Topic: Assemblage point

[Jahn]

It is the same as if you posted on the topic of enlightenment, like an expert, talking about all it entails, when you're not enlightened in the first place. Just a nonsense thread from an idiot posting and the only benefit came when michael and jahn posted, because they do have 'direct experience' where you clearly do not.

Chill out Urania.

You have many good input, and you do not need to be rude to any member.

[Michael]

Travel is indeed one of my favourite means of AP shifting, but it needs to be done in a specific way. Taimi, your overseas trip has shifted your AP, and that shift is permanent, but in the business of AP shifting, it is only a small beginning. The same applies to Rudi. The kind of trip both of you did means you will never be the same again - your cultural egg now has a permanent crack in it.

The problem for the vast bulk of travellers outside their country, is that they do it in the pure tourist manner, which produces only a very small and temporary shift, almost counter-productive as it can serve to reinforce the old cultural egg.

The key point is to intentionally merge with the other culture, and few want to do this. If you do succeed in letting yourself go into the other culture, and many months are required for this, then you will achieve a permanent and beneficial shift, but that is insufficient for our purposes, albeit a very good beginning.

To move to the next step, you have engage in a spiritual journey to another country, which you will know has succeeded if it changes your direction in life.

However, keep in mind the issue of small and big AP shifts. Both have their place, and in general, if you haven't engaged successfully in small shifts, then a big shift can be quite unproductive from a spiritual perspective.

In the end, I believe small shifts are the real key - slow, gradual and stable shifts over a life time. These are the real deal, but you need to be careful you are not just fooling yourself you are shifting. The ego is unbelievably clever at pretending it is changing and growing.

But the point I was making with my first post, is about intending a major AP shift. Setting it up over many years.

[Taimyr]

Yes, this trip did have an effect, but not only to my cultural understandings. At one point I started to feel very clearly that everything that humans do, is absolutely meaningless. I could have beel alone in the desert instead of being in a big city, and it wouldn't have any difference. That's how it felt.

I did meet a lot of Estonians who only interacted with other Estonians mostly. I found it very boring. I was lucky enough to even make friends among Australians, not just acquaintances.

Yes, ego is clever. It's better to assume at all times that the ego is still there.

Travel is indeed one of my favourite means of AP shifting, but it needs to be done in a specific way. Taimi, your overseas trip has shifted your AP, and that shift is permanent, but in the business of AP shifting, it is only a small beginning. The same applies to Rudi. The kind of trip both of you did means you will never be the same again - your cultural egg now has a permanent crack in it.

The problem for the vast bulk of travellers outside their country, is that they do it in the pure tourist manner, which produces only a very small and temporary shift, almost counter-productive as it can serve to reinforce the old cultural egg.

The key point is to intentionally merge with the other culture, and few want to do this. If you do succeed in letting yourself go into the other culture, and many months are required for this, then you will achieve a permanent and beneficial shift, but that is insufficient for our purposes, albeit a very good beginning.

To move to the next step, you have engage in a spiritual journey to another country, which you will know has succeeded if it changes your direction in life.

However, keep in mind the issue of small and big AP shifts. Both have their place, and in general, if you haven't engaged successfully in small shifts, then a big shift can be quite unproductive from a spiritual perspective.

In the end, I believe small shifts are the real key - slow, gradual and stable shifts over a life time. These are the real deal, but you need to be careful you are not just fooling yourself you are shifting. The ego is unbelievably clever at pretending it is changing and growing.

But the point I was making with my first post, is about intending a major AP shift. Setting it up over many years.

[Michael]

The movement of the AP is too complex a subject for a thread like this in a forum. We can only touch on a few pointers.

But I will add another, that it is nearly impossible for an aspirant on the path to shift their own AP. It is like trying to open a tied up bag from the inside. We all require forces outside ourself to break the fixation of our AP. Once we have shifted numerous times, it then becomes possible to intend our own shift.

Many of the points everyone here have made won't work, unless there is someone beside you who knows how to add in a precious extra substance, to the tiny leverages those points create. It is a bad mistake to wander off alone believing your freedom or independence is all you need on this path. It doesn't work that way, unless you happen to be a nagual. In the end, it is the precious substance that shifts the AP in the right direction, not the technique.

[Nick]

The movement of the AP is too complex a subject for a thread like this in a forum. We can only touch on a few pointers.

But I will add another, that it is nearly impossible for an aspirant on the path to shift their own AP. It is like trying to open a tied up bag from the inside. We all require forces outside ourself to break the fixation of our AP. Once we have shifted numerous times, it then becomes possible to intend our own shift.

Many of the points everyone here have made won't work, unless there is someone beside you who knows how to add in a precious extra substance, to the tiny leverages those points create. It is a bad mistake to wander off alone believing your freedom or independence is all you need on this path. It doesn't work that way, unless you happen to be a nagual. In the end, it is the precious substance that shifts the AP in the right direction, not the technique.

When you say someone could you elaborate on what would qualify as that someone? Does it have to be a Guru or Nagual being?
You mentioned asking the Infinite to shift it for you, then would the Infinite be able to provided the needed extra substance? Or perhaps obtaining the aid of the spirits/inorganics? Is it worth it to ask for specific shifts, like the attainment of specific types of experiences? That way we could gradually build our resilience. Do we obtain this substance from our interactions on this forum?

Could you try to elaborate on what this substance is?

I tend to have what 'appears' to me to be more AP shifts when I am regularly performing ceremonies. If these are shifts of the AP is this increased fluidity do to my interactions with elementals/spirits/inorganics etc? 

It was just a couple of nights ago I was out making a compost pile from the sod I pulled up to make my garden. I was out after sunset, cause I new I would get a chance the next day, and wanted to get it done. Plus we have bright floodlights that come on in the back yard at night if your out there. Our neighbor has rabbits in a cage. I thought about these rabbits, and I remembered an experience I had looking into the eyes of a rabbit. Then I thought about how many experiences I have had that occurred without any effort on my part. Like I'm doing something, and boom I'm experiencing something out of the ordinary. I tried to really remember those experiences in great detail. It often felt as if there was something else, something that didn't come from me, something external that moved me.... And I got to thinking about how I am on this path to begin with. Isn't it amazing?! Something has tipped my hand in the right direction more than once in my life. What is that something, and even, why?
 

[Michael]

Too many questions Nick.

Guru or Nagual? Definitely not. Anyone who has this knowledge can share it, at the right time, and in the right way. But it is a big ask - typically you need to be karmically connected.

Could you try to elaborate on what this substance is?   No, it's too difficult to explain in words.

AP shifts in ceremonies? Ceremonies are an important refuge for shamans, but they tend to be opportunities to revisit AP shifts that have been previously attained. Interactions with spirits in ceremonies have to be of the right kind. Increasing fluidity is probably due to exercising previous AP shifts. But there are big ceremonies - they are somewhat different altogether, and can take weeks or months to complete.

I'll look at the rest later...

[Taimyr]

Actually, I never think about freedom or independence in relation to spiritual path. What I care about is becoming more aware, starting to register more and more of something that is unkown. It does happen slowly. For an example, recently I have started to notice how I create reality. Even everything that I think about, has an effect to the whole. I have noticed instant changes in the course of action, in relation how I think about things. One door closes, another opens, the reality is not a fixed, rigid thing, instead it's quite fluid and can change fast    hard to explain, but very interesting to observe.

But I will add another, that it is nearly impossible for an aspirant on the path to shift their own AP. It is like trying to open a tied up bag from the inside. We all require forces outside ourself to break the fixation of our AP. Once we have shifted numerous times, it then becomes possible to intend our own shift.

Many of the points everyone here have made won't work, unless there is someone beside you who knows how to add in a precious extra substance, to the tiny leverages those points create. It is a bad mistake to wander off alone believing your freedom or independence is all you need on this path. It doesn't work that way, unless you happen to be a nagual. In the end, it is the precious substance that shifts the AP in the right direction, not the technique.

[Michael]

You mentioned asking the Infinite to shift it for you, then would the Infinite be able to provided the needed extra substance?

In theory yes, but usually only a nagual can access this without initiation - I mean that's basically what nagual means, one who can access instinctively. Once any normal person has been initiated into how this is done, then that's how it is done from that point on. It's not simple. In the Mahabharata that I'm reading, currently the Pandavas, who are exceptional beings in their own right, still require the presence of the rishi, Lomasa-muni, to add that extra substance on their yatra to all the tirthas of India.

Or perhaps obtaining the aid of the spirits/inorganics?

No, I don't think it works that way with them - they are beings of the non-physical world, but even the most advanced are are rarely on the path. They tend to be along the path. They help, but you need access to the very top beings for such a request. I'm not aware of any legitimate tales of human aspirants that have used spirits of any kind for this special kind of energy.

Is it worth it to ask for specific shifts, like the attainment of specific types of experiences?

Absolutely. But it's best to keep the requests general - concentrate on principle, instead of tying it down in too much detail. You can certainly ask for detailed requests, but when we are speaking of shifts of knowledge, we have to leave a lot of freedom to the provider to offer us what we need in that direction rather than us prescribing specifics. This is where spirits can be useful - requesting shifts. They are very good at that. Just remember, the extra substance I spoke of, was not about inducing a shift, but maximising it's impact, and cohesifying the achieved position as a 'silent protector'.

Do we obtain this substance from our interactions on this forum?

Yes. That's why the forum was set up. It's why groupings of aspirants have been set up since time immemorial. Gurdjieff was particularly interested in the generation of this special substance, and examined it in detail. He even set up his institute to generate sufficient quantities of this substance to alter the course of humanity and the earth - a grand ambition for a grandly ambitious man. It failed of course, much to his despair, but that is another story. It still produced sufficient to alter the lives of many people.

It was just a couple of nights ago I was out making a compost pile from the sod I pulled up to make my garden. I was out after sunset, cause I new I would get a chance the next day, and wanted to get it done. Plus we have bright floodlights that come on in the back yard at night if your out there. Our neighbor has rabbits in a cage. I thought about these rabbits, and I remembered an experience I had looking into the eyes of a rabbit. Then I thought about how many experiences I have had that occurred without any effort on my part. Like I'm doing something, and boom I'm experiencing something out of the ordinary. I tried to really remember those experiences in great detail. It often felt as if there was something else, something that didn't come from me, something external that moved me.... And I got to thinking about how I am on this path to begin with. Isn't it amazing?!

These are small realisation-shifts, which form the primary bread and butter of our path. They are critical. It is the continuous accumulation of these shifts which finally moves us into a new being.

Something has tipped my hand in the right direction more than once in my life. What is that something, and even, why?

Well, that's the old question. All I can say, is that if it's effective in your life, give it the greatest respect and reverence possible.

[Nick]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my barrage of questions. You calarified quite a bit.

One last question if you will? I have read a bit of Gurdjieff but I can not recall where he discusses this substance. Or where he mentions his institute being for altering the course of humanity. Could you reference a book, or a quote?

As for your last comment, I do have great respect and reverence for it, and I will continue to cultivate those feelings, and attitudes. I am very greatful right now.

[Michael]

One last question if you will? I have read a bit of Gurdjieff but I can not recall where he discusses this substance. Or where he mentions his institute being for altering the course of humanity. Could you reference a book, or a quote?

Gurdjieff left clues in all sorts of odd places. In regards to the special substance - it is littered throughout his books, but I can't recall any reference I could point you to - if I recall I'll let you know.

His desire to alter the course of humanity: again you have to put snippets together from different sources. The idea of his institute as a 'machine' to manufacture this substance - that came from a book by Bennett, and an offhand comment of Gurdjieff's quoted there, that I'm unsure Bennett himself knew the significance. The core of the idea is in his teachings on reciprocal maintenance. )We have a thread on that somewhere in Soma(

[Firestarter]

Of what I know (the master of Shifting the Assemblage Point, AP) is that it is 4 known ways to move it.

1) Be involved in a serious accident, or get very ill with a high fever and a prolonged rehabilitation

2) Take psychoactive drugs, as hasch (weed), LSD, Mescalito or Psilocybin, I cannot recommend other substances even if there are, as Opium for instance (Alice in Wonderland).

3) Get nuts and after that get admitted to a in-patient Psychiatrial Ward, some day they will release you.

4) Take the stand  of an Unbending intent - and wait 20 years  - then you will have the same result as the rather quick three roads above.

Let's see. I have done #1. I survived a very high fever of 106. I determined that changed my mind in such a way I would see the world differently.

I've done #3 a couple times. The most recent, some was actually helpful to be honest.

But I'm aiming for a 5th option. I don't have 20 years.