Topic: Destiny, Fate, and Accidents

[Jahn]

I may address elsewhere the mechanics of reality creation, but here let me say that we DO create reality, and we do so through the projection and reception of energy through perception.  This is an extremely foreign conception, I know.  Because it is so different, it may be difficult for those mechanically minded to agree that we create our own reality.  But, I mean exactly what I said, WE CREATE OUR REALITY.

If you believe that, then you are in the wrong perception.

It does rankle me a bit when I read that "we would never be allowed to create our reality".  I'm taking your words literally as an accurate expression of what you mean.  By whom would this allowance be granted? By what right?  By what power?  I didn't grant this right or power to any thing or energy outside or foreign to me. 

"We" in terms of the human beings we are. We are not allowed to create our reality, how provocative this ever may sound, it is the truth. Becuse if we should create our own reality then we would very likely miss the opportunity for growth.

"Whom" is your Dreamer or Soul.
"By what" is  the birthright of your divine self.
By "What power" is the usual one.
This is not foreign to you, in fact this is the essence of you.

However, it is not necessary to believe that there is a power that is greater than us.

Then experience it.

 jm
 .~

[Jahn]

Let us go back to the original post of Baba Josh.

1)

” These circumstances and happenings of life that are unrelated to manifestations of 'being-willpower' Gurdjieff has called 'accidents'. These happenings are not the result of uninterupted effort on one's part, and therefore they are essentially results of the world in action (at the level of society of man). The world pushes us, we move a little bit, it pushes a little more, we move a little more. We cannot say that it is our intent or actual effort that has placed us in the situations we find ourselves. We are only reacting to outside circumstance and basically floating like a leaf on the wind.”

That is the state of the beginner described where you (hm?) and most people are.

Unlees of course you have completed at least one cycle of growth which may transform your initial relatively poor situation into something with more autonomy. It is about the ability to manifest - in Tonal. (Real cash, and meetings with Dalai Lama).

2)

“So many events at our level of life never reach past the 3rd stage of manifestation. This is how cycles are created. The manifestation begins and reaches a certain point where it can no longer be carried by the intial momentum; at that point a certain energy must be applied or the manifestation will cease.”

This leads us to the next step:

3)

Man could become accustomed to and perhaps even learn to somehow cooperate with these forces and even bypass many of the laws that we fall under, except for the fact that he believes he already has. He believes he can 'do'. He believes he has 'will'. He believes he 'knows'. He believes he has 'understanding'. Man has none of these qualities and yet it is his unacceptance of this simple fact which will keep him from ever acquiring them - even though they are our birthright as the beings that we are. The only problem is that they are not provided by nature, we must earn them by our own hard work and conscious effort.

At least an opening, we believe, like you do, that we have these qualities, yet to manifest - but the hope is that they can be ours, we can earn them through hard work.


4)

Our Fate is the linking force that we will use to connect with our Destiny. Fate must be created by us by our own effort.  

There is a energy rule that can't be passed without done the exam so to speak. Gurdijeff was sometimes "accused" to trying to fool the system. Only he could know how to even try to fool it. We others have no idea how to do such "fooling" and have to rely on our own steps and sound choices.

5a)

This is where creating our Fate comes down to our presence in the moment. Whatever action we take, no matter how tiny and insignificant it may seem - it actually affects everything that exists, it all adds up.

It is in that position we want to be.

5b)

If your actions are always dragging you here and there, up and down, with no sustained momentum in any conscious direction, then you will continue to be at whims of circumstance until you make the effort to steer yourself in some way 

But it is in this position most of us live the main part of our lives.
Now Todd, a simple question - what work have you done, what transformations and energy transmutations have you done to claim that you create your reality? And do you still claim that everyone DO create their reality?

Just wondering because it has some implications for what we shall "discuss".


 jm
 ~.

[Gunslinger]

Jahn:

With all due respect, I have an offer to make to you:

Let's each refrain in the future from making assumptions about what the other has done, how far down the rabbit hole the other has gone, what they have or have not created, how far the other has progressed?  Okay?  Deal?

Second, I accept, as they are, your opinions about me, and my beliefs, my perception, and me.  However, I request your respect in the future, if not your acceptance (non-judgment).  Repeated statements like this, "If you believe that, then you are in the wrong perception," are not conducive to further discussion with me. While I accept your opinion on this, it is not absolute, and whether I  am wrong or not is not any of your business, really.  What's right for you is not necessarily right for me.  My acceptance, however, is not synonymous with agreeing to your opinions, nor tolerating them when they are judgmental of me, or make unwarranted assumptions about me.

For example, it doesn't matter whether you accept or agree to the idea that you creaate your own reality.  My purpose here is to express myself and my ideas, test them out here.  If you don't accept or agree, what's it to me?  It truely matters not.

Third, since I have no control over creating your reality, your acceptance, or your agreement, what good would it do, how effective would it be, how impeccable would it be, for me to offer you proof of how I create my own reality?  How much proof would it take to convince you?  I submit it would be a waste of energy to even try.  Further, it is entirely unnecessary.  The proof is as clear as the nose on your face.  But I can't make you notice it.  Nor is it my concern.  I care, and that's why I'm here.  But, I can't force you to see it.  Your choice.

Whatever you want to discuss, that's fine with me.  I choose whether to continue to participate, and so do you.

[Josh]

"I leave you all in a fine mess"

- Gurdjieff

Heh, Ive been out the past few days and it seems this thread has become contentious!  Im not going to join in on this but I did want to make a comment about the 4th way style of teachings and how they relate to the public at large.  Namely: they dont - in any way whatsoever.  In fact they were never intended to be repeated outside of a school or group setting, preferably remaining within The Institute for the Harmonius Development of Man.  However as Gurdjieff neared his final years and begrudgingly admitted to himself that he had not achieved his aim of creating such a school in lasting form, decided to write down his knowledge in the form of the series 'All and Everything'.  This was not presented in the way of school practices, but rather general knowledge and other bits and peices which could help someone on their 'objective path' or in forming their own group themselves.  And even this series of books remained unfinished as well.

A few years ago I realized that it is generally impossible to relay 4th way style teachings to people who are unfamiliar with them.  It takes substantial background education on the subject to begin to approach understanding the vast lexicon of practices and theories and philosophies.  Since then I have moved away from referring to such things except in an offhand way, and even then only for the benefit of those who are familiar.

I was curious as to how such a "dedicated" lecture on the subject might be recieved by this group as a whole.  The result was predictable, although of course I wouldnt have tried this experiment if I thought it was the only one possible.

If someone is interested in learning about such groups as they were in the beginning of G's teachings, I would suggest 'In Search of the Miraculous'.  It was by far Ouspensky's most important contribution to the movement, as it was basically a straight transcription of meetings given by G himself.  Later on, O would come to resent G in some ways, and left the original group deciding to start his own with G's teachings.  This of course failed within a few years.  O eventually became obsessed with his failure and lived out his remaining years as a bitter, delusioned alchoholic.  On this note I cannot reccomend the book "The Fourth Way" which is arguably the most read book on the topic, as it was transcriptions of meetings given by O in his new group, and on topics which were not of his design and often misunderstood.

[Taimi]

I was interested of Gurdijeff's material once, but they were not available, maybe in Russian but i'm not that good in Russian. It really seemed interesting and about the real thing... or something.

But now i'm not interested of any systems or materials at all. I rather try to concentrate on what i perceive myself. If that's not much or things arent as clear as i would like them to be, then i just relax and accept it, everything comes when it's time for it. I just fallow my intuition, dreams and signs 

[Michael]

My purpose here is to express myself and my ideas, test them out here.

Unfortunately Todd, this is the nub of the problem. You thought when you came here that this is a new place to do what you have done on other forums, as you describe above, and continue to see this place and your purpose here, in the same way.

This is not like other forums. This is a school for people to work on themselves - it is not a place to debate ideas. Sure we entertain ourselves, and float ideas about which we question, but that is secondary.

Those here who are gaining value from this space, present their personal lives, and talk of how they are struggling to apply the principles and resources from here and elsewhere IN THEIR DAILY LIVES.

You never talk about your personal life, you only hide behind mental games. Instead of trying to 'reflect' back other people's mental state as you perceive it, or run around pretending nothing matters to you, and that the everything is someones personal illusion - playing James Bond with the mind, what I want to see you do, and anyone else for that matter, is to talk about how you are trying to test out your ideas in your daily struggle:

What about your relationships - how are you succeeding with creating your own reality with your parents, your lovers or lack of them, your relationships in your work?

What about your health - that's always a good one, have you got any health problems where you have succeeded in creating health so you no longer need to use the doctors favourite tool, their pills? or have you had serious problems with your body where you are struggling to prove and test your theories?

What about your work - are you doing what you love? Are you struggling with boredom or frustration, and wish you could be doing something more meaningful or closer to your life's purpose?

Just some examples Todd, what we ask for here is to share how we struggle in our personal life to be on the path we profess. This is not special to you - everyone here is in the same position, and those who are willing to talk as real humans with their joys and problems, and how they are trying to apply their spirit in those situations - they are gaining.

The others ... we are waiting, as we are with you. But in your case, you are making vague claims, and I think it is only fair that you now pull down your shield, and show us just who you are behind your veil. Show us the real Todd, don't be concerned - everyone here is hurting in some way.

m

[Taimi]

What about your relationships - how are you succeeding with creating your own reality with your parents, your lovers or lack of them, your relationships in your work?

Hmm, lovers... that's an interesting area... 

Maybe i will make a thread about that.

[Jahn]

Jahn:

With all due respect, I have an offer to make to you:

I am afraid any offer is rejected.
I gave you some answers and asked some questions.
Until you answer or comment there is nothing to discuss, You carry a mental ghost that slow your pace.

Sorry, that's it.


  . .