought it was too interesting to not post!!
In the last, decisive moments before a wolf pack lunges upon its prey, something extraordinarily peculiar occurs - something writer Barry Lopez has called "the conversation of death."
The pack will circle a caribou or a moose herd, in plain view, seemingly signaling their intent to kill. The prey animals will pause and make eye contact with the wolves. And then some inscrutable communication, a ritual exchange little understood by humans, passes between them.
It's as if the prey signal back, either their willingness to be killed, or their determination to survive. A wounded moose, safely hidden in the grass, may rise on shaky legs, as if deliberately giving itself away. Though it could likely hold the wolves off simply by standing its ground, it suicidally turns tail and runs - the very thing most likely to draw an attack.
Other times, a concerned moose will trot toward the pack, make eye contact, and the wolves will simply melt away into the forest, as though entirely distinterested. As if the prey animals fate had been decided by some mutual agreement, some ceremonial pact of long ago, between hunter and hunted. It's a conversation so naturally sublime, humans do not hear it.
That we find this behavior so curious demonstrates how little we know
about predator and prey in the wild - even though this intricate pas de deux of death, the sacred ritual of the kill, is central to the whole web of life.
- Stefan Bechtel
The Riddle of the Wolves
American Way Magazine
January 1995
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Excellent sharing :)
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I surely pray that I can hold my wherewithal when "that day" comes and just face the pack and try not to blink.
f
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I surely pray that I can hold my wherewithal when "that day" comes and just face the pack and try not to blink.
f
I know what you mean, t2f!
"Not today!"
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So the moose runs to attract the attention of wolves? But healthy and ill animals all run. Wouldn't it be more purposeful to exchange looks and simply stay there?
I admit, I'm 215% sceptic regarding such stories about animals. It makes me especially sceptic to hear about animals' ability to make conscious choices.
On the human side, I can give many examples where humans have known about their coming death and chosen and gone and faced it squarely.
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That is bizarre, like there could be some acceptance by the prey, very interesting!
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That is bizarre, like there could be some acceptance by the prey, very interesting!
I have come across this before in some of my readings - theosophical stuff.
The connections between the different "kingdoms" - ie plant animal and human, and the Kingdom of Souls (the 5th kingdom)
adding..
it's we who give preditor and prey their meaning. In the above context, the persona is prey to the soul (in a manner of speaking). The 'ego' must willingly give way to the 'soul' - sort of "sacrifice" itself. There is much depth to that.
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I admit, I'm 215% sceptic regarding such stories about animals. It makes me especially sceptic to hear about animals' ability to make conscious choices.
Well it's true that the other animals aren't looking at who to vote for in upcoming elections, or reviewing their portfolios in order to determine where to invest their money -- or deciding which pantheon is the best one for their angst. Their reality is very different than yours or mine, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they don't make choices, that they don't reflect Spirit, that they aren't soul-beings who chose the deer-experience, or the moose-experience, or the wolf-experience, in their current incarnations.
They may not consciously consider how you and I interpret them : their filters are obviously different. But what this leads to, in my view, is an immediate apprehension of spirit, unencumbered by the handicaps we have! They are already in those other dimensions, the ones we often seek. Their grace is natural. Ours is too, but we spend a lifetime shedding the programming which intervenes with our direct experience of it. They don't -- they are born into it. They are!
As such, they're my teachers.
Heheh, E, I have a tray of peanuts for the jays. But when I was just on the patio, a jay flew to the tree in front of me (away from the tray), expectantly. I threw him a peanut. He scooped it up, and then flew over to the tray, putting it in the tray, then picked up another, put that one down and picked up another, again and again until he found the 'right' peanut for him. I don't know what his criteria was, but it's hard for me to see the other animals in a framework of non-choice. :D
This is a western idea, this superiority-of-humans notion. Something the church fathers misinterpreted in Genesis, I believe... To me, divinity is in all, spirit is in everything, and I don't care if the lions can't read the King's English!
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To regard the lion and the water rats and our fellow men as equals is a magnificent act of the warrior's spirit. It takes power to do that. ...
~DJ
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To regard the lion and the water rats and our fellow men as equals is a magnificent act of the warrior's spirit. It takes power to do that. ...
~DJ
Does it mean attributing the brutality and violence of animal world to humans, or seeing humans as no better than animals, or attributing some human qualities to animals?
Whenever I hear about follwing example of any animal or animal world, I'm throughly puzzled. How can the utter non-stop violence of that world be forgotten or neglected? There is an excellent French documentary called 'A day in bug's life' or something along these lines. It removes any illusion about how these things live their daily lives. How many kills are done in 24 hours, how many times violence against own species or other is used.
The row of examples is endless. Squirrels eating hatchlings, crows blinding and killing cats, pigeons fighting each other to bits and pieces, dolphins raping their females and so on and on...
Human has become the most powerful predator on this planet. So powerful that he is utterly self-destructive. In general, he is at the same level with other animals. In this I agree. Yet he has potential to do better. Animals don't or practically don't have such potential (I agree that animals can be taught to modify their behavior, their own ability and awareness do not permit initiating such modifications though).
Apologies, if this sounds too dark. But these facts simply cannot be ignored.
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Depends on what you wanna call facts. The four-legged and flying creatures have the potential of one day probably being the only species on this planet. They can, have and will continue to evolve and adapt to their environment as we humans meerly destroy it slowly with no regard for future generations. What the other animals so violently is usually out of necessity, don't you think? We kill things because they're in the way of our "progress" towards self-extinction.
But this has been going on for ten thousand years, right?
t
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Depends on what you wanna call facts. The four-legged and flying creatures have the potential of one day probably being the only species on this planet. They can, have and will continue to evolve and adapt to their environment as we humans meerly destroy it slowly with no regard for future generations. What the other animals so violently is usually out of necessity, don't you think? We kill things because they're in the way of our "progress" towards self-extinction.
But this has been going on for ten thousand years, right?
t
Facts are facts.
Animal world is utterly violent.
Should it be taken as an example or role model for crafting human behaviour? Considering all the violence?
That is my question.
As for human behaviour and destructiveness...that is a whole different opera.
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The human world is utterly violent too, e!
And we'll even kill from across the globe, not being able to see the whites of our opponents' eyes! I don't see anything noble or honorable in that.
My first realization: "I am animal... and that is wonderful!"
How else could I connect with the earth?
And then, if I don't connect with the earth, how can I connect with the beyond?
But that was me --- we all take different routes...
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Very true - routes are very different.
There is no way I'd like to be an animal. :)
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I thought you were. I am. You mean the beasts, right? Like I tried to say before. All besides us humans do not have a reason to act as they do. They are just surviving. We aren't surviving, are we? t
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Interesting the different points of view!
(((((t2f and e))))))
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That is bizarre, like there could be some acceptance by the prey, very interesting!
It is interesting.. this whole thread is!
When I hunt, there is acceptance in my prey. They do not present themselves the same if not. Its an inner knowing. Ive not taken many many deer for this reason.
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I have come across this before in some of my readings - theosophical stuff.
The connections between the different "kingdoms" - ie plant animal and human, and the Kingdom of Souls (the 5th kingdom)
adding..
it's we who give preditor and prey their meaning. In the above context, the persona is prey to the soul (in a manner of speaking). The 'ego' must willingly give way to the 'soul' - sort of "sacrifice" itself. There is much depth to that.
I feel due to my shapeshifting that I have kinship with animals as well as trees. Im not sure it would be possible to do such if not.
Well said Daphne, we are the ones giving that meaning.. in life its survial.. we are all animals imo
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Its an inner knowing.
yes!
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Facts are facts.
Animal world is utterly violent.
Should it be taken as an example or role model for crafting human behaviour? Considering all the violence?
That is my question.
As for human behaviour and destructiveness...that is a whole different opera.
Imo we as humans are utterly violent and trained to a point we cant even see what we actually are doing. If we were to strip away all of our social training back to our primal selves I think the world would host a different human race all together eliminating all the harsh wars and brutal killings of ego.
We have indeed evolved greatly to which Im not saying isnt a wonderful thing..
But...
:-* Jennifer
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T2F, I meant a different thing.
Animals are like small children - they do not know what they are doing. I have torn off legs of a bug when I was small. I remember doing it. I've seen other kids doing similar things and looking with curiosity at the bug's reaction. For them it is interesting test, for bugs it is experiencing incomprehensible agony at the hands of huge monstrous totally insensitive thing. Yet kids have no ill intention, they are just plain unaware.
The whole animal life is being plain unaware (or very little aware), but extremely violent.
I'm not that interested in eternal childhood without developing any awareness. :D
As Raven quoted elsewhere: Jesus said, "Unless you become like little children, you cannot know the meaning of Life, for your minds must be cleared of the falsehoods of this realm if you are to be taught Eternal Truth."
In human life we develop awareness of our actions and have the ability to restore the purity of mind of a child, BUT with and by assimilating all the experience gathered of the world.
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We kill things because they're in the way of our "progress" towards self-extinction.
There's a strange truth in that statement which is eerie. I do wonder why people can't come together on trying to save ourselves. We can be in cahoots to destroy ourselves easily via separation. But to save ourselves we can't quite get an agreement on it. Like everyone is waiting for something to save us from ourselves.
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Funny how we all veiw things differently and also nice for exploring..
I'm not that interested in eternal childhood without developing any awareness.
As Raven quoted elsewhere:
Quote
Jesus said, "Unless you become like little children, you cannot know the meaning of Life, for your minds must be cleared of the falsehoods of this realm if you are to be taught Eternal Truth."
In human life we develop awareness of our actions and have the ability to restore the purity of mind of a child, BUT with and by assimilating all the experience gathered of the world.
I took the quote to mean children are more aware of their true selves lacking all the gathered 'reason' We do have the advantage of seeing this in our adulthood.. but from what Ive seen very few adults actually dive into that thought..
Maybe we are saying the same thing just in different words.. :)
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I truly feel that us humans are actually realizing that we need saving from ourselves. But will enough influential people say the right things to the most receptive ears? And will these ears react in time? Like any good thing for humanity, the ones who realize a certain goodness are decades ahead of the rest of the pack. And the proverbial pack make the local, national and international decisions to start the process of saving ourselves from ourselves. Is it too late for a mental and spiritual revolution of a global size? Probably not, but who knows for sure? It will not be the first time or the last time that the numbers of humanity dropped to a very small amount, right? It's part of our evolution, for sure.
And we all need to often be like little children, in that the open heart and non-diluded mind can have their freedom to feel unfettered by the ego and be guiltless of bad Intent, don't you all think? A child means no harm to another. This is what I strongly sense that the Christ meant by "little children". Just like it was probably meant that 'heaven" is the state of fearless non-suffering and love for all who we come into contact with. We ARE all "one", right?
I am reminded here and now of my year-long meditation ......... "If there is no-self, then is there also no-other?"
I have yet to receive a vision on THIS one. Maybe I won't or already have and I just didn't/couldn't grasp it.
Still wondering. t
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I too have often wondered on the quote Raven gave - "Jesus said, "Unless you become like little children, you cannot know the meaning of Life, for your minds must be cleared of the falsehoods of this realm if you are to be taught Eternal Truth."
Like many of the sayings, I wonder if we are meant to actually understand the quote mentally, or is it a way to ponder and so break the mind's hold - ie meditate on it.
I suppose a bit of both..
Children have an ability to live in the moment - ie they experience Life without having some sort of context to put their experience into. Jesus did say "know the meaning of Life". The "falsehoods" of this realm are pretty much the conditioning and beliefs we grow up with, and mind becomes clear with awareness. If Jesus was indeed the shaman many attribute him to have been - then his words also would tend to be more in the realm of how to live, a way of life, than a theological discussion. An "eternal truth" that comes to mind, is Life is about living Life and being aware of being alive, the "aliveness" that we feel when 'in the moment'. I know for myself I feel more alive being aware than when thinking about being aware. It's like a still moment that goes on forever - well.. at least until my mind gets in the way! :D
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I know for myself I feel more alive being aware than when thinking about being aware. It's like a still moment that goes on forever - well.. at least until my mind gets in the way! :D
Now the 10-point question :D is - is this the 'real' awareness or is it maya, too? Is it not just another way of dreaming? Can one wake up from that, too?
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Now the 10-point question :D is - is this the 'real' awareness or is it maya, too? Is it not just another way of dreaming? Can one wake up from that, too?
Yes.. I see it is also maya.. I am 'caught up in it' (so to speak) - somewhere though, the key to waking up from that too, lies in the dreaming.
Interesting though, when I was into Osho, his 'take' on maya was that maya was was "almost real" - a bit different in meaning from the usual translation of "illusion". It gave me a lot to ponder on.. still does! :D
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Yes.. I see it is also maya.. I am 'caught up in it' (so to speak) - somewhere though, the key to waking up from that too, lies in the dreaming.
Absolutely, dreaming and other stuff are just tools for finding keys. None of these techniques are keys themselves (at least I see it that way now). M wrote some time ago at TNF about parallel lines and there was a passage in it about shifting from two-dimensional flight into third dimension - doing 90-degree turn - in order to seek the true awakening. My question was inspired by that passage - it is nice to dive into the ever-expanding perception of the second attention, but where is that cubic centimetre of opportunity to move forward from there?
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I am at present rereading The Art of Dreaming - different things sort of pop up!
Navigating the 2nd attention is also, I see it, a learning 'tool', not an end in its self. Perhaps in some way it relates to what you have been saying? The second attention is not the goal, any more than the first attention is. Even what is understood by the third attention is rather minimal information given us. The more we are aware of maya, in its various forms, the more I suppose we have a chance of not being distracted at that opportune moment.
That cubic centremeter of opportunity you mention, - to move on from there, - perhaps that is a one time opportunity and we hone our skills for that one chance moment. Thats pretty much how I see death at the moment - whatever I learn through whatever tools is to prepare me for that moment so that I will recognize it..? I'm still swimming in the dark here.. :D the bardo states come to mind here too..
Perhaps it is not a moving forward but rather a moving sideways? Kind of like a phase shift. We are so used to (well at least i am) of speaking in terms of horizontal and vertical which somehow still convery 2D to me. The 3D you mention is how i see 'phase shift". I think that we can't so much 'seek' the true awakening, as much as it finds us, if we are ready. Somehow it's like seeking but without seeking, as when seeking, we often have an idea, however slight it may be, of that which we are seeking. We may then miss the opening! Perhaps it not called the unknowable for nothing!! :D
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Well put! There are things you just cannot prepare for.
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There are things you just cannot prepare for.
Yes, very much so!
Perhaps that is really what is behind all the teachings and the techniques we learn? What comes to mind here is the 'sweeping clean' the table of the tonal, and also the connection to the energy body through dreaming and the second attention. We cannot prepare for that which we do not know and so we just clean ourselves - so to speak - so that we are not carrying anything? The energy body has no mass - thoughts and ideas and emotion, to me, convey mass. Perhaps that is also behind all the meanings associated with 'purity'? DJM has said that all our power is in our impeccability. I take that to mean maximum energy minimum mass - mass being that which holds us down (so to speak)
On the other hand, it could have nothing to do with anything like this at all - that cubic centimeter of chance! I am reminded of that in meditation. Not knowing what else to do.. I continue to clean the table and learning to be aware of my dreaming attention! :D
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:D
Very cool!
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Animals are like small children - they do not know what they are doing.
They know what they know, through their own filters.
The whole animal life is being plain unaware (or very little aware), but extremely violent.
E, every waking minute of every day for the other animals is not spent in violence and killing. They have a pretty broad gamut of experience beyond their survival needs -- pleasure-seeking, comfort-seeking, warmth, affection, joy and exuberance.
They don't engage in discussions like these, they don't examine "awareness", any more than we climb sharp precipices with hooved feet. To hold that against them seems so odd to me.
What we're engaging in is our human nature. They engage in their bird-nature, feline-nature, ungulate-nature, etc. etc.
I'm not that interested in eternal childhood without developing any awareness. :D
And the other animals aren't interested in a lot of mental analysis!
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In losing the human form ... we have to know what that is. It's deeper than "ego". I'm a living being on this planet, amongst many. What is that "human" thing I do? I've learned what that is through watching, affiliating with, and communing with the critters. I've stalked myself by viewing myself as a creature. Many parts I have in common with the others, many parts I don't. We all have our respective "creaturehoods".
The essence of the form I need to lose, becoming a completely spiritual entity, comes not by turning my back on the thing I chose to be, in this lifetime.
Though certainly many is the time I've been utterly disgusted with my own species. 8)
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I was just thinking on that myself now!
The 'human form' to me is more than "ego" - though can't say i really know what it is. I tend to look at things in 'relation to'. On the one side of 'human' there is what is called my 'animal' part - though i must admit that i don't really see it as animal.. no disrespect to the other kingdoms of nature meant here, just that the human being evolves physically through having already 'absorbed' the other kingdoms - so to speak, and we are perhaps at a midpoint of 'human' as a whole.
On the other side, is the kingdom of the soul. There is a gateway to that kingdom and perhaps here too we may have different conception of soul, though not in essence different.
All in all, to release the human form, I do see that we need an awareness of just what that human form is that we are setting to release.
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See, Daphne, I don't do the hierarchical separation....
I like to think I've lived this life with gusto, fully engaging in it, never separating from it, and then I will have much to report when I move on to the next thing!
We all take different routes, as I said. My path has been in the blades of grass and the sweat of my brow. God, Spirit -- they're in the grass, they're in me ... they're not "out there". Well, they are "out there", but my path has been a very grassroots affair.
There are many different sorts of mysticism -- they're all valid.
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Yeah V - I get it!
I don't do the "hierarchal separation" thingy either. It's just a metaphor!
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Back to the agreements we make with death... I think there's truth in this. I watch my mother. As of now, she hasn't given her consent to it.
But I've seen others who have... the quiet letting go of life. What goes into that surrender is a mystery to me.
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Absolutely, dreaming and other stuff are just tools for finding keys. None of these techniques are keys themselves (at least I see it that way now). M wrote some time ago at TNF about parallel lines and there was a passage in it about shifting from two-dimensional flight into third dimension - doing 90-degree turn - in order to seek the true awakening. My question was inspired by that passage - it is nice to dive into the ever-expanding perception of the second attention, but where is that cubic centimetre of opportunity to move forward from there?
Michael, now that we are speaking of death with more focus, can you say more about the 2-dimensional flight into the 3rd, doing a 90-degree turn? Is this relevant at all to death's flight, and retaining one's awareness?
Is this flight the same for all, or are there individual differences?
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i don't recall anything about a 90% turn - rings a bell, but you will have to locate that reference for me.
2 just happens to be in the middle between 1 and 3, so a confusion arises.
1st world = 3 dimensional (ie. with two eyes we see distance - this and that, and here and there).
2nd world = 2 dimensional (ie a picture world, duality - this and that, which is what pictures are about)
3rd world = 1 dimensional (ie perception without pictures, non-duality, no comparisons)
don't get into a flap about that - it's just a way of talking.
what i think you are asking is how we move from the 2nd to the 3rd world. First, we do it when the astral body dies. But we also do it all the time - we have to be connected to the 3rd world or we wouldn't exist. The issue always is how to extend awareness from the 1st through the 2nd and into the 3rd.
This is what DJ referred to as warriors of the 3rd attention. 3rd world is also known as the Sephirah Kether in the Kaballah, or Brahman in Hinduism - sometimes also associated with Shiva.
Hinduism has the best tools of thought to help understand. Brahman is 'without attributes', meaning it is unknowable, in our understanding of knowing.
3rd attention means extending our attention into the 3rd world. Hinduism calls this moksha. It is worth noting that the entirety of Hindu thought in almost all it's variations, is dedicated to moksha - that's what it's all about. And so is it's 'reformation' Buddhism. Also, one could argue, is what is referred to as Philosophical Taoism, and Esoteric Taoism, but definitely not Popular Taoism.
Neither Judiasm, Christianity or Islam (the Abrahamic Religions) have any interest in this concept at all, aside from placing the Sephirah Kether at the top of the tree in Esoteric Judiasm - and one could also argue Northen Sufism has similar interests. But these are not within the orthodox religious field of any Abrahamic religion.
Toltec is dedicated to this concept, but only as part of it's third wave - a later development.
How to shift into the 3rd attention? Rudolf Steiner actually mapped it - he gave some early phases just passed the doorway, so to speak. I can't remember exactly, but they included things like intention.
There are two ways - direct and long.
Direct is absolute silence - the deepest experience of absolute silence you can possibly plumb.
Long is the journey, of mastery of passage. I mean you only need to master sufficient to pass through. Passage through the 1st and 2nd worlds. This means using the 1st and 2nd worlds - developing effectiveness in - to enter the 3rd world as a consequence of evolution of being - transformation.
It is my opinion that the long is the main task, but it also incorporates the direct. I am suspicious that the direct path can ever really be effective on its own. That is why i launched into the world, instead of retiring to a zen monastery. The problem with the long is that we get side-tracked along the way, and forget we are only passing through (a great song btw).
now we get into an area that preoccupies my attention considerably. I'll just say that at some point, the long is demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt to be impossible, futile. It simply can't be done. I have a song about that myself ("There's only one thing that you can cling to, and you won't find it no matter what you do.")
This is where we cast ourselves upon the mercy of the Bird. The active principle of Spirit. that does not mean we give up our own efforts.
It is like we are ascending a building, and each floor has steps leading to the next floor. But the the final steps to the roof of the building are missing. There are no steps for the last section.
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This is where we cast ourselves upon the mercy of the Bird. The active principle of Spirit. that does not mean we give up our own efforts.
It is like we are ascending a building, and each floor has steps leading to the next floor. But the the final steps to the roof of the building are missing. There are no steps for the last section.
Straaange,
isn't it!?
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Facts are facts.
Animal world is utterly violent.
Should it be taken as an example or role model for crafting human behaviour? Considering all the violence?
That is my question.
As for human behaviour and destructiveness...that is a whole different opera.
Coming across good stuff. Pausing 1984.
We have no right to judge anything in the animal kingdom. They may show violence to catch pray. It’s for basic survival. They don’t gorge. They only store what is necessary.
They do also share. Only take if to survive.
They are still evolving.
Their existence helps the eco-system of the planet. They better it. They don’t destroy the planet. We do.
We can learn from them. How about “only take what you need.”
Judge animals. It’s ridiculous. I once saw some video of a woman who force fed her cat a vegetarian diet. It was skin and bones near death.
Anyway the judgment is ridiculous.