Topic: linguistics, etymology, metaphor, analogy, simile, semiotics?

[Nick]

This is all about how we make meaning with words, signs, and symbols. I intend it to be useful in helping other understand their dreams, signs from the spirit, and the world around them in general.

Take this quote as a starting point:

“No word matters. But man forgets reality and remembers words.”
― Roger Zelazny, Lord of Light

In this thread I hope to put the first 3 of Don Miguel Ruiz's 4 agreements into practice, but in the context of the first agreement:

"Be Impeccable With Your Word."

I intend to show how our use of words can lead to assumptions we don't need to make. How to look more closely at the things we say instead of just assuming we get it. Also how our use of words and concepts can lead us to take things personally.


Will sometimes just share quotes I think are great examples of metaphor and other linguistic devices. 


"Our ordinary conceptual system, in terms of which we both think and act, is fundamentally metaphorical in nature."
George Lakoff

More from Lakoff:

"For instance, in intellectual debate the underlying metaphor is usually that argument is war (later revised as "argument is struggle"):

He won the argument.
Your claims are indefensible.
He shot down all my arguments.
His criticisms were right on target.
If you use that strategy, he'll wipe you out."

Just think, is that why it is so easy for people to get up set about their ideas being countered? First you tie your identity in with your beliefs, ideas, and general thoughts, then you think of discussion as struggle, or war. Then of course you are being attacked, not just your ideas.

If we then look to the history (etymology) of the word discussion:

discussion (n.)
mid-14c., "examination, investigation, judicial trial," from Old French discussion "discussion, examination, investigation, legal trial," from Late Latin discussionem (nominative discussio) "examination, discussion," in classical Latin, "a shaking," from discussus, past participle of discutere "strike asunder, break up," from dis- "apart" (see dis-) + quatere "to shake" (see quash). Meaning "a talking over, debating" in English first recorded mid-15c. Sense evolution in Latin appears to have been from "smash apart" to "scatter, disperse," then in post-classical times (via the mental process involved) to "investigate, examine," then to "debate."

When people engage in discussion are they always on trial? If I discuss something with you does that mean I am always striking, smashing, or trying to destroy your view?

Now lets look at concussion:

concussion (n.)
c.1400, from Latin concussionem (nominative concussio) "a shaking," noun of action from past participle stem of concutere "shake violently," from com- "together" (see com-) + quatere "to shake" (see quash). Modern brain injury sense is from 1540s.

Not only do concussion, and discussion sound similar, but they even share some etymological meaning.

[Nick]

"According to this information, it was customary in long-past centuries on Earth for every man bold enough to aspire to the right to be considered by others and to consider himself a "conscious thinker" to be instructed, while still in the early years of his responsible existence, that man has two kinds of mentation one kind, mentation by thought, expressed by words always possessing a relative meaning, and another kind, proper to all animals as well as to man, which I would call "mentation by form."
(Gurdjieff, Beelzebubs Tales to His Grandson , p. 15)"

"The second kind of mentation, that is, "mentation by form" through which, by the way, the exact meaning of all writing should be perceived and then assimilated after conscious confrontation with information previously acquired is determined in people by the conditions of geographical locality, climate, time, and in general the whole environment in which they have arisen and in which their existence has flowed up to adulthood.
Thus, in the brains of people of different races living in different geographical localities under different conditions, there arise in regard to one and the same thing or idea quite different independent forms, which during the flow of associations evoke in their being a definite sensation giving rise to a definite picturing, and this picturing is expressed by some word or other that serves only for its outer subjective expression.
That is why each word for the same thing or idea almost always acquires for people of different geographical localities and races a quite specific and entirely different so to say "inner content."
(ibid, pp. 15-16)"


However vague they are, dreams have a way of concealing themselves
and leave us no peace until they are translated into reality,
like seeds germinating underground,
sure to sprout in the search for the sunlight.
Lin Yutang

[Nick]

A mind all logic is like a knife all blade.
It makes the hand bleed that uses it.
Rabindranath Tagore

If a man does not keep pace with his companions,
perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer.
Let him step to the music her hears, however measured or far away.
Henry David Thoreau

Born originals, how comes it to pass that we die copies?
Edward Young

A man's rootage is more important than his leafage
Woodrow Wilson

[runningstream]

nice thread Nick

i do wonder if people do actually face different directions
yes words are powerful

not only in their deconstruction

also in their construction

and that dreamer brings that to life

the dancer and the danced

dancing

i cant say what that means really

i dilly dally a lot with it

its creation

going in the other direction

carrying something with the wind

and that wind is really really powerful

impeccibility with the word and with the wind

is an action which attaches itself to that power

and harnesses no thing yet blows my mind

[Michael]

Good selection of quotes. I do hold that one's choice of words is important for the purposes of building will. But I know others who employ words for a very different purpose - to release tension. Words in this case are not to be taken seriously. They are simply vehicles carrying toxic emotions out of the body.

The problem with my approach, is that I cannot employ words as a pressure valve. So how do I export pressure? Careful words results in restriction of stressful emotion, causing a dangerous churning back into the system of emotions that are best released as fast as possible - my being has to break down the toxicity of some emotions in another way, which is not always easy.

[runningstream]

i don't know

i know a good friend who is un invested can help to speak with

i would imagine some type of meditation too

energetic struggle ?

time

depends where your investment lays i imagine

and then i wonder if the wind provides provisions

in passed

and oncoming directions

also

or all of these

is faith a valid fare

if its ones own heart ?

i know a good hug can also do wonders

a company of kindred flames

its colder here

the clouds look different this week

i know i like the earth

and the stars

and stopping to appreciate it

all of those help

sometimes i feel that cold down to my bones though

and i have to shake it out somehow

[runningstream]

warmth     ideally

associating with comfort and ease

soaring on/with warmth

[Nick]

Good selection of quotes. I do hold that one's choice of words is important for the purposes of building will. But I know others who employ words for a very different purpose - to release tension. Words in this case are not to be taken seriously. They are simply vehicles carrying toxic emotions out of the body.

The problem with my approach, is that I cannot employ words as a pressure valve. So how do I export pressure? Careful words results in restriction of stressful emotion, causing a dangerous churning back into the system of emotions that are best released as fast as possible - my being has to break down the toxicity of some emotions in another way, which is not always easy.

I was never very good at deliberately employing words as a pressure valve. Any tips there?
Are you saying just let the words flow out however they come in response to the emotions felt?
What other ways does your being break down the toxicity of these emotions that are best released quickly?

I have been having problems with toxic emotion.

[Nichi]

I was never very good at deliberately employing words as a pressure valve. Any tips there?
Are you saying just let the words flow out however they come in response to the emotions felt?
What other ways does your being break down the toxicity of these emotions that are best released quickly?

I have been having problems with toxic emotion.

I know you were asking M, but I just wanted to share that for me, it has taken years of practice to remain silent if there are "toxic emotions" lurking about within me. This is not the recommended course in one's development, and I would specifically advise dear friends to "let it rip," that true friends will not hold one to words spoken during such distress.

But it has been one of my tasks to pay close attention to what I say. That, no matter what the environment or what my good intentions may be, there will inevitably be a "clean-up in aisle 4" which will need attending if I let it rip. I've learned over the years that there is a brittleness in my style which can be hurtful -- even when I'm not feeling "toxic emotions".

It's not the behavior I would recommend to a young person, but at the ripe old age of (nearly) 61, I am bound to long periods of going within...

The other side of this coin is that, the better one engages in recap and the longer one meditates, the less likely there will even be "toxic emotions". So that aspect of healing needs to happen too.

Thanks for letting me go on a bit.

[Michael]

Yes, it's a tricky one. I'm not advocating using words to export stress, but some do it naturally, and all I'm saying is that it has its advantages. So if it works for someone, then I'm reluctant to restrain it. I don't think of words sufficiently quickly enough to be able to do this technique.

The best approach to this, is to employ the mouth like a sewage hose, that sprays abuse on everything surrounding. But in fact, a little bit of this is not a bad idea for anyone.

But it is healthier to work off stress in other ways.

Yes, good question - what other ways are there?

[Nick]

Yes, it's a tricky one. I'm not advocating using words to export stress, but some do it naturally, and all I'm saying is that it has its advantages. So if it works for someone, then I'm reluctant to restrain it. I don't think of words sufficiently quickly enough to be able to do this technique.

The best approach to this, is to employ the mouth like a sewage hose, that sprays abuse on everything surrounding. But in fact, a little bit of this is not a bad idea for anyone.

But it is healthier to work off stress in other ways.

Yes, good question - what other ways are there?

Okay the first thing that came to my mind is what has worked best for me lately which is physical  exercise. Problem is having time to do exercise when the stress kicks in.

 I have also noticed that an underlying anxiety is occurring do to health problems with my stomach and arthritis (Dr. appt next Monday). Combined with frequent urination that disrupts my sleep to a sever degree.  I often awaken in the morning feeling momentarily peaceful, and as soon as I realize I have to urinate, for what is likely the 4 or 5th time that night, anxiety kicks in right away. I am usually able to quickly calm the anxiety with some deep breathing and the slowly walk to the restroom so as to not trigger the anxiety again, but this problem is more than frustrating.

The lack of sleep and pain in stomach, almost all of my joints, muscle pain from being tense all night while holding in the urine while sleeping, and interruptions from needing to pee at least once an hour, is making meditation more difficult.  I'm going to start doing more walking meditation as it is easier to tune out the urge to pee, and actually soothes some of the other pain.

The above mentioned problems put me on edge, so that it is harder to hand normal daily stress. I have found my heart seems to pound out of my chest lately in response to even small stress. Which is unusual, I remember being to a therapist years ago and her telling me I was the calmest patient she had ever had. Doubt I would get that compliment now.

Any other suggestions folks?

[Michael]

Definitely a case for the doctor - there can be so many causes, that all the symptoms have to be taken into account.

I did read a book about a man who had a lot of pain pissing, and he did multiple tests for prostrate. In the end, although all the tests showed clear, they still recommended he have an operation. Instead he tried alternative therapies even though he was a sceptic. What worked for him finally was shiatsu and five day Vipassana meditation events. I'll find the book and let you know, because he is a bit similar to you in some ways - he is a famous writer actually, although I'd never heard of him, but of course Julie had.

[Nick]

Yeah let me know about the book. For now though I'm just looking for the best ways to deal with the stress until I have a better idea of what is going on.

The stomach pains I mentioned don't seem do to the urinating. At first it was wheat, which I stopped eating, and cut out anything with gluten in it. With this eliminated I noticed I also couldn't eat dairy or nuts without pain. Nuts where the worst causing powerful explosions of almost pure liquid diarrhea. Wheat caused pain and bloating, and mushy stools. Dairy is same as wheat, but a sharper pain. I also noticed that I could not eat or drink anything even a little acidic. Which sucks cause I love spicy food, and miss caffeine. When I eliminated them from my diet I noticed the pain would only come on with sever stress, which is also when it is at its worst.

Now it comes on with even small amounts of stress, and sometimes I get the pain a little no matter what I eat, esp at breakfast with the first bite of food. Sometimes small needle like sensations in the stomach area come and go at what seem like random times. 

When the stomach pain comes at its worst the arthritis flairs up. I'm not a doctor, but after research I suspect inflammatory bowel disease, only thing that doesn't seem to fit is the frequent urination.

[Nichi]

Man, Nick, that sounds miserable.

[Nichi]

Yeah let me know about the book. For now though I'm just looking for the best ways to deal with the stress until I have a better idea of what is going on.

The stomach pains I mentioned don't seem do to the urinating. At first it was wheat, which I stopped eating, and cut out anything with gluten in it. With this eliminated I noticed I also couldn't eat dairy or nuts without pain. Nuts where the worst causing powerful explosions of almost pure liquid diarrhea. Wheat caused pain and bloating, and mushy stools. Dairy is same as wheat, but a sharper pain. I also noticed that I could not eat or drink anything even a little acidic. Which sucks cause I love spicy food, and miss caffeine. When I eliminated them from my diet I noticed the pain would only come on with sever stress, which is also when it is at its worst.

Now it comes on with even small amounts of stress, and sometimes I get the pain a little no matter what I eat, esp at breakfast with the first bite of food. Sometimes small needle like sensations in the stomach area come and go at what seem like random times. 

When the stomach pain comes at its worst the arthritis flairs up. I'm not a doctor, but after research I suspect inflammatory bowel disease, only thing that doesn't seem to fit is the frequent urination.

How are you feeling, Nick?