Topic: Quotes by George Gurdjieff

[Jennifer-]

It is the greatest mistake to think that man is always one and the same. A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing. He seldom remains the same even for half an hour.

-=-=-

A man may be born, but in order to be born he must first die, and in order to die he must first awake.

-=-=-

Self-observation brings man to the realization of the necessity of self-change. And in observing himself a man notices that self-observation itself brings about certain changes in his inner processes. He begins to understand that self-observation is an instrument of self-change, a means of awakening.

-=-=-

Without self knowledge, without understanding the working and functions of his machine, man cannot be free, he cannot govern himself and he will always remain a slave.

[Jennifer-]

Imagine that we are sitting here talking of religions and that the maid Masha hears our conversation. She, of course, understands it in her own way and she repeats what she has understood to the porter Ivan. The porter Ivan again understands it in his own way and he repeats what he has understood to the coachman Peter next door. The coachman Peter goes to the country and recounts in the village what the gentry talk about in town. Do you think that what he recounts will at all resemble what we said? This is precisely the relation between existing religions and that which was their basis. You get teachings, traditions, prayers, rites, not at fifth but at twenty-fifth hand, and, of course, almost everything has been distorted beyond recognition and everything essential forgotten long ago.

-=-=-

Of the desires expressed
the one which is most right
is the desire to be 'master of oneself',
because without this nothing else is possible.

-=-=-

One thing alone is certain, that man's slavery grows and increases.
Man is becoming a willing slave. He no longer needs chains.
He begins to grow fond of his slavery, to be proud of it.
And this is the most terrible thing that can happen to a man.

-=-=-

Certain teachings compare man to a house of four rooms.
Man lives in one room, the smallest and poorest of all, and until he is told of it, he does not suspect the existence of the other rooms which are full of treasures.
When he does learn of this he begins to seek the keys to these rooms and especially the fourth, the most important, room.
And when a man has found his way into this room he really becomes the master of his house, for only then does the house belong to him wholly and forever.

-=-=-

A very important moment in the work on oneself is when a man begins to distinguish his personality and his essence.
A man's real I, his individuality, can grow only from his essence. It can be said that a man's individuality is his essence, grown up, mature.
But in order to enable essence to grow up, it is first of all necessary to weaken the constant pressure of personality upon it, because the obstacles to the growth of essence are contained in personality.

[Josh]

"Fusion, inner unity, is obtained by means of 'friction,' by the struggle between 'yes' and 'no' in man. If a man lives without inner struggle, if everything happens to him without opposition, if he goes wherever he is drawn or wherever the wind blows, he will remain such as he is. But if a struggle begins in him, and particularly if there is a definite line in this struggle, then, gradually, permanent traits begin to form themselves, he begins to 'crystallize.' But crystallization is possible on a right foundation and it is possible on a wrong foundation. 'Friction,' the struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' can easily take place on the wrong foundation. For instance, a fanatical belief in some or other idea, or the 'fear of sin,' can evoke a terribly intense struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' and a man may crystallize on these foundations. But this would be a wrong, incomplete development. In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering...." "In what way can one evoke the struggle between 'yes' and 'no' in oneself?" someone asked. "Sacrifice is necessary," said Gurdjieff. "If nothing is sacrificed nothing is obtained. And it is necessary to sacrifice something precious at the moment, to sacrifice for a long time and to sacrifice a great deal. But still, not forever. This must be understood because often it is not understood. Sacrifice is necessary only while the process of crystallization is going on. When crystallization is achieved, renunciations, privations, and sacrifices are no longer necessary. Then a man may have everything he wants. There are no longer any laws for him, he is a law unto himself."

[Jahn]

 Sacrifice is necessary only while the process of crystallization is going on. When crystallization is achieved, renunciations, privations, and sacrifices are no longer necessary. Then a man may have everything he wants. There are no longer any laws for him, he is a law unto himself."

That is when the command of the Warrior becomes the command of the Eagle.

Co-creating reality.

 . .

[Gunslinger]

*smiles with a good natured tease*

This is when one is effective at consciously creating one's own reality.

(Co-creating with others in agreement is part of that.)

[erik]

*smiles with a good natured tease*

This is when one is effective at consciously creating one's own reality.

(Co-creating with others in agreement is part of that.)

Eagle's reality, not one's reality.
It is you who changes to align, not Eagle.

[Gunslinger]

Eagle's reality, not one's reality.
It is you who changes to align, not Eagle.

I am accepting of that. I am not agreeing.

*smiles*

[erik]

You'll have to sacrifice.

[Gunslinger]

It is no longer necessary.  Never was.  Only in the eons of this mass belief system we've created was it believed to be necessary.  Gurdjieff grew up at the end of the era of sacrifice.  He summarized that gestalt very well.  Another being who also summarized that well was Ayn Rand, who I followed for a very long time.  She too lived at the end of that era.

So, that little voice that says, "You'll have to sacrifice," is pleading in it's last breath.  It's okay.  But its time is up.

[daphne]

So, that little voice that says, "You'll have to sacrifice," is pleading in it's last breath.  It's okay.  But its time is up.

There can be a lot of emotion held within the meaning of "sacrifice". I found it good to explore that for myself, having had parents of the genration of "sacrifice", not too mention the whole "martyr" routine..   

There is also another meaning held within that of "sacrifice" - transmutation - the change from one form to another.

[Gunslinger]

You are not taking anything on board, are you?
You are perfect as you are, pretty much complete and aligned with Eagle?
How about the mental construct you propagate?
You were shown it has deep laws, yet you keep pushing it.
Think about it for a while.

Let's agree to disagree, because I'm not going to agree to the existence of any such Eagle.  I've studied philosophy my whole life, and though I'm not familiar with Gurdjief's writings in particular, I've read and studied countless others like him.

"Perfection" is a curse word in my dictionary.  There's nothing to improve upon as far as my soul or essence or whatever you want to call the energy entity that goes on after death of my body.  There is only my drive that comes from deep within my being, in my dreams, in my daily work, in my relationships, everywhere, all the time, to expand my conscious/objective awareness of everything and all that I am.  That is the nature of my being.  I never settle for what I know today. 

As far as I'm concerned, The Eagle is a mental construct of a guy that was trying to explain something that he didn't understand.  I've never heard nor read anywhere else but in Castaneda's writings of any independent, contemporary or prior source for the Eagle.  I've read and heard that some others have seen it in events subsequent to the publishing of those works by Castaneda.  I've also read and heard other stories written thousands of times for 7000 years of people who have claimed to see God, or The Gods. That's okay.  I haven't, and until I do, I'm going to accept their visions as they are, but not necessarily agree with them. 

Eric, other people may agree with you.  In my soul, in all my searchings, all my study, all my drama, trauma, feelings, journeying, soul searching, and dreaming, I have never seen god, nor the eagle.  Everything I've said here I have either validated myself, or I've asked other people what they think or feel about it.  The only god I've seen is the one that looks back at me from the mirror every morning, which is also the one that dreams every night, and begs me to write what I do, so that I'll know, really know, all of who I am.  Your gods may differ.

You say some pretty pushy, presumptive, and assumptive things to me, Eric.  Nevertheless I keep responding because I enjoy writing and thinking and searching my soul and the ethers for answers.  I put forth my views as an alternate to what's commonly accepted.  I ask not that anyone agree.  I don't even ask that they be accepted.  In most social norms, telling someone that they are wrong about their soul searching conclusion is the height of rudeness.  I don't really care about social norms, except as they grease the wheels of relationships and commerce.  I will explain, if asked, to the best of my ability.  I will say what I've seen, as long as I'm not giving anyone else's secrets away. I create my reality every moment of everyday, and I'm creating my reality here and now by drawing your questions, statements, accusations and assumptions to me.  This is so I'll understand more about what  and who I am.  In order to write even this paragraph, I have to go to places unheard of in your philosophy, my dear Horatio, places I cannot possibly explain in writing.  And, although I SEE you, I dare not say what I see because I haven't been asked.  It would be the height of intrusiveness for me to do so.  For you to say what you SEE about me would be considered rude and intrusive by most people, but you are so mistaken it doesn't really matter.  Even if were remotely true what you say about me, it still would not matter that you say it.  You have your own reasons.  You can say what you want to me, and about me.  But you don't know what you are saying.

In sum, I've thought about this and many other things.  I've searched high and low within and without myself for my own answers.  This is what I do, this searching.  This is what I am, a consciousness expanding its awareness in eternity.  You might know what that means.  I can't tell from your statements to me if you do or not.  And, you know what?  It doesn't matter.  The only thing that matters is that I'm on the top side of the grass right now. 

We disagree, for the moment.

[Gunslinger]

There can be a lot of emotion held within the meaning of "sacrifice". I found it good to explore that for myself, having had parents of the genration of "sacrifice", not too mention the whole "martyr" routine..   

There is also another meaning held within that of "sacrifice" - transmutation - the change from one form to another.

What are my emotions hooked to the word "sacrifice"? Sadness. Sadness that I've held to that belief.  Sadness that billions of people have suffered pain, death and torture for it, and do so now.  Sadness, gratitude and pride that nevertheless, my uncle and father have believed in it, practiced it, and suffered from it, for my benefit.  They thought it was right to sacrifice for me and their country, and their families.  Who am I to tell them they were wrong?  They felt it was necessary, and they are entitled to that.  In all humblness, I thank them each and every time I see them.  And I keep to my self the deep heart rending sadness I feel, knowing that it was their belief that they should suffer untold pains in sacrifice for themselves and me. 

To Them and all that came with and before them:   

Thank YOU.  It was not necessary, but you did it anyway.

 

[erik]

I've studied philosophy my whole life

Mistaking a Spiritual Path for Philosophy

http://krisraphael.com/2004/12/28/mistaking_a_spiritual_path_for_philosoph/

How fruitful would it be for two people who have never driven a car, to debate on how to drive a car? The only way to “know” how to drive a car is to “do” it. The same is true of spiritual growth.

There are many pitfalls and traps on a spiritual path, and one that trips people up is to approach a spiritual path as you would approach philosophy.

A spiritual path is a path of both being and doing. It has little to do with words, ideas, concepts, opinions and so on. It takes no words to raise our frequency of being. It takes no words to do, such as chopping wood and carrying water while engaging our awareness in self-presence.

If you find yourself wanting to debate, ponder or offer opinions, you are in a mindset that cannot give forth the critical element that is missing in philosophy – growth. Growth and transformation can only occur when we “do” the work. Evolution can only occur when we grow. Ascension can only take place when we evolve. Talking about it lulls us into believing we “know” more, when in fact we “know” nothing more. We may have some “understanding,” however we cannot “know” without the doing of our being.

It is no wonder so many fall into this trap, as philosophizing and debating is so revered, particularly in the Western world. It is part of our thick domestication.

A spiritual guide does not debate with a student. A spiritual guide may give techniques and offer some “Candy for the Reason,” (due to our domestication in modern society and its emphasis on dead knowledge, without some Candy for the Reason the mental body will soon get board and want to leave). The spiritual guide gives with the sole intent to assist the student grow (become more proficient at driving the car). However, the student must “do” the work and apply the techniques given. Mere “understanding” of the technique means nothing (you can “understand” how to drive a car, but not “know” how to drive a car.)

Some spiritual guides such as myself have the ability to “see.” Seeing the student’s life patterns, what is dragging them from behind, and what is waiting ahead of them, can assist the student get back on course. However, the course correction must be done by the student themselves, and many resist making the necessary corrections. When we do not make the necessary correction ourselves, Power may intervene and life becomes our teacher, and life is often not a very kind teacher.

In traditional ashrams and monasteries, often little to no knowledge was given to the student. Very few questions were answered, and the ones that were answered were often answered with a question. Only tasks were given that had to be “done.” It was through the “doing” that knowingness occurred.

In modern society, due to our reason’s addiction to “candy” most would not stick around if no knowledge were given. So some knowledge is given, however it is given with the caveat that the knowledge does not being “knowingness.” Only the application of the knowledge brings the necessary growth and transformation.

On an energetic level, I give dissertations to offer energetic doorways that some can pass through. The words themselves mean little. The words are only the structure. Our mental body needs a structure, particularly in the beginning. However, there comes a time when we must take the structure down. To build a tall building you need scaffolding. However, once you have built the building, the scaffolding must come down.

Too many confuse the scaffolding for the building and become attached to it. The scaffolding is the structure necessary for growth and transformation. However, it is not the growth and transformation itself. Toltec lore has a particular structure to it. The Fourth Way has a particular structure to it and so on. However, the structure is no more than that – something to facilitate growth and evolution. Do not confuse the structure for the building.

If you find yourself wanting to argue, philosophize and so on, look closely at your intent – making a “point” has nothing to do “applying” what is given. When you apply it, “do” it, you then “know” whether what is given has merit or not in terms of your growth and transformation. If you only argue or debate it, you will never “know” whether it has merit or not.

Love and Light,

Kristopher

Knowledge vs Knowingness

http://krisraphael.com/2004/12/28/knowledge_vs_knowingness/

The nagual is unstructured, the tonal is structured. The tonal organizes and structures the nagual. Knowingness is unstructured. We bring knowingness into the tonal which gives it structure and it becomes knowledge.

Having access to knowingness and having the capabililtiy of bringing knowingness into knowledge was the natural state of man. However it was lost. All we have left now in society is knowledge. Both knowingness and knowledge are necessary. The warrior strives to reconnect to that aspect of self that gives forth knowingness.

Knowingness only exists in the now. It cannot be stored, that is knowledge. Knowledge is second hand.

———–

We are taught to go to knowledge for answers. This is the wrong flow. We must go to knowingess first and then bring it into knowledge.

We go to the unstructured essence of energy first, then bring it into structure for manifestation. This is the natural flow. When one understands this they hold the secret key to bringing the full power of intent into their lives.

Love and Light,

Kristopher

[Gunslinger]

This is good stuff.  Thank you.

[Jahn]

Nay, sacrifice is the effort we put in growth and transformation. It may take more than half a life time but it is done once.

More terms for the philosopher "The Eagle" is a concept of how warriors percieve the source of human related energy. You mix with the concept of God but I am not sure they are interchangeable.

You will not be able to expand your awareness Todd unless you get to know more about your essence. You have done a lot of research but that is not the same as work on your transformation. Therefore you walk in circles and try the same reciept as before - discussing mindboggling things. This will not lead you anywhere, it has its inwoven limits.

I have studied philosophy too, and that is valuable in everyday life and in my work but completely useless in growth terms. The less philosophy the better!

  ~.