Topic: In Search of the Miraculous

[Firestarter]

A few points.

So I’m a third in. When Gurdijeff is asked about wars. He says they will never end due to planetary forces. I was also surprised his take on the moon.  He saw it quite negatively and soul sucking.

Now my own personal view, the moon is a huge topic. Now even in the tarot (which the writer was studying), the moon can be interpreted in readings as illusory, or even deceptive. But I do feel, if folks respect the moon, it will respect you back. Women esp have been working with moon magic, for thousands of years. It can be positive and working with powerful. So I was also surprised his bit surprised G. Saw it this way. Like in astrology, the sun to me is soul, the true self.  We want to develop it to its true potential. The moon is the emotional body p, deeper psyche, and receptive self. Did he take issue with women perhaps? Why so negative on the moon?

[Michael]

It's written by Ouspensky.

[Bornamber]

I feel the same way about the moon 😅. I just posted about this not too long ago. To me the sun represents true energetic self. The moon represents the false self ego that tells us stories.

On one level….sure….those stories are “real” and we are trapped in them and utilize them to do work….

But on another level that’s exactly what they are. A trap. I see it as the false reality. Maya. To be respected but not lost in. The matrix is feminine so there’s that. The tides that churn us.

I also don’t see ultimate reality as feminine or masculine but as void. I see the feminine as an energy of creation and desire and beauty that ultimately eats us over and over again bc like moths to light we keep returning to her. Love her. But oh how her beauty scalds. It’s a beautiful prison.

Not sure if that’s how G felt about the moon but its how I feel.

[Firestarter]

It's written by Ouspensky.

I know. I have his book The Fourth Way.

[Firestarter]

I feel the same way about the moon 😅. I just posted about this not too long ago. To me the sun represents true energetic self. The moon represents the false self ego that tells us stories.

On one level….sure….those stories are “real” and we are trapped in them and utilize them to do work….

But on another level that’s exactly what they are. A trap. I see it as the false reality. Maya. To be respected but not lost in. The matrix is feminine so there’s that. The tides that churn us.

I also don’t see ultimate reality as feminine or masculine but as void. I see the feminine as an energy of creation and desire and beauty that ultimately eats us over and over again bc like moths to light we keep returning to her. Love her. But oh how her beauty scalds. It’s a beautiful prison.

Not sure if that’s how G felt about the moon but its how I feel.

So let me correct on that, with an astrology perspective.

What you are describing is more connected to the ascendant in astrology. this point lines through the first house, which the house is of Self. This is the "face" we present to the world, and it can be how others see us. Now, I have even seen folks strongly identify and show traits of this sign when interacting with them. The sun is the soul. It is actually the core true self. This is where when the person is developing, they want to shift focus to that sign, and develop it's positive traits, and acknowledge it's difficuties. Then the moon is the psychic center, the innermost self. This moon rules the fourth house, which is a deep private self, which can reflect where we attain security. It can also reflect the domestic home, the childhood home, and how we mother ourselves. The mother in anyone, is influenced under the energies of the moon. Where the father figure is under the energies of Saturn. This house runs parallel to Saturn, which rules the tenth house, which can be destiny, career, and how we go out into the world to achieve our goals. But yes, the moon can be a core area where we could practice self-deception or fall under little "magical spells" which could be even self-imposed, if we are not healed.

But it was an interesting perspective Gurdijeff felt we could never be free of war due to planetary influences. Now yes, I have felt planetary influences do affect. If people can work with the energies they can achieve evolution. If they go against the grain of what these energies are trying to accomplish, we can devolve. I even read on the Trump situation in here which he will go into office today, how he had a favorable chart. But it was an interesting take. I am surprised he didn't attribute more of the issues to the ascendant, and I had not thought how souls could be trapped by the moon quite odd.

Speaking on ascendants. Bruce Lee was Sagittarius sun and ascendant. So that shows who he was, is who he projected, as these both fell in the same sign. He was a 12th house sun so doing a lot of deep inner work and working to free himself of the prison was his goal, and to free others. It all fits with his chart.

[Michael]

I know. I have his book The Fourth Way.

Yes, but I said that for a reason...

[Firestarter]

“Awakening begins when a man realizes that he is going nowhere and does not know where to go.” - Gurdijeff

[Bornamber]

My astrology teacher calls the moon “the dream catcher”…and it’s particularly the nodes of the moon that trap us in stories, the south node being past karmic influences that create the soil we bloom from and the north node … our empty hungry obsessions that have no “meat” yet … and drive us forward.

And we dance between these two poles in the stories we live by. The rest of the chart applies … of course to those stories and our nature as okay the character in them. Heck …. The whole CHART is the story but he suggests it’s
The nodal aspects of the moon that really create our personal reality tunnels.

I’ve also been “dreaming with the moon” for about a year now to learn more about this. Every night I track my dreams and then when I wake up I chart where the moon is and the influences to my dreams as a way to learn more about astrological influences.

For example …. One night I had a dream that I was not getting along with my partner and the symbol for Venus and mars dropped over our heads and I heard “this is what an opposition” feels like.

A few weeks later during the Venus mars opposition I heard my boyfriend saying exactly what we had been talking about in the dream and we broke up.

Or I’ll have a dream with an old craggy man with broken knees and look it up and the moon will be conjunct Saturn.

Or last night I was feeding hummingbirds and orchids were blooming and the moon is in Libra for me. 8th house though….not the darkest features.

But by “the dream catcher” it is not meant as the literal story playing out in our lives but the stories we tell ourselves. The aspect of our lives that we are working to wake up from. And based on that perspective it really does feel like “the moon is eating me”.  These dreams are sent by the collective, by the earth, by so many factors that I don’t have control over and they will subsume me if I don’t “wake up”.  The “wake up” part being in the Sagittarius quadrant of my chart.

My moon is buried deep in the 12th house though. Where Pluto is now playing. So my work is deep in the shadows and the subconscious…..which makes sense considering the practices I’ve gravitated towards for waking up.

Or.

Is that just another story?

Also … this practice is how I began learning I was picking up on information about other people in my dreams. Since I was setting the intent to learn about astrology via dreaming every time someone showed up in my dreams I would reach out to them. The majority of the time I have been accurately picking up on their energetic resonance. Like I’ll see someone in ceremony and reach out and they tell me they were ceremony the night before thinking about me.

I’m not sure how that relates to ASTROLOGY per se but it has taught me about the influences of the moon and how those influences could influence ME….especially if I make assumptions and don’t do reality checks.

[Bornamber]

ANOTHER reason I resonate with this idea that the moon funnels the energies of the other planets is one time when I went to a total solar eclipse … during totality it felt like my consciousness was just wiped clean…empty for a bit. Everyone I spoke to felt the same way.

Also. Let us not forgot the literal time keeping aspects of the moon. I know people call Saturn the time keeper but the moon literally controls so many rhythms on earth. Anything that has that much physical control over my body certainly feels like it’s eating me.

Although. It ALSO feels like the earth is eating me.

Also consider the moon is just reflecting light. Not creating light.

And like those aspects in US we are just blindly reflecting the consequences of the worldly influences until we can (if we can) create our own momentum.  Which … to be honest….seems almost impossible to me seeing how deep the tendrils run. And THATS why … when I see the moon I shudder. It’s not a reflection of the feminine or mommy issues … it’s ALL ASPECTS of being that I remain unaware of and have no power over.

[Firestarter]

That's interesting. Yes the moon can be troubling and in certain signs a detriment, like scoprio moon. It's funny. Gurdijeff said to end up on the moon is where one experiences "the weeping of gnashing of teeth," and that's what I have said about Mars so kind of interesting.

[Firestarter]

Btw, I got to where he speaks of the octaves and musical notes, vibrations. No way can I nail down all that meaning. That I was like "this is confusing." But I get the gist on frequency and vibration and music and the cosmos sure. But I don't think I can get what he is throwing down. But the four bodies makes sense that seems to be from other spiritualities as well. Aligning the astral body to emotional body does make sense. Tho I might differ that not all have an astral body. But course I have no proof of this.

[Firestarter]

Ok here are my questions for Michael.

He was saying man will give up pleasures but not his suffering. Or could also say habits. I had to ponder on this a lot. I don't think anyone wishes to suffer. But sure, I can see folks sometimes holding onto things which may cause. Bad marriages or relationships. Soul sucking jobs. But actually holding onto suffering. Is he saying man wants to suffer? I think the only way a person may hold onto things which cause suffering, is the hope the suffering will go away, if they put work into it. That of course doesn't always happen.

Two, when he was talking about sex center, I am going to assume he meant sacral chakra. He was saying this one can dominate (I could see that). But he confused me whether celibacy was a strength, which I am sure it is. But he was also saying later after a man has remembered himself (I think) that this didn't necessarily have to be a thing, celibacy. But what was weird to me he felt this the more dominant chakra. But I have always felt the heart chakra is more. Like if you can fix that, you can align the rest. He seems to say the same about the sacral chakra, I am assuming this he means sex center. Can you elaborate?

[Bornamber]

People DEFINITELY hold onto their suffering. I saved this a couple days ago and sent it to my ex. That’s actually why I broke up with him. People become identified with their suffering for many reasons. In his case some of the reasons why are fear. If you use suffering as an identity it can keep you from moving forward in life as an excuse … like doing hard things that make you uncomfortable in the short term.

I don’t think it’s that they want to suffer per se …. But that they perceive growth as a more painful kind of suffering. But there are many many reasons why people hold onto their suffering….plus … once again …it’s all momentum.

I think a lot of it is a matter of belief/ignorance as well. Like when someone says “well … that’s just the way I am”. And accept their misery.  Someone may see sadness and heaviness as “their personality” and not know it’s just a sensation in their body that can be transformed. In *my* belief system everything is just energy and can be transformed … but others may not have such a fluid belief system. I certainly didn’t use to. ….. but now I look at people that experience a lot of anger and fear and think “ugh…….why would you want to do that?” They just don’t know they have options 🤷‍♀️

[Firestarter]

People DEFINITELY hold onto their suffering. I saved this a couple days ago and sent it to my ex. That’s actually why I broke up with him. People become identified with their suffering for many reasons. In his case some of the reasons why are fear. If you use suffering as an identity it can keep you from moving forward in life as an excuse … like doing hard things that make you uncomfortable in the short term.

I don’t think it’s that they want to suffer per se …. But that they perceive growth as a more painful kind of suffering. But there are many many reasons why people hold onto their suffering….plus … once again …it’s all momentum.

I think a lot of it is a matter of belief/ignorance as well. Like when someone says “well … that’s just the way I am”. And accept their misery.  Someone may see sadness and heaviness as “their personality” and not know it’s just a sensation in their body that can be transformed. In *my* belief system everything is just energy and can be transformed … but others may not have such a fluid belief system. I certainly didn’t use to. ….. but now I look at people that experience a lot of anger and fear and think “ugh…….why would you want to do that?” They just don’t know they have options 🤷‍♀️

I think that may be so. The karmic was like that. Like he would say "I'm not happy" like in general, and somehow act like it was MY JOB to make him happy. But we know that. A person may make you happy, but they can only go so far. Deep seated loathing for one's life, another perwson cannot fix that.  But like when he would complain about his job or health, I would try to point out positives, like on job. He lives where he works and doesn't have to pay rent, utilities, wi-fi, he would just sit there with a pained face like his life was so terrible. He had NO bills outstanding. Just whining and complaining about his life all the time. I would leave there like...the bitching I endured how he hates his life so much. I was over it. It was no wonder he tried to get me to come back for ten months. He needed a sounding board to bitch to. I was over it by then. Totally over it.

[Firestarter]

Wow ok!

So I’m toward the end. Gurdijeff is giving hard warnings on evolution.  He did not seem to confident the whole of humanity to evolve.  But per things I’m seeing, and warning about:

“Are we able to say that aspirations toward unity, towards unification, can be observed in life? Nothing of the kind of course. We only see new divisions, new hostility, new misunderstandings.

So that in actual situation of humanity there is nothing that points to evolution proceeding. On the contrary when we compare humanity with a man we quite clearly see a growth of personality at the cost of essence, that is, a growth of the artificial, the unreal, and what is foreign, at the cost of the natural, the real, and what is one’s own.

Together with this we see a growth of automatism.

Contemporary culture  requires automatons. And people undoubtedly losing their acquired habits of independence and turning into automatons, into parts of machines. It is impossible to say where is the end of all this and where is the way out-

Or whether there is an end and a way out. One thing alone is certain, that man’s slavery grows and increases. Man is becoming a willing slave. He no longer needs chains. He begins to grow fond of his slavery, to be proud of it. And this is the most terrible thing that can happen to a man.”


He wrote this during the Industrial Revolution when man worked with machines. But this Era we are in, the talk of AI and Transhumanism, man may completely give into this.