Topic: Osho

[Taimi]

http://www.otoons.com/osho/askosho_enlightenment.htm

I like this man very much
And i like the way he talks, such a cute accent Too bad he's not in this world anymore, he seems so alive though... and everything i have read or listened about him so far, sounds so true.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=osho

[Shamaya]

Nice find Rubina
I'm looking forward to reading.

Many Thanks
Fade

[niamhspark]

He was very revolutionary in meditation. Before he became an 'organization' and got in with bad people, he was a much better man. I have a theory they drugged him up and used his name for profitting purposes. Here's a little of his history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

[Taimi]

Did you see the comment above that article - the neutrality of this article is disputed 

Anyways, i don't care much about what other people write about, only what he himself says.

[niamhspark]

Did you see the comment above that article - the neutrality of this article is disputed 

Of course, but the controversy over the salad bar poisoning in Oregon is a fact. But the fact of the matter is his spokeswoman was the real downfall of the Osho org. They kept him drugged up, because he'd been ill and took advantage of him

Anyways, i don't care much about what other people write about, only what he himself says.

Best way to go, or read his earlier works he wrote.

[niamhspark]

All by Osho:

" Knowledge is not information, it's transformation."

"Doubt helps your intelligence, sharpens it. Questioning makes you aware of many possibilities of which you may not have been aware before."

"We all cling to the past, and because we cling to the past we become unavailable to the present."

" I am neither for this nor for that. I would like you to become so capable that you can remain in the marketplace and yet meditative. I would like you to relate with people, to love, to move in millions of relationships -- because they enrich -- and yet remain capable of closing your doors and sometimes having a holiday from all relationship... so that you can relate with your own being also. "

" My vision of a real humanity is of pure individuals relating to each other, but not tied in any relationship. They will be loving to each other, but not being possessive of each other. They will be sharing with each other all their joys and all their blessings, but never even in their dreams thinking of dominating, thinking of enslaving the other person. My vision of a real humanity is of a world consisting not of families, not of nations, not of races, but only of individuals. "

" I am not a philosopher who is trying to make a system of thought. I am a mystic who is trying to convey the mysteries that have become available to me. I will confuse you. "

" I am saying something about the ineffable. I am saying something about the ultimate mystery. You can understand it, yet you can never understand it totally. It is elusive, it escapes. It is within reach, but it is not within grasp. You are always coming closer and closer to it, but you never arrive. And the day you arrive, then you are no more there; the distinction between the seeker and the sought disappears. Then you are it. That art thou -- then you are it! "

" I would like people to live at ease, with all that is available on the outside. Don't be in a hurry, because anything left unlived will pull you back again. Finish it. And then there is no need to escape from your house or from your bank account, because they are no longer a burden on you. Perhaps they have a certain utility, but nothing is wrong with them. Even a Gautam Buddha needs food, but somebody else earns it. He needs clothes, and somebody else earns them for him. You earn your own food. It is better to earn your own clothes, your own shelter. "

"My message of love is absolutely simple; nothing can be more simple than that.

But your mind is very complex, very tricky. It makes simple things complicated. -- that's its work. And for centuries it has been trained for only one thing: to make things so complicated that your life becomes impossible.

Your mind has become expert in destroying you, because your life consists of simple things. The whole existence is simple, but man's mind has been cultivated, conditioned, educated, programmed in such a way that the simplest thing becomes crooked. The moment it reaches to your mind it is no longer simple. The mind starts interpreting it, finding things in it which are not there, ignoring things which are there."

"Doubt helps your intelligence, sharpens it. Questioning makes you aware of many possibilities of which you may not have been aware before.

But this is only the beginning of the journey. At the end, when all your questions have disappeared...and the real master never gives you the answer. Let me repeat it: the real master never gives you the answer, so you cannot doubt it. He brings you to a point where all your questions disappear. His answers are murderous, killing your questions, destroying them mercilessly, to bring you to a point where there is no question in your consciousness.

The master does not give you any answer that you can doubt. This non-questioning consciousness is the answer. And it is your experience; you cannot doubt it, it is there.

From this point, silence and intelligence are just two aspects of the same thing. From this point, not knowing, innocence and knowing are two aspects of the same thing. This is the mysterious world which is available to you if you can pass the jungle of questions and doubts and reach into the clear, where there are no questions and doubts, and no answers either. Just you are in utter silence, with immense clarity, with tremendous sharpness.

That's why I am against belief, because it will never allow you to reach to this stage. It will stop you in the very beginning of the journey. It will not help to make you more intelligent; it will make you more unintelligent. It will make you more fanatic, superstitious, but it will not allow you to come into the clarity which can be called the very goal of what transpires between master and disciple: the moment of total silence, the moment where everything is crystal clear."

[Nick]

"From this point, silence and intelligence are just two aspects of the same thing. From this point, not knowing, innocence and knowing are two aspects of the same thing. This is the mysterious world which is available to you if you can pass the jungle of questions and doubts and reach into the clear, where there are no questions and doubts, and no answers either. Just you are in utter silence, with immense clarity, with tremendous sharpness.

That's why I am against belief, because it will never allow you to reach to this stage. It will stop you in the very beginning of the journey. It will not help to make you more intelligent; it will make you more unintelligent. It will make you more fanatic, superstitious, but it will not allow you to come into the clarity which can be called the very goal of what transpires between master and disciple: the moment of total silence, the moment where everything is crystal clear."

the method of the final solitude

don't know much about Osho but I like what I hear. What he describes is very much like a key part of my own path.

something else I am doing right now that relates to Osho is to ponder how humankind always kills and tortures their saint, in doing so I stregthen my own certitude in the path, and can weed these traits from myself. plus I just find it facinating that my fellow humans are so keen to snub out every oppurunity that spirit offers them. cheers to Osho and all the great masters (M included )!

[niamhspark]

Yes, Osho was a great master. He was just very physically ill. The Dalai Lama himself said he was an enlightened being. And other enlightened beings who say another is, typically dont make mistakes. There's great controversies over this, if someone is enlightened, how could they 'fall' from enlightenment? For when the Dalai Lama went to the compound to visit Osho, he never went back. But you have to keep in mind, if the physical body is breaking down, then the users and abusers manipulate the "face" of the org, and use people behind it, you can't really blame him. He was still, to myself, enlightened. I'm thinking too, its very possible with all his meditation research, he may have took things too far with his work on tantra. Cause you can go too far in meditation, what some don't understand. He pushed himself extremely hard. It may have contributed to some of his illnesses.

So to me, esp in his early work, it doesn't discount the message he gave. There's a good story I saw of him he wrote, when he became enlightened, experienced the Dark Night of the Soul. When I get home from work I'll go see if I can find it.

[Taimi]

Few days ago, when i read some material about him, i thought about him before falling asleep. don't remember the dreams, but i the thought was there all night and in the dream i had some very good feeling, like everything is all right.

I'm a bit amazed how some person's text in the internet, with whom i don't have personal contact, who even doesn't live here anymore, can have such influence. I've never been much interested of these eastern teachers or any famous teachers at all.

[tommy2]

Osho says, "Everything be O.K."

Just kidding.  The WJ is just peachy keen after her surgery today.  The attending nurse said that the lady surgeon remarked that she thought she felt an unusual energy about her just before the operation  ..... no kidding, not on THIS one.

We know what THAT was, right?

Thanks for the vibes, Yawl. 

t2f

[Michael]

I was very fond of Rajneesh in his earlier days, and my earlier days, but after having a dreaming psychic battle with him one night, i decided to give him a swerve. So i have never followed him into Osho, and thus don't use that name in reference to him.

His earlier books are fantastic - there is a lot of deep insight and inspiration in them and I can recommend them. Once he got into jokes, his speeches went down hill. His early books cover a huge range of practices from all traditions - he was a professor of philosophy after all.

He lost the plot in US, though largely due to Shelia, still I don't agree with Niamh that it was all her fault. He simply got sidetracked with the good life, and watching american movies constantly - very Indian. He even admitted his downfall rather honestly and pathetically to Shiva his bodyguard, who subsequently wrote an interesting book about his experiences.

I do have serious disagreements with him on two main issues.

First I agree with Krishnamurti that Rajneesh went too far into using his personality to attract devotion as a teaching tool - this was a big argument between them, and you could also argue that Krishnamurti went too far in the opposite direction. It can be very obstructional to set oneself up as the 'saviour', where you say to people, come to me and all will be well for you. A true teacher keeps students at a distance, so that they retain their independence, which is a precious thing. The pull of a spiritual teacher is enormous, and such a person has to take responsibility for the consequence of that upon those younger on the path.

Yet at the same time, love for a higher evolved being is one of the most powerful and least bad karmic creating paths to growth. There are about 4 well recognised paths to consciousness, and this is the most highly praised. So a teacher is playing with dynamite, and should work very carefully with the use of 'growth' cords.

Secondly I see his teachings on sex as just plain wrong. So much Indian repression in those teachings, and the result was and still is a misdirection. He was trying to free up people's sexuality, to release the energy blocked in that chakra. With that I have no problem. But with the advocacy of having sex with everyone as a spiritual practice is not only wrong, but is actually dangerous.

You can't just toss aside thousands of years of advice from all schools, as Carl Jung has said about this issue. The problem that has always been referenced by sexual containment as an essential practice in a whole spiritual journey, is due to its over addictiveness. On one hand, sexual repression makes kundalini difficult to get off the ground, but if one indulges in sex as the kundalini begins to rise, then that gets fixated into the energy process. This leads to the use of spiritual attainments being diverted into the sexual channel, and it becomes very difficult to stop this, which has bad consequences for post life.

You should always remember that anyone who develops their spiritual power has to be utterly careful with how they manage that, because they are biting into permanency, so unlike the ordinary person whose cycle is short, an advanced person can very easily become trapped into the negative karma, or simple karmic consequences of indulgence, for a very very long time before they recycle.

This is also true of Alister Crowley. No disputing he had knowledge, but his utilisation of that created in him an energy that is dangerous for anyone treading this path. especially if you want to have anything to do with me. I agree with Gurdjieff on Crowley - when they met, Gurdjieff just said nothing till he went away, and he sent the kids away from him also.

I have recently stayed in Pune, Osho's headquarters in India, and stayed with some of his followers (strangely I also did that thirty years ago - funny how things come around). There we felt that same vibe that turned me off this man long ago - it is hard to explain. They have a fantastic place, which is also very beautiful - there is so much I am attracted to by the movement - and it is the largest centre on the planet for everything spiritual that you want to learn. That part about Rajneesh I really liked - he was into everything. You have to have an aids test before you can get inside the place.

But his early books, they are very good stuff.

[Nick]

There's great controversies over this, if someone is enlightened, how could they 'fall' from enlightenment?

solidity. permenant crystalization of centeredness.
I could argue that I was enlightened as a child, the things I experienced where amazing, but what holds it all together? Even angels fall from grace.
In Vairagya (dispassion) practice they teach all about how nothing lasts, but the theory is that we can develop within ourselves something that does last. Then when you have that permenant center of gravity you can live forever....or really really long  . Until you develop that lasting center achievement on the path will not last.
The development of True Will (as apposed to will-power), the development of self-presence, and that you never fall asleep (don't mean physical sleep) are some of the key tools as I understand it. 

then the theory further goes that there are levels of enlightenment...about 7 levels from one view point. each level up on the ladder is a little bit more solid. until man number 7 and then sapposedly the Laws don't apply to you any more cause you are now a Law unto Yourself....
but hey I don't know what I'm sayin

[Nick]

This is also true of Alister Crowley. No disputing he had knowledge, but his utilisation of that created in him an energy that is dangerous for anyone treading this path. especially if you want to have anything to do with me. I agree with Gurdjieff on Crowley - when they met, Gurdjieff just said nothing till he went away, and he sent the kids away from him also.

I was always amazed by Crowleys massive knowledge, but could never get myself to focus on it for very long. I just always felt there was something wrong there...never did stay long enough to figure out what, except he obviously indulged his bung hole off, and claimed contact with lower vibrational spirits, or badies as I call um.

I was also always amazed by how much knowledge L.Ron. Hubbard had, not much beyond mental work though and the interest in OBE and astral projection. Still I steal a bit or two from time to time from the visualization techniques of there higher grades.

could you elaborate on the dangers of which you speak?

[nichi]

could you elaborate on the dangers of which you speak?

Oh Ian, he had absolutely no regard for the ones he took under his tutelage -- if anything, he used them mercilessly, at any cost, and landed a couple of them in the mental institution.

He wanted a conversation with his "Holy Guardian Angel", and as such indeed attracted the lower astral entities, to which he fell prey, as many of the ceremonial magicians do: they believe they can "control" the whole thing.  The ego and hubris and arrogance can become enormous in that work. Long story short, he was corrupt as hell, and it gladdens my heart that Gurdjieff sent the children away.

[Nick]

Oh Ian, he had absolutely no regard for the ones he took under his tutelage -- if anything, he used them mercilessly, at any cost, and landed a couple of them in the mental institution.

He wanted a conversation with his "Holy Guardian Angel", and as such indeed attracted the lower astral entities, to which he fell prey, as many of the ceremonial magicains do: they believe they can "control" the whole thing.  The ego and hubris and arrogance can become enormous in that work. Long story short, he was corrupt as hell, and it gladdens my heart that Gurdjieff sent the children away.

don't know the Gudjieff story though I have heard it referenced many times. I do know of the story where Crowley comes to Gurdjieff for help with his drug addiction. and while Crowley is getting help, G. treats him with hospitality, but then when Crowley desides to leave G. reportedly says: "Mister, you go?" Gurdjieff inquired.
"You have been guest?"
"Now you go, you are no longer guest?"
Crowley - no doubt wondering whether his host had lost his grip on reality and was wandering in a semantic wilderness - humored his mood by indicating that he was on his way back to Paris.
But Gurdjieff, having made the point that he was not violating the canons of hospitality, changed on the instant into the embodiment of righteous anger. "You filthy," he stormed, "you dirty inside! Never again you set foot in my house!" . . . Whitefaced and shaking, the Great Beast crept back to Paris with his tail between his legs.



can you tell the story of the children being sent away? in the mood for stories