Author Topic: US Elections 2008  (Read 1843 times)

Offline kaycee

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2008, 01:49:40 AM »
What a wonderful thread!!  It inspires me again to be the Soma cheerleader-in-residence.

Not because it touches lightly on politics, but because it touches deeply in my heart. 

For the record I am a non major-election voter, for the last 10 years.  I've voted a few times in local elections when and where I believed my vote would speak for something.  Once again it comes down to not fighting against.  When it became obvious to me that I was no longer voting for a candidate, but instead voting against the one I disliked the most, I stopped the battle. 
BTW Della, your post is the first time I saw "the warrior chooses her own battles".  The feeling of a perfect fit was delectable! 

What I hear in this thread are voices of the disillusioned, the irrational, the eager to learn, and those within the system.  All say different words to speak the same thing - positive change.

Each in their own way are choosing to plant a seed (whether by tree or by vote) for unity, are nurturing it with their strongest positive intent, and are determined to fight FOR it's growth. 

And by the webstrings of connection here, how is it not possible for a new web of life to be created?

Within this web there is room for all.  And there is time enough - because we care enough to take the time.

Gooooooo Soma!!!   ;D <-toothy cheerleader grin!
Luv, K

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2008, 01:53:43 AM »
What a wonderful thread!!  It inspires me again to be the Soma cheerleader-in-residence.


Geaux Kaycee!!
 :D

Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2008, 04:01:34 AM »
When it became obvious to me that I was no longer voting for a candidate, but instead voting against the one I disliked the most, I stopped the battle. 

Yup - that just about sizes it up!  *LOL*  I've often felt there should be a box on the ballot that says, "None of the above: check here." 

BTW Della, your post is the first time I saw "the warrior chooses her own battles".  The feeling of a perfect fit was delectable! 

That's been an ongoing lesson for me for years - learning to choose my battles better.  What I've really learned through it all is that there are some things I can change or affect, and there are some things where my voice is nothing more than a single grain of sand on the beach, a drop of water in the rushing river.  The bit about "choosing one's battles" is something I picked up from my SO, Wendy.  She is much more placid than I am, by nature, and one day when I was railing about global warming or the ozone or some such, she looked at me like I was nuts and said, "Girlfriend, you have to CHOOSE your battles, and if you keep choosing the ones you can't win, you're just going to get beat up and be old and defeated before your time."

Well, those words made a world of sense to me on all levels, particularly the warrior level, so now when a "battle" presents itself, I have to ask myself if it's "worthy" of my attention, or if I am just trying to divert the course of the river with a pebble.  If it's the river and the pebble scenario, I will usually find something more productive to do (meaning "more productive" to my own standards).  This morning, I'm going to trim up some bushes, harvest some chapparal (the tender new leaves have emerged), and working on a chapter for a new book I'm (slowly) trying to convince myself to write.  *heh*  Small battles, but very personal & close to home. 

Hope you're having a great weekend!  It's rainy and overcast here - and I am LOVING it!  :)
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erik

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2008, 05:15:30 AM »
Warrior choosing his/her battle is an interesting subject.

At the general level individuals have chosen their battle by incarnating here, into this world, into this particular time - where, as some US citizens here point out, they have little or no impact on what their country does at the international level (and, respectively - how and in which form it comes back to the US).

What is the battle there? To realise the inefficiency (read: hopelessness) of political process and and turn away? To realise the inefficiency and do something? To stay in the grim reality and prepare for the worst? To escape the reality? To do the job one has come to do?
Many options, many possibilities there.

At the individual level one has also many options - from trying to make this earthly life a bit more pleasant and tolerable using a tiny bit of magic, to really pushing the thing and expanding awareness as much as possible.
Again, many possibilities there.

And over and above everything - we have been granted a free will allowing us to select any battle that we like and fight it till the last breath.

Offline Quantum Shaman

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2008, 06:05:24 AM »
Warrior choosing his/her battle is an interesting subject.

What is the battle there? To realise the inefficiency (read: hopelessness) of political process and and turn away? To realise the inefficiency and do something? To stay in the grim reality and prepare for the worst? To escape the reality? To do the job one has come to do?

For me, the "battle" is in truly realizing and *seeing* and being able to accept that there are some things I can change, and some things I can't.  What's that old prayer:

"God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference."

When I stand in the assemblage point of my own totality (which happens on occasion), what is *seen* is that I cannot change the folly of man. Simply.  Cannot.  Change.  It.  I can only choose my "battle" in this case, to be one that circumvents as much of the folly as possible.  Your comment above, re "the hopelessness of political process" is a statement I find to be very true, particularly at the national level.  When we were a tribal society, the council of elders (or whatever passed for one) actually had the power to make policy and enforce it.  The "law" was more personal and therefore more effective.  The tribal elders were our fathers and our uncles, and the policies that issued from their edicts were usually if not always to protect the interests of the tribe while simultaneously honoring the individual's contribution.

Now, at the level of national politics... we are dealing with strangers who are so far removed from "the tribe" that there is no sense of community.  Most of the "policies" that come down from on high are not geared toward protecting the tribe, but usually if not always have some basis in monetary gain for the politicians themselves.  Granted, that is an oversimplified statement, but at the core of what I am attempting to say, I have seen it to be true.  The sense of "tribe" has become lost, and when the people no longer feel valued by their leaders, there is a tendency toward anarchy and lawlessness, which is precisely what we are seeing in this country. 

Obviously I'm just barely scraping at the tip of the tip of the iceberg, but in a nutshell that's why I have chosen NOT to engage in this particular "battle", and why I suspect many with a Toltec bent would probably be in at least mild agreement.  At this point, trying to chage the world through voting seems rather like some of the old "world peace meditations" back in the 60s.  A bunch of hippies (yes, myself included) would pick a day for a meditation, and on that day we'd all sit down for an hour or two and "visualize world peace."  (Which is now often seen on bumper stickers as "visualize whirled peas."  *LOL*)

Did it do any good?  Apparently not, for nothing has changed in the world of matter & men.  And so it started to make a LOT more sense to me to pick my "battles" closer to home.  I might not be able to bring about world peace, but I CAN feed a stray cat who wanders up on my porch.  I CAN buy a homeless man a meal and maybe in doing so give him one gram of hope for himself.  I CAN  communicate DIRECTLY with my neighbor about keeping his dogs out of the street instead of just reporting him straight to the police. 

Small battles.  Tiny ones.  But one thing that has become a recurring lesson throughout my life is that I am far better equipped to deal with the things that cross my path rather than trying to change the world in some major way.  Doesn't mean I don't admire & utterly respect those who DO become political activists or go out on the Greenpeace ships... but spirit has guided me to my own back yard.  That is where I most often choose my battles.

Thanks for a thoughtful post, Juhani. This whole thread has helped me to really see more clearly just WHY I have come to view the political arena as I do.  So it's been a very positive thing for me.   :)
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erik

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2008, 08:37:55 AM »
It is all good and reasonable, Della, and yet there have been Jesus, Buddha, Joan of Arc and others and others. Can you imagine how Jesus saw people surrounding him and how his task felt to him? Some say it took six attempts, six lives for Jesus to even convey his message.

Not really advocating people to become Jesuses and martyrs here (there are plenty of these in production in Al Qaeda brainwash factories). In these matters I just happen to belong to the camp who says at the end of all reasonable and rational arguments (be they based on seeing or not): 'And yet...'
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 03:31:43 PM by erik »

Offline Angela

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2008, 09:39:10 AM »
Ok...so Obama won South Carolina, but Hilliary is ahead nationwide.  I would love to see one or the other elected president, of course...but it would also be very cool to have them both in the White House...one as president and the other vice-president. (I wonder if they have discussed this? ;)

Who would have thought 30 years ago that such change would occur...a woman and a black man running for president...I'm stoked!!!  ;D
"If you stop seeing the world in terms of what you like and dislike, and saw things for what they truly are, in themselves, you would have a great deal more peace in your life..."

Offline Michael

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2008, 12:58:51 PM »
There is a confusion afoot here. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do it justice now, but I'll sketch the outline quickly:

It makes a huge difference whether you are viewing from the AP of the 'people of the path' or of the general public. It has been well recognised by almost all traditions, that public teachings differ markedly from the inner teachings, reserved only for those who dedicate themselves to the essence of the tradition.

General Public.

If you travel, you will notice that different places have different social vibes - some are healthier than others. The same applies to countries, with different social agreements, bringing very different moods between countries. This means that the way in which a community interacts makes a huge difference to the lives of individuals, which an individual of that community does not fully comprehend unless they travel between communities.

The current political debate that has swept Western nations, and is also becoming significant in Developing nations, is the divide between what is known as the Neo-liberal (NL) agenda (the new Right of politics - the old Right was more about status-quo structures) and the old socialist impulse, now seen more in terms of what I call 'Domain' political agenda.

Neo-liberal began after the Depression/WWII/New Deal, when Socialism finally won across the Western democracies - it is too late to go back, despite the massive effort of the Right, we still now all live in essentially socialist/humanist cultures. What came to be known as Neo-liberalism began with meetings in Europe, then got a stunning ascendancy under Reagan in the US with the snow-balling power of what the US calls Movement Conservatism (MC).

There are many associated grouping of this agenda. But the critical thing is that they had access to vast sums of money, with which they set up piles of right-wing Think Tanks. One of their primary objectives since the start was to roll back the socialist impulse, and in the US, especially the hated New Deal. They have been financially successful (if not completely culturally successful) - we now have returned in most Western democracies to 18th century distributions of wealth - 90% of wealth in the hands of 10% type of graph. There has been an engineered massive shift of wealth away from the middle ground, away from the 'Domain' we all mutually inhabit.

The most focused mechanism in this, has been the changing of language, to a NL/MC based platform, such that even when we talk of community or personal values we talk in terms identified and purposely pushed out into the public sphere - eg. 'Social Capital' instead of just 'community'.

In every country, the new right is on about personal wealth - they despise the whole concept of giving away personal wealth to foster the wealth of the shared domain. They also always want voluntary voting, because the disadvantaged/uninformed classes can't be bothered to vote. The wealthy classes know this perfectly well, and so it serves their interest to have a voluntary system. They want to do it in Australia also, but our constitution won't allow - we have compulsory voting.

The jewel in the crown of this struggle, between left and right politics in the USA, is the National Health scheme. Both sides readily admit, it is no secret believe me, that the success or scrapping of the National Health scheme will decide the final outcome of this battle. Whoever wins that one, takes all. The vehemence with which they have plotted and activated to achieve success or scrapping of this scheme, is beyond all other issues.

However, a distinct shift is being observed in Australia and the USA - a distaste for the consequences of NL/MC. Cyclone Katrina, and then the collapse of that bridge, were watersheds in a deeply felt nausea by the public for extreme right wing agendas. It is very likely the Republicans in the US have reached their use-by date. Such a revulsion to their political influence will relegate them to the sin-bin of public credibility for long enough for the major shift in global political sensibilities, brought forth by the environmental disaster sweeping the world, to make them irrelevant to the future survival of any nation.

Voluntary voting causes the dis-enfranchised classes to not vote because of two main reasons:
1. Apathy - they simply can't be bothered.
2. Cynicism - to politicians, politics, the voting system, and in fact to the entire system.

The general public should be encouraged to participate in voting and being informed of the politics of a country, as they have nothing else. Their own mechanism as community or social class for survival, is through their elected government - there is no other avenue they as a group can pursue to ensure they are not totally ripped off. Every other mechanism, is not democratic, and as such becomes another disenfranchisement, as power by vested interests always has access to leadership of all groups.

The argument that 'my personal vote is meaningless' is accurate from an isolated individual's point of view. But it becomes a tool in the hands of those seeking the lower classes to remain out of political championship. It is the same argument, of saving electricity, water, of not using plastic bags and of planting trees in one's back yard. Nothing an individual can do environmentally will make the slightest difference to the environmental catastrophes occurring around us. The only reason to be personally environmentally responsible is to 'show the flag', to participate in a ground swell, to lend one's support for a wider change - the hundredth monkey effect.

In the end, with the imminent collapse of civilisation as we know it, breathing down our necks, our only chance for survival in the worst-case scenario, will be community solutions, not individual.

People of the Path.

This is what we are really discussing in this thread. Not the general public AP, but the AP of one who is "in the world but not of the world". And that makes all the difference.

The reason is that we have a fall back position - an alternative home. We can't be tossed out homeless from society, because we have the edifice of the Path, with its sangha. We follow the dictates of Spirit, or God, or whatever other word people use, and are only 'passing through' the social, environmental and economic world.

This question, of how much participation people of the path should take 'in the world' has been agonised over by all traditions. Christian monks, Taoist recluses, Buddhism, Toltec, you name it - any tradition which values personal enlightenment or spiritual freedom as primary, has had difficulty in finding an answer to this issue.

The first rule, is if you are destined to participate, then it's your personal road, and off you go - no one ever complains on that basis.

The second rule, is that almost all 'path' traditions have at some time been slaughtered by the general public, whipped up by the politics of the day. So they had to acknowledge if they were to be allowed the personal space and freedom to do their practices, they had to keep an eye out for societal insanity.

However Toltecs came up with two remarkable tenants - controlled folly, and stalking. What these mean, is that by participating in the 'folly' of the world around us, we will find tools of immeasurable value for our own inner journey.

Controlled Folly does not mean we see the world as folly so much, as that we act in the folly of the world as if it wasn't folly. Stalking was a brilliant realisation, that although we are peerless sages in our own little cave, as soon as we step into the world of our fellow humans, we immediately lose all our precious composure, and before we know it, we are frothing at the mouth like everyone else.

Thus the practice is to participate in the ups and downs, the excitement and depressions of the social world we live within, knowing it is madness - not in its own terms mind you, reference my previous section for the general public, but in our terms, seeing from our structure of priorities, from our realisations about the nature of life and death, and our opportunities within that.

By such practice, a doorway appears, which we can mine with wondrous profit for our ultimate purpose. So long as we don't forget to keep hold of the sacrificial bowl and spoon as the I Ching says - so long as we don't forget who we are and where we are going, and become lost in the 'mind of the world'.

So long as we remain in the world and not off the world.

One of the first gifts on offer, is awareness. Most people are uninformed of the forces and processes of the world they live in. Awareness has many facets, but one important one is the simple awareness of the world we inhabit. In all it's physical and abstracted extensions.

One reason I specifically included topics of political, environmental and economic issues in the Board of 'Action', is because most uninformed people on the path are uninformed not by choice, but by laziness.

But the real reason I included this area of Action, is because I have a deeper agenda. I can't launch into this now, but I have a strategy beyond my own spiritual road - I have a strategy for the sangha. And that strategy calls for the application of adventures into worlds of action - for everyone occasionally, but for some as their primary field of activity - the field through which their personal spiritual path passes. Politics is only one of unlimited fields of action.

This is about my position in the Red Root Race - 'reds' are almost always at the forefront of action fields, as their potency of individuality (red) naturally throws them into the height of every battle. Underneath this lies a doorway to freedom, if it can only be grasped. Enough of that.

So, for people of the path, the first question, is are you not voting out of laziness, of laziness towards awareness of the world? Or out of an evolution in understanding your own path of awareness in the world?

There is no point in fooling yourself, or fooling us - you have to decide, are you stepping up to your tasks of awareness, or sitting back, pretending with your mind that you are holy, instead of just apathetic.

Remember, there is no place on this path for those without passion.

Offline Jennifer-

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2008, 12:23:57 AM »
Quote
So, for people of the path, the first question, is are you not voting out of laziness, of laziness towards awareness of the world? Or out of an evolution in understanding your own path of awareness in the world?

There is no point in fooling yourself, or fooling us - you have to decide, are you stepping up to your tasks of awareness, or sitting back, pretending with your mind that you are holy, instead of just apathetic.

Remember, there is no place on this path for those without passion.

I havnt voted in years.. infact I cant recall ever voting yet I must of taken an interest in a town election at some point because Ive gone and registered.

Its been said to me before.. How can you not vote when you express such deep concern for the world around you?

All I could say is this.. and I still find this true for me and yet as always Im willing to embrace change.

I dont need to vote to influence its outcome.




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Offline Angela

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2008, 02:54:06 AM »

However Toltecs came up with two remarkable tenants - controlled folly, and stalking. What these mean, is that by participating in the 'folly' of the world around us, we will find tools of immeasurable value for our own inner journey.

Controlled Folly does not mean we see the world as folly so much, as that we act in the folly of the world as if it wasn't folly. Stalking was a brilliant realisation, that although we are peerless sages in our own little cave, as soon as we step into the world of our fellow humans, we immediately lose all our precious composure, and before we know it, we are frothing at the mouth like everyone else.

Thus the practice is to participate in the ups and downs, the excitement and depressions of the social world we live within, knowing it is madness - not in its own terms mind you, reference my previous section for the general public, but in our terms, seeing from our structure of priorities, from our realisations about the nature of life and death, and our opportunities within that.

By such practice, a doorway appears, which we can mine with wondrous profit for our ultimate purpose. So long as we don't forget to keep hold of the sacrificial bowl and spoon as the I Ching says - so long as we don't forget who we are and where we are going, and become lost in the 'mind of the world'.

So long as we remain in the world and not off the world.


I sense these opportunities.  For the first time in many years, I see a glimmer of hope.  My opportunity is to influence wherever I'm able.  The only way to do that, is to be informed, Aware of what's going on in the world around me and participate...not as the "concerned citizen", but as the extremely concerned Warrior. 

It's Do or Die time...I've chosen to Do where passion, spirit, whatever you want to call that core of Knowing, is pushing me.  Does Everyone belong there?  No...and that's what makes this Path so lonely and oh so very personal. 

I don't expect everyone, or anyone for that matter, to join me.  It's not my business who votes and who doesn't...it's a very personal decision.  I love you all just as you are  :-*  I'm not here to debate or judge.

If allowed, I will continue to share my excitement and passion for this cause.  Because to me, there is much on the line...not only the future of our Mother Earth, but also the future of our sons and daughters, who we are presently grooming for their own Paths.

Ang  :)
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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2008, 04:01:43 AM »
Ok...so Obama won South Carolina, but Hilliary is ahead nationwide.  I would love to see one or the other elected president, of course...but it would also be very cool to have them both in the White House...one as president and the other vice-president. (I wonder if they have discussed this? ;)

Exactly my thought, who will be president of them two and who would be vice president. I read an interview with Obamas grandmother, she lives in Kenya, another place of disaster. But she liked her grandson, she was proud of him for what he had done when he visited her some year ago.

Now Hillary, she has some problem with being married to Clinton. I do not think Bill Clinton was such a bad president and he can surely brief her wife about those "know how" details if she come to the white house (no jokes here please  ;D ). Neverthelees I kind of feel that many Americans just will not buy Bill for another election period even if it is only from the breakfast table, just as Ted Kennedy wont support them.

But boy, if Obama wins the Super Tuesday, do "they" kill him then?

Offline Zamurito

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2008, 04:19:12 AM »

But boy, if Obama wins the Super Tuesday, do "they" kill him then?

My thoughts exactly, as I voiced them to Ang last night.
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Offline Angela

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2008, 04:28:45 AM »
Now Hillary, she has some problem with being married to Clinton. I do not think Bill Clinton was such a bad president and he can surely brief her wife about those "know how" details if she come to the white house (no jokes here please  ;D ). Neverthelees I kind of feel that many Americans just will not buy Bill for another election period even if it is only from the breakfast table, just as Ted Kennedy wont support them.

Hillary and Bill worked together when he was in office.  She is a very shrewd strategizer.  IMO, Bill is her "balance" right now, until she chooses a running mate.

I know Ted Kennedy supports Obama, but I heard three others in the Kennedy clan support Hillary, one being  Robert F. Kennedy Jr.  This has been less publicized...not sure why.

KENNEDY: I’M FOR HILLARY
 


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Offline Angela

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2008, 04:44:32 AM »
Quote from: Jahn on Today at 09:01:43 AM

But boy, if Obama wins the Super Tuesday, do "they" kill him then?


My thoughts exactly, as I voiced them to Ang last night.

Obama has more Secret Service men protecting him than any of the other candidates.  If anything happens to him, I think there would be a huge civil uprising.  I think it would behoove "them" to keep him safe.
"If you stop seeing the world in terms of what you like and dislike, and saw things for what they truly are, in themselves, you would have a great deal more peace in your life..."

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Re: US Elections 2008
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2008, 05:31:09 AM »
The story-teller in me can see a conspiracy-story in the making: the republican party throws all their weight into seeing Hillary and/or Obama or both getting the ticket, because they know that formerly-apathetic people will roust themselves out to vote republican -- anything but see a woman or a black man take office!

</intuitive cynicism>

« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 05:57:22 AM by nichi »

 

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