Topic: jesus and the toltec path

[Firestarter]

since we have been discussing jesus and the gospels, i have noticed some do seem to believe in jesus, but many of us walk the toltec path, or say employ don juan teachings and the like. so i was wondering, for those who do believe, how does jesus `fit` with the teachings of don juan? very interested in everyones take on this.

[Michael]

Well I'll tell you my story. I was brought up as a Catholic, in nun's and brother's schools. I was even an alter boy.

I never could get any traction on the whole thing - the bible, the mass, the catechism, the horror stories of communism, the nuns in their black habits and the priests in their gaga gear, all the nightmarish statues of Jesus and the gooey ones of Mary.

As I grew older all that Christian stuff seemed remote from my life - a dark place somewhere over there and irrelevant.

Once I came across the Toltec material, and the words of Don Juan, I came to an astounding realisation that had never presented to me from the Christian push: if I were to follow some of DJ's exercises and attitudes, this would change me internally for life. That was a very exciting prospect for a young man like me.

Christianity had never addressed me this way. Toltec was a path of trying out some actual practices, and watching what happened to me as a consequence. Christianity was a belief system, not a change path. Sure you might be changed by your beliefs, but that was not a strategic and dedicated purpose in Christianity, as it was in Toltec.

After I had changed, and decided I found the changes profound, I returned to the bible and reread it, in fact most of it. I then found it quite fascinating, with many understandings that were not promoted by Christianity. So that was somewhat intriguing.

But the effect, was what finally caused me to drop the whole thing. By this time I was also investigating similarly many religions, so was able to contrast the mood underpinning each tradition. This allowed me to recognise Christianity as a dark and dank etheric place. It actually revolted me, and still does. This is largely due to its European influence, because all of Europe, especially central and western Europe, gives me a similar feeling. It was full of contorted, suffocating and depressing feelings, and sticks in my mind like a huge black cloud of smog, that people live under. I feel the same about the heavy buildings, the stuffy cultural vibes, the pathetic gardens, the pompous classical music, and Christianity epitomises the worst of all that.

Of course there are some things I love in European culture, and some things I admire in Christianity, but when I compare it to the open fun-loving free-air colourful and vibrant traditions of Asia and other areas of the world, I just can't believe any soul would choose to subject themselves to existing in such a dank smelly armpit of spiritual mood.

The very word scripture makes my toes curl up.

[Nichi]

.....I just can't believe any soul would choose to subject themselves to existing in such a dank smelly armpit of spiritual mood.

The very word scripture makes my toes curl up.

Amen.

[Firestarter]

I think the hard part for me, is say the big posts of scriptures I posted. The old jewish laws where women could be executed, or like the one where a man rapes a woman, he has to marry her, and cannot divorce her. Why would the woman wish to be married to a man who raped her? And then I could say understand the teachings of Jesus per se, but then the apostle paul came along, and said women had to be silent in church and the like. So for me, I want to like the teachings of Jesus, but when I read these scary scriptures I am at a loss. But the main thing for me is only christians can be saved. So like, what about all the people who subscribe to other religions?

I did have a christian friend of mine message me on facebook cause this is before the does god exist group became closed, and i popped up posting on a thread (thanks facebook). So I explained to her nicely, I appreciate her path, but my main grievance is all these good people, who would go into a hell. All the hindu, muslim, buddhist, et al, what about them? She did not respond and that ended the discussion. This is one of the things christians cannot answer for me, cause I think in turn, they have issues with this too. Christ saves, but others are not saved if they dont believe or worship differently. I did go to sunday school when young, but this is what really caused me to take a different road, looking for the answer to this dilemma. Sure christianity could say the answer is to minister to others, and convert them, but obviously, not all would believe, and this is also based on culture, and majority rules in many countries. Most people will subscribe to the religion of a country by the masses. So say people in asia with shinto and buddhism and taoism, what about them? So I do wish somehow the jesus question could be resolved. Do I think he existed? Yes, divine, I dont know. But even say a pacifist like jesus, I dont think hed even want a bunch of people going to hell just cause they didnt believe in him.

[Nichi]

So I do wish somehow the jesus question could be resolved.

How would it be resolved?  By dropping the 'hell' idea? How could they then execute the idea, or erase the dark ages karma from their legacy?

[Firestarter]

How would it be resolved?  By dropping the 'hell' idea? How could they then execute the idea, or erase the dark ages karma from their legacy?

Yes that would be wonderful!

[Jahn]

Interesting topic. As very young I went to church with my father and I found it very nice in the church. I felt the strength that Jesus must have had (impact we say today), making all these peoples build churches and gather them once a week 2000 years after he was gone.

In my teens I became interested in all "deep stuff", reading Herman Hesse, Dostojevsky, Salinger and what I could find about other religions. I still have two books from the High School Library, the book about Tao and the book about the Upanishades.

I met a girl that was into some deeper stuff and I got a member of Arcanum. They sent a monthly piece of articles written on typewriter. It was a mix of water and wine. In Arcanum  http://www.worldcat.org/title/brevcirkeln-arcanum-medlemsblad/oclc/185279448?referer=di&ht=edition you could read about Madame Blavatsky, known Indian Gurus, Shamanism, Rosicrucians, Castaneda and just everything that we now call New Age, together with some info on seminars and actual events.

When I left home in 1975 I had read all books that Castaneda had written so far and was intrigued how right on spot Don Juan teachings was. A pity though, with all that focus on power plants in the books. That made my friend and me inclined to test it, together with other psychoactive drugs. I could have done better without that stuff.
 
As we all know by now, it is a great different from the teachings of Jesus and what Christianity preaches. With the new lens that Don Juan provided it was clear that something went wrong with the original teachings from Jesus.

Hell btw, has been redefined (by the Protestant church in Sweden) as a life without the presence of God.

[Nichi]

Ellen, I haven't addressed this question, though it is interesting, because I understand it to be addressed to believers or at least former believers.

so i was wondering, for those who do believe, how does jesus `fit` with the teachings of don juan?

I had the sparsest exposure to Lutheranism, but it never really took, and I reveled in giving my Confirmation teacher the hardest possible time at age 12, arguing and debating and such.  The family was never consistent in church-going: my biological father only seemed to take an interest in it in the times he was attempting sobriety. The hypocrisy and feigned remorse consistent with his attendance was glaringly apparent even to me-the-young-child.

My mother, brother, and I eventually moved in with my grandparents, and I was fascinated with my grandfather's expressed agnosticism. The biological family and my grandfather's household actually did entertain discussions of epistemology. How-can-we-KNOW was frequently bandied about.

In my 20's, when I was in college taking sociology, philosophy, literature, and women's studies, I had an interest in the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic point of view, mostly as it formed the basis of western misogyny. Via that interest I did biblical text-reading. Likewise, if one does any serious Western literature-reading, it behooves one to be a little familiar with 2 things: Shakespeare and the Bible.

As a spiritualist in my 30's, I had to widen my tolerance a bit, because they assimilated something they called "Christ Consciousness". In that motif, Jesus was considered an ascended master, along with many others. I was far more interested/in sync with Kuan Yin there than with Jesus.

By the time I read Castaneda seriously, though, "Jesus" was long excised from my mind as any sort of feature of my path. And likely, I could say that he never was part of my world.

It was all S/spirit for me.

[Taimyr]

Ok, here's my take.

Technically Jesus tought the same thing as toltec path, spiritual evolution.

Toltecs started their journey as humans, growing upwards bit by bit, changed by their teachers.

Jesus came from already above, he was more than a human already. Maybe he had a time of forgetfulness, but then he started to remember where he is from. He was from "elsewhere". Most of us on a spiritual path, we are born only as humans and this is where we start our journey of awareness.

So, as much as I understand Jesus came from somewhere where the toltecs intended to go. Jesus had already been there, but toltecs didn't know for sure where they are going and if they are successful in it.

The wasy Jesus spoke, may sound a bit odd, but it must have been suitable to that specific time. Words are different but the meaning is same.

[Firestarter]

By the time I read Castaneda seriously, though, "Jesus" was long excised from my mind as any sort of feature of my path. And likely, I could say that he never was part of my world.

It was all S/spirit for me.

Right. And to me the thing is, if One gets on the toltec path, follows the teachings of don juan, I find it interesting they would see parallels to this. Heaven and Hell vs the Eagle eating awareness? Christianity does not teach in losing awareness. You are 'aware' whether in heaven or hell. Some say you 'sleep' til judgment day (this primarily seventh day aventists), but others say up or down, that is what happens.

And I do wonder a bit, when you see old paintings of hell which have been done, how did this torment and ugliness get imbedded into the psyche of the artist? Why such a state? This to me is a big part for me, The "Good and Loving God," sending a good chunk of his creation to such a place. I dont think there is much anyone can do 'wrong' to deserve that for an eternity. And this is based on belief per se. You believe wrong, you dont form an agreement to this religiosity, this is what occurs.

The toltec teaches you lose awareness, if not impeccable, if not transformed. This is very different end game. Therefore I dont see how Jesus fits in the teachings of don Juan.

Tho I differ with Michael on transformation. Any spiritual path can transform a person. I see there are those who christianity changed them into being better people per se. They do exist. But then there are those it made more bigoted, self-righteous. So really, it is up to the individual, their own transformation process, and what they do with it.

[Firestarter]

[Nichi]

These were the Zeitgeist of the time. A European sickness.

[Michael]

So, as much as I understand Jesus came from somewhere where the toltecs intended to go. Jesus had already been there, but toltecs didn't know for sure where they are going and if they are successful in it.

The story of Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Don Juan and the Toltecs, are just that - stories. There is no validation available that either of these stories are fact. The question for us, is whether the story is useful. There is no validation that Jesus and Kishna came from 'above' as avataras, or that Buddha or Don Juan achieved or knew what they were doing. It is all about how useful their stories are for us in making our own journey.

You can't say the Toltecs didn't know where they were going, but you can say they became aware, as per their story, that there is no single place of arrival. This is one of the errors of popular thinking on religions - that ultimately they are all the same. You can say 'spiritual evolution', but that doesn't in itself mean anything specific.

My own journey has shown me that all religions lead to different places. We tend to think that humanity is this diverse array which when subjected to spiritual evolution, hone in on a single point on the horizon, a final point of 'arrival'. My realisations have shown me that it is precisely the opposite, that basically humanity is all the same - you realise this the further you progress on the path - and that spiritual development releases them into an infinite array of possibilities.

This means you need to be careful what path you take, because they don't merge in the end, they diverge. That doesn't mean you can't take parts of many paths, because in the end we are all following our own path.

What you do need to do though, is find the tools and steps. They have to resonate with your spirit, but if you choose a path that makes you feel good, but doesn't produce the goods, then you are up shit creek without a paddle. Far better to be hungry for knowledge than defend a position.

Basically we are alone, with only stories to advise us. Some stories hold more treasures than others.

[Firestarter]

The story of Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Don Juan and the Toltecs, are just that - stories. There is no validation available that either of these stories are fact. The question for us, is whether the story is useful. There is no validation that Jesus and Kishna came from 'above' as avataras, or that Buddha or Don Juan achieved or knew what they were doing. It is all about how useful their stories are for us in making our own journey.

You can't say the Toltecs didn't know where they were going, but you can say they became aware, as per their story, that there is no single place of arrival. This is one of the errors of popular thinking on religions - that ultimately they are all the same. You can say 'spiritual evolution', but that doesn't in itself mean anything specific.

My own journey has shown me that all religions lead to different places. We tend to think that humanity is this diverse array which when subjected to spiritual evolution, hone in on a single point on the horizon, a final point of 'arrival'. My realisations have shown me that it is precisely the opposite, that basically humanity is all the same - you realise this the further you progress on the path - and that spiritual development releases them into an infinite array of possibilities.

This means you need to be careful what path you take, because they don't merge in the end, they diverge. That doesn't mean you can't take parts of many paths, because in the end we are all following our own path.

What you do need to do though, is find the tools and steps. They have to resonate with your spirit, but if you choose a path that makes you feel good, but doesn't produce the goods, then you are up shit creek without a paddle. Far better to be hungry for knowledge than defend a position.

Basically we are alone, with only stories to advise us. Some stories hold more treasures than others.

This is very sound advice michael and I am with you, all these religions do not lead to the same thing. But if one twists it, changes it to suit them, it still will not change the fact, they are all different, and lead to different results. I do not show jesus and the toltec comparable. I find that the toltec, going to the eagles beak, equals a loss of awareness unless we can slip thru. The christians do not say we lose awareness ever. Buddhists dont believe in a soul whereas christians do.

Now I wonder, for those who believe in jesus, and follow the teachings of don juan, I mean no offense to you who I speak. But perhaps, are you trying to be on the 'safe side' by including jesus in the toltec? Like Pascals wager, believing in Jesus, but the following the teachings of don juan, whose end result is very different and unique, not only to christianity, but other religions as well. Playing safe?

[Taimyr]

Of course, religion has nothing to do with my personal parth. Religion can take to places you don't want to be.

For an example even buddism, generally they intend emptiness, they don't see that there is something worth intending behind emptiness. So, what you intend, that is what you get if your intent is strong...

Btw -- Bible was before religion of christianity. Somehow some keep talking about christianity as if it was already there with Jesus and the Bible.

My own journey has shown me that all religions lead to different places. We tend to think that humanity is this diverse array which when subjected to spiritual evolution, hone in on a single point on the horizon, a final point of 'arrival'. My realisations have shown me that it is precisely the opposite, that basically humanity is all the same - you realise this the further you progress on the path - and that spiritual development releases them into an infinite array of possibilities.

This means you need to be careful what path you take, because they don't merge in the end, they diverge. That doesn't mean you can't take parts of many paths, because in the end we are all following our own path.

What you do need to do though, is find the tools and steps. They have to resonate with your spirit, but if you choose a path that makes you feel good, but doesn't produce the goods, then you are up shit creek without a paddle. Far better to be hungry for knowledge than defend a position.

Basically we are alone, with only stories to advise us. Some stories hold more treasures than others.