Author Topic: Astral time  (Read 268 times)

Offline Michael

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Astral time
« on: December 16, 2007, 12:52:16 PM »
Time in the physical world follows an acceptable process. To me there are two parts - one is the movement of the sun around the earth (or the earth around the sun, depending which point you decide to make the ‘reference’). That gives us an obvious ‘count’ of time. Many studies have been done of people who are placed in rooms with artificially controlled light, or no light, for long stretches. It is very disorienting - we do viscerally reference the passage of the sun, in our concept of time.

The other is the ageing process. Regardless of the sun’s cycles, we know time passes because things deteriorate - entropy. I know that, in itself, in abstract theory, could be said to have nothing to do with time, but from our temporal referencing point of view, it is a blatant and obvious confirmation that time does exist.

There are many clever examples of the relativity of time, but I see that as more how we perceive time, not its seemingly independent existence. eg. if you are sitting on a stove, and time is passing very slowly, or sitting with your lover and it whips by fast - your watch is still telling you it’s consistent pattern - that of the sun. Nonetheless the relativity of time is curious addition to the complexity of this issue.

The question arises, does time exist in Astral?

I am going to try to explain how I am coming to see this, based on my experiences. Like many here I have explored the dream world, and its relationship to the physical world, in considerable detail. This has led me to ponder a conceptual structure. I am in no way saying this is correct. It is simply my small attempt to get a grasp on this with my mind - which is not really that necessary, but my mind likes to play with this type of thing.

There is another version of time, which I want to use here. See it as a conduit, a channel of emanation from the source of the universe. not time in terms of past and future, or passage, but time as the flow of ‘events’ through the funnel of the present moment - the eternal now. Like standing on the road, watching the traffic. Out of the distance comes one vehicle after another - small, big, different colours, quiet, noisy etc. These ‘items’ manifest on the screen of our ‘now’, in a flow - this is not about the speed of time, but just the continuous manifestation. They come like nebulous clouds, forming into a final definition as they surface in our lens focus, our palette of the moment, our screen that lies wide open right here now.

Here is my working image:

Imagine you are in a theatre, watching a movie that is being beamed from behind you, onto the screen which you sit watching. Now picture your double, your astral self, sitting in your body, but looking back at the projection source.

Rudolf Steiner said that in astral, time flows in the opposite direction. I have thought on that, and have woven the idea into my own vision of time, as a way to explain some experiences. This means that ‘time’ in astral is not what we think of it in physical - not a relative velocity of change, but a series of events that stream onto our screen, coming from the most subtle nuance, picked up by our finest antennae as intuitions and visions, till there it pops into manifest reality like baby machine.

In astral, we face back to the source of the beam, because the beam streams from deep in our 3rd attention, picks up form matter in our 2nd attention, then finally is born into daylight. This is the same process we follow in our own birth. So by seeing in the astral attention, the 2nd attention, we see events that are coming to us before they manifest. That is why dreamers so often experience pre-cognitative dreams.

But don’t confuse this with past and future. In astral we can travel laterally through temporal time (which is why some say time does not exist in astral), like jumping tracks on the record player - the stylus remains in the same band, but can pick up channels from any available groove. This enables us to travel forward and backward in physical historical linear time, but doesn’t change the flow of ‘items’ from the source - changes the items, but not the flow.

Thus our double is fundamentally differently oriented to us, but we can also turn our head slightly to the projector, we do this when we ponder why something happened - whenever we strive to see into the ‘meaning’ of life - why has this happened? Whenever we ask ourselves the big rhetorical questions - not questions for answers - answers are the screen, but questions for wonder.

Mostly we sit looking into the ‘forward’ illusion of the plot. We look at the screen, and believe we are watching the future unfolding before our eyes, but it’s not, its unfolding behind our head - the screen image is only a reflection of reality, and we bind ourselves to that illusion by being trapped in the plot - we are plot-junkies. We have to pull ourselves away from the story line, and look back into the mystery of possibilities.

This reminds me of one of those hero-type cartoons at the back of those old magazines. The evil guy had our hero trapped in a pit of illusion. The illusion, a dream, was being beamed to our hero while the evil guy sat at the rim of the pit and watched malevolently. Our hero knew he was imprisoned at the start, but the dream sequence began to overwhelm him - he was on a sinking ship in the ocean and he had to save some poor woman ... you know how it goes with heroes.

Well our hero was no ordinary hero. He realised the trap, and turned his gun away from the illusionary bad guy in the dream, and pointed it up into the sky, then shot. He actually shot with his illusionary gun, the light bulb that was beaming the illusion, which immediately stopped. Leaving our hero to see the disgruntled face of the real evil guy sitting at the lip of the pit. I think this hero was called Lotha or something like that - he was a magician.

By turning our head away from the plot, and to the source of emanation, we begin to cross into the being of our double, and see with its eyes, in the opposite direction of time.... back up the beam to the source of all. This then is the direction all the gods travel - not out into manifestation, but back into the centre. This is also the natural turn we go through as we grow older - we tire of the plot, and muse at the mystery.
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Offline Zamurito

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2007, 01:22:38 PM »
Resonates very nicely...

Thank you for sharing.

"Discipline is, indeed, the supreme joy of feeling reverent awe; of watching, with your mouth open, whatever is behind those secret doors."

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2007, 07:56:27 PM »
I'll throw in the air some loosely related thoughts on the subject of 'time' as I've been pondering more and more full implications of the statement 'leaves don't fall if we do not see them'.

It seems to mean that the world or at least large part of 'objective reality' is nothing but the product of human perception. Hence, we float somewhere in the vast emptiness and the thing that keeps us floating is our own consciousness and its qualities and aspects shaping our perception.

Time must then also be a product of our perception, and when I revisited Theun Mares' theory of manifestation, I found his statement that 'time is the product of perceiving the process of life' (p.316). One can deduce from Mares' ideas that when awareness approaches infinity, time approaches zero and the purpose of life ceases.

Time appears for the first time at the moment the Unspeakable stirs for the first time and initiates the fourfold process of manifestation. Then unknown starts to be separated from known - only to be experienced in the process of life and re-integrated as known.

On the other hand, taking dependence of time on perception as granted, one can get closer to outlining on what that perception depends on. At that point Mares reaches the most intriguing part for me - dimensions of existence. Putting perception as a bedrock of adopted approach, these dimensions turn out to be awareness-centric. :)

According to Mares, DJ gave CC a sevenfold description of man and Universe. In that system man has eight points: the nagual and the tonal with its six attributes: will, seeing, dreaming, feeling, talking and reason. Tonal (that exists in nagual) has six attributes and together they form seven - that's the basis of sevenfold description. Qabbalah provides 10-fold description of man and Universe. There exist also three-fold and five-fold descriptions of man and Universe.

Anyhow, there's the source: Theun Mares, Cry of the Eagle, mainly pp.316-318.

Offline Michael

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2007, 09:03:56 PM »
I want to link this to the previous discussion on time that had a lot of good material in it:

What is time to you?

Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2007, 02:28:18 AM »
Good posts, Michael.

In working with my own double, one of the very first things he ever communicated to me through silent knowing was, "You humans know nothing about time."  Over the years, I have found out just how true that is.

As you yourself said, I think time is a byproduct of perception, or at least an intrinsic "element" of perception.  When I've traveled in astral or journeyed with the mushroom ally, the experience of "time" is altogether different.  I would call it "timeless", or close to it.

In my own work, I have also guided folks to remember that the idea of "linear time" is largely if not wholly an illusion - which is why things like retroactive enchantment (as we were discussing in another thread) are possible.  In quantum, it's recognized that everything that has ever happened, might happen, could happen or will happen... already has/is.  As humans (or animals), we seem to choose a linear "presentation" of certain events, much as you were saying about watching the plot of a movie.

Through the vessel of the double (the non-local self), we can just as easily choose other perceptions of the "past" - which, I believe, may also account for "past lives", which are or may be shifts of the assemblage point of the double from within the quantum infinite.  Not a linear progression of "lives" - at least not to the perception of the double - but a non-linear series of experiences enacted from the AP of the double.

The cool thing is that when we can begin to get a handle on this, we enable ourselves to actually begin accessing some of those "otherselves" to see what lessons we have experienced outside of time.

Hope this makes sense.  Oy...

Again - good posts.  Thanks for that!  :)
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Offline Jennifer-

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2007, 02:34:40 AM »
Quote
Della:Through the vessel of the double (the non-local self), we can just as easily choose other perceptions of the "past" - which, I believe, may also account for "past lives", which are or may be shifts of the assemblage point of the double from within the quantum infinite.  Not a linear progression of "lives" - at least not to the perception of the double - but a non-linear series of experiences enacted from the AP of the double.


Well said Della! Your ability to place words is a blessing to us all.

Im exploring this above this winter with direct focus.
Without constant complete silence meditation - samadi - we lose ourselves in the game.  MM

Offline Jennifer-

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2007, 02:37:02 AM »
So far Ive discovered that childhood memories are a bridge of sorts..
Without constant complete silence meditation - samadi - we lose ourselves in the game.  MM

Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2007, 04:46:52 AM »
So far Ive discovered that childhood memories are a bridge of sorts..

Interesting you would mention childhood memories.  I've been doing some rather extensive experimentation with that very subject.  Namely, I have been "directing" my double to incluence/instruct my childhood self so that she/I will choose the path of spirit.  Sorta ties in to the retroactive enchantment thread we were discusing elsewhere - I can point to pivotal moments in my childhood when I could have gone "either way".  One just came back to me yesterday, and resulted in a bit of a shudder.  *LOL*  Basically, in about 8th grade, I had somehow become "popular" in school as a "leader" of sorts, even though I never signed on for that position.  The result was that cheerleader tryouts had rolled around and I was being strongly encouraged to apply.

Er... NOT!

I found myself wondering yesterday as that memory returned, how my life might have been different had I gone that route... and I wonder through the eyes of my double if, in one of those infinite parallel realities where I DID go that route... how that otherSelf's life turned out.

Needless to say... I'm happy with this path, and to that end, I do what I can to reinforce it, both here in the Now, and through the quantum conundrums of the past as well.

Good luck with your work this winter.  Sounds fascinating!

Much love,
D
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Offline Muffin

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2007, 11:13:01 AM »
Time.
The other night I was dreaming. The dream was about one of those arcade-like games, where you are in a ship and you have to wade through levels and level of enemies. You are alone and there are like 20-30 times more ship coming at you shooting with bullets and lasers from every direction, and you blast back with super-duper weapons and kill all the bad guys. Well, i was in this game, shooting and blasting, when suddenly I heard a voice saying "Digital Transmission Terminated" and the dream was simply cut off. For a very short moment I wondered "What the heck, it's already time to wake up?" and I began the process of waking myself up. As soon as I got sober, my alarm started to ring above my head.
I found it really funny.  8)

Digital Transmission Terminated
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Re: Astral time
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2007, 09:03:57 PM »

I have never dreamt to be in a game - probably because I have never played one  ;D I agree that it was a funny end!

It is seldom that I have to use the alarm clock.
A normal morning I wake about an hour before I shall get up and after that I sleep in 10 to 15 minutes laps, and when I wake up between these short periods I decide at which time I shall get up. If it has been snowing for instance I must get up 10 minutes earlier and I do calculations like that.

Offline Firestarter

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2009, 04:14:08 AM »
Time is rather relevant but its still allegory of the cave so you have to buy into the whole thing - but really the 'evil guy' playing the movie isnt really an evil guy. There really is no evil either. Its just somehow the one sitting in the theatre has 'accepted' the screen and the play. But really, per the whole light and even the projectionist (this is played a bit as fight club) "all is void" and "all is empty." All forms are. The whole thing is set up.

Its really simple - one accepts their 'identity' as being real, but everyone (and in here included) accepted their 'identity' as the 'it- thing' which will cross the bridge and its just not so.

Somehow tho - we gotta see the thing which is trying to get our attention though.  That we're just an identity and that is all - a bit of an accident along the way which got created. Like our parents created us, we formed things in mind which became us, but the real one really was sitting back, and so forth.

Kinda funny how it all works out.
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Offline Firestarter

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Re: Astral time
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2023, 06:45:38 PM »
Funny reading this so many years later.

I recently had this thing come up, when journeying the astral, do not ask any of the beings "What time is it?" That's how they know you arent one of them. And also, it can distort the whole thing and cause chaos for the journey. Dreaming or meditation - dont.

Sal Dali knew this per his own Journeys. And when I met the man who sold me two paintings of his, prints, I picked this one, as well as Hallucinogenic Torreador:



I am aware of the light play and projection of everything. We can "see" cause of light. Its required to be able to "see" with the two eyes of course. And who is running the projector. Is he evil even, or is it something else? Who knows. But being "fixed" on the screen and not getting out of the seat, and living vicariously through what is played before us, and reacting in various ways does hook.

But time yes, its something in the physical, yes a construct but its something cause we live it out and are constantly "clocking" what time of day it is.

And even the wake up call numbers, we do that with "time" such as 11:11, 3:33, 2:22, and so on. All us spiritual folk pay attention to those "angel numbers" they use time to speak. We screen shot our phones and so forth. Look at the time and message.

Maybe better than the numbers, an hourglass, the original is a better representation. You tilt it and then the sands pour and it runs out. Then "flip it" and it starts, all over again. Isnt that what the Nataraja does?





"A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace, nor can he possibly leave anything to chance. A warrior actually affects the outcome of events by the force of his awareness and his unbending intent." - don Juan

 

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