Topic: Bleeding Alone

[nichi]

Don Juan said that the nagual Elias had explained to him that what distinguishes normal people is that we share a metaphorical dagger: the concerns of our self-reflection.  With this dagger, we cut ourselves and bleed; and the job of our chains of self-reflection is
to give us the feeling that we are bleeding together, that we are sharing something wonderful: our humanity.  But if we were to examine it, we would discover that we are bleeding alone; that we are not sharing anything; that all we are doing is toying with our
manageable, unreal, man-made self-reflection.
   "Sorcerers are no longer in the world of daily affairs," don Juan went on, "because they are no longer prey to their self-reflection."

The Descent of the Spirit
THE POWER OF SILENCE
Carlos Castaneda

I think there is something to this, but I've never entirely understood it.

[Jennifer-]

Don Juan said that the nagual Elias had explained to him that what distinguishes normal people is that we share a metaphorical dagger: the concerns of our self-reflection.  With this dagger, we cut ourselves and bleed; and the job of our chains of self-reflection is
to give us the feeling that we are bleeding together, that we are sharing something wonderful: our humanity.  But if we were to examine it, we would discover that we are bleeding alone; that we are not sharing anything; that all we are doing is toying with our
manageable, unreal, man-made self-reflection.
   "Sorcerers are no longer in the world of daily affairs," don Juan went on, "because they are no longer prey to their self-reflection."

The Descent of the Spirit
THE POWER OF SILENCE
Carlos Castaneda

I think there is something to this, but I've never entirely understood it.

I took it to mean 'average'' humans gather together as a conditioned/combined  race grasping onto the edge of society twisting it together they share the experience of the self inflicted illusion considered life. Which in my understanding completely rips us from our primal beings.

Where as a sorcerer understands the need to shed trained reason.


I often twist things to fit my understanding when reading another's words, is this close to what you read as well? I like having an chance to question my logic.  

[nichi]

I often twist things to fit my understanding when reading another's words, is this close to what you read as well? I like having an chance to question my logic.  

Yesss.... This passage seems to be saying that the point of pain is our imagined connection to each other. I wonder if that's really true. I'm thinking, if it were really true, then perhaps we wouldn't inflict it on each other? Or is it in the infliction of it on each other that we create our imagined ties?

I get the part about self-reflection. Perhaps he is saying that we can never know another's pain, and that even our own is a function of our self-reflection.

Like I said, something bubbles under the surface with this one for me.

[Josh]

With this dagger, we cut ourselves and bleed; and the job of our chains of self-reflection is
to give us the feeling that we are bleeding together, that we are sharing something wonderful: our humanity. 
   "Sorcerers are no longer in the world of daily affairs," don Juan went on, "because they are no longer prey to their self-reflection."

I think there is something to this, but I've never entirely understood it.

In the world of daily affairs, people are at the mercy of their self-reflection and thus their activities are a result of its effects.. they dont act, they react.  It is the common bond of society to share in this endeavor of self-reflection and all it entails, even though the activity itself is a closed loop within the own mind of each person.  The concerns of self-reflection take precedence, and they are concerns that are shared amongst each person within society at large.  Since everyone else is also engrossed in self-pity and self-importance and concerns of self-reflection, it has a sense of group effort, a sense of belonging to something bigger.

When you break those chains, the concerns of self-reflection cease to be a driving force in your life and then you have some space to work with.  At the same time, that seemingly common bond is also lost.  That entire world of activity loses its hold over perception as its continuity is broken.

[Jennifer-]

I love this! I did take it completely different then you! I wonder often how much I actually do that and if either of us is close to what the writer intented in the first place.. which leads to anything else read. Its sort of mind twisting in itself for me.

the concerns of our self-reflection

.. in Jen thought.. LOL concerns with how we see others and how they see us and how we see ourselves= social trained reason.

we are sharing something wonderful: our humanity.

... how we uphold our beliefs by constantly pushing them on each other, and saying yes! I know isnt it terrible.. or isnt it beautiful... Im this or that due to what Ive learned.

we are bleeding alone; that we are not sharing anything; that all we are doing is toying with our
manageable, unreal, man-made self-reflection

..... controlled folly.

because they are no longer prey to their self-reflection."

no ego to uphold/hold back.



I do beleive we are connected to each other, just beyond the ways of reason.

[nichi]

(Did something fancy and split off this topic from "Don Juan Quotes", since we were looking at it together.)

[nichi]

Okay then, between what Joshua and Raven are saying, the imagined connection via this "bleeding" or if I dare say the word "sympathy", is folly.
And, as Joshua is saying, the whole problem is solved by either
1.) surceasing from self-reflection, or
2.) being not of the world, or of the "consensual reality" Jen is referring to.

So -- after we have accomplished this, I still experience connection with certain others.
Jen, I see you do too  -- how about you, Joshua?
Of what (if you experience connection too) is this connection comprised? 

[Jennifer-]

I feel connections like a vibration in my stomach, there really isnt a thought of social reason.. I seem to have better relationships with those that share my same sort of vibration but also have much to learn from those that dont so I find myself interested in all.

[nichi]

Yes, mine start in the gut too, then I am led forward at the chest. By then, it always seems that the eyes knew all along -- and the crown too, of course.
Personally, I think it's all spirit and spirit's design, and who can explain that? heheh

But then, in a flash, one can be on the shores of Sri Lanka and see the waves coming!

Maybe that's the primal self, Jen.

[niamhspark]

Like the quote says, this seems related to self-reflection. Since this is more based on self-image (or even self-imagination), then the connection we may feel to "the world" is only our self-reflections connection. Snce self-reflection is how we see ourselves, it's like we're watching a movie from a reel, with ourselves in the movie. The movie as a whole is the "world." We're but an actor in the movie, of many actors. We feel a connection to the other actors. The scenery, the plot, the script. But the whole thing is an image, or even a mirage.

Since we're basing our emotions off this whole 'movie,' we're not seeing, really seeing, it's actually 'we' who is sitting in the theatre, in a seat, watching the whole thing, interpreting what it all means. Seeing how we relate to the whole. But it's not the same thing as what's real, what's whole.

And perhaps when we realize we're watching the whole movie (world) alone, we are bleeding alone. When we die, we don't take everyone in the movie, or the scenery, or script, or plot, with us. Just ourselves.

[erik]

And perhaps when we realize we're watching the whole movie (world) alone, we are bleeding alone. When we die, we don't take everyone in the movie, or the scenery, or script, or plot, with us. Just ourselves.

And we let others bleed alone...?

Remember the story about how DJ's son died? What did DJ do?

Instead of going hysterical looking at his only son bleeding and dying, he shifted his consciousness and watched how that sparkling and bristling energy departed from the mangled body of his son.

Raven, what is it you call primal consciousness? I might be making wrong associations here...

[niamhspark]

And we let others bleed alone...?

I dont think so. I think we're capable of reaching the actual person behind the mask of the fellow actors.

Remember the story about how DJ's son died? What did DJ do?

Instead of going hysterical looking at his only son bleeding and dying, he shifted his consciousness and watched how that sparkling and bristling energy departed from the mangled body of his son.

He saw the difference between life and death, maybe?

[erik]

That sparkling and bristling energy is human consciousness. When our cocoon is broken - life ends - it leaves. DJ described it as a stunning sight.

[erik]

I dont think so. I think we're capable of reaching the actual person behind the mask of the fellow actors.

There are hopeless cases walking around as well.

[niamhspark]

There are hopeless cases walking around as well.

Oh definitely. Because they've associated with their own "actor" and are attached to their own role, this is why.