Topic: Gurdjieff's wife's enlightenment

[Firestarter]

I happened to stumble upon this, it was an interview with Osho. Its on Gurdjieff's wife and when she was dying.

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 Gurdjieff's Wife Enlightenment

 

Question: Beloved Osho, Gurdjieff was accused of trying to keep his wife alive while she was dying. His disciples seem shocked and didn’t understand. In what way was he trying to help her that he was unable to do before she Was dying?

Osho: The 1917 revolution in Russia disturbed Gurdjieff’s whole work. His disciples got scattered. He himself had to escape out of Russia because the communists, who were coming into power, were materialists: they did not believe in any spiritual growth. They conceived of man just as a vegetable. But Gurdjieff managed to take with him a small group of disciples who had developed and crystallized very much. His wife happened to be one of them.

They remained in Constantinople waiting for some opportunity to settle somewhere. It was in Constantinople that they were found by Bennett and brought to Europe. First he wanted to settle in England, but it seems no country – because of its politicians’ mediocre minds – wants any giant to settle there. They cannot accept anybody who knows more, who is more; and Gurdjieff was a very strong, powerful, charismatic man – whoever came into contact with him was changed. England refused. Country after country refused him.


It was just by chance that the prime minister of France had read a few of his books and was immensely impressed. He invited him, and gave him a beautiful place near Paris, a few miles away, where he established his commune. In that commune there were two sections. One was the old-guard Russians who had come with him, who were far more developed than the new followers from the West – particularly from America. The difficulty was double.

First, the Russian group knew only Russian, so communication was impossible. Second, they were highly developed, and these new people were highly educated but spiritually not developed at all. Those Russians were not very educated. So there was another barrier of communication – intellectually they could not communicate, language prevented it, education prevented it, and on the plane of being also, communication was difficult because the Russian group was far more developed – Gurdjieff had been working for years with them.


The oldest disciple was his own wife. And it became troublesome to people, particularly the new group: ”Why should Gurdjieff be so interested in his own wife?” It was not a question of being his wife; that was irrelevant. The question was that he had worked on the woman the most, and she was dying. And it was only a question of a few days – if he could manage to keep her alive her crystallization will happen. Otherwise one knows not into how many circles of birth and death she would have to move.


And he was capable of keeping her alive, because in his system, transfer of energy is one of the basic methods. It can be used to the extreme – that the dying person can live as much as the person who is transmitting his energy to him; if he transmits his whole energy he will die immediately, and the dying person can live long. Gurdjieff was not trying to sacrifice anybody, but everybody could contribute a little bit of energy to his wife. And it was only a question of a few more days of good health, so she can continue the work.

 

She had almost reached, just a step more and she would not be coming back. But the Western group could not understand why he was so interested: a man who is enlightened should look equally towards everybody – whether one is his wife or not. But they were ignorant of the fact that he was not looking after his wife, he was looking after a human being who happened to be his wife, but who was in such a position that just a few days’ health would release her forever from every imprisonment. It was worth doing.

 

And he managed it – his wife died enlightened. This is possible in a school. If we see that somebody has developed so much that there is no harm if everybody else contributes a little energy... so that the person can continue more in the body and come to fulfillment. Alone it is not possible: it is not the way of the monk, it is the way of a mystery school. And Gurdjieff himself had learned all his techniques, all his experiences, in Sufi schools. He was never a monk; that’s why no religious recognition has been given to him.

 

And Sufi schools keep their techniques very secret.  Gurdjieff was the first to bring them to light in the Western world. Sufis were not happy, and the Western world was shocked because they were used to thinking of religion in a totally different way: ”What he is talking about does not seem to be religion. He’s talking almost as if it is a science” – and he was right, it is a science. Just because of religious persecution, many mystery schools have kept themselves underground and have worked without anybody’s knowledge.

 

Even if the husband is part of a mystery school, his wife does not know about it – because the church, the orthodox religion, will immediately start persecuting him. So it is better to keep silent, and do what you want to do in a secret way.  Gurdjieff’s intention was to make all those secrets available to a wider number of people – in which he failed, not because of himself but because of the masses. They are deaf; they cannot listen to anything that is so new and goes against their well-trodden path.


Of this caring for the wife, trying to keep her alive, the ordinary mediocre mind will think, ”This is attachment. He’s too much attached to his wife. And a man who is so much attached to his wife cannot be enlightened.” These are the mediocre minds’ logical standpoints; and other mediocre minds will agree perfectly all over the world. The wife has to be renounced! – but here it is something else. He’s trying to keep her in the body, not letting her die.

[Firestarter]

I found this other quote by Osho on Gurdjieff. I think he mentioned him in his book, The Book of Secrets too, if I recall. I own it, but the book is too big to dig through it right now if he did, lol

"Gurdjieff certainly is a pioneer. With Gurdjieff begins a totally new concept of spiritual life. He actually called his way "the fourth way" -- just as I call my way "the fourth way". He was immensely misunderstood, because he was not interested in imparting knowledge to you, he was not interested in consoling you. He was not interested in giving you beautiful theories, visions, hallucinations. He was not interested in your tears, in your emotions and sentiments. He was not interested in being worshipped by you, he was interested in transforming you.

And to transform a person means you have to take a hammer in your hands, because many chunks of that person's being have to be cut. The person is so topsy-turvy that everything is wrong as it is, and it has to be put right. And he has invested so much in his wrong way of life that he becomes afraid and scared of anybody who wants to change his style of life -- and not only the circumference, but the center too. Only a few courageous people can enter into the world of a man like Gurdjieff. Tremendous courage is needed, a courage to die, because only then one is reborn. " ~Osho

[Michael]

Osho is wrong about Americans, as they were noticeably absent from the Institute, esp in the early days - there is a very curious story about Gurdjieff's relationship with the Americans - he eventually came to appreciate them more than the Europeans.

He had a big thing about nationalities. He said the Asians and Russians were turkeys - half way between peacocks and crows. He never could understand the Europeans. The French didn't like him because he stipulated extremely hard work. The English took to the hard work, but Gurdjieff thought that was a sign of their interest in the 'work', whereas it was their protestant ethic, their belief that anything worthwhile had to be paid for with great effort. Gurdjieff never really liked the English, but I think that had more to do with his memories of their involvement in Georgia and in the Great Game in which he played a part.

Osho is right about the difference between the Westerners and the Russians, except there was another group as well - his extended family, who didn't get involved in the 'work' at all.

This stuff about his wife. This was a huge controversy, and it was not only the Westerners who were upset by the way Gurdjieff kept his wife alive while in great pain. Gurdjieff wrote about it in his book B's Tales to his Grandson. I take the same view as Osho, except Gurdjieff was never into 'enlightenment'. That is one of Osho's own tricks to hook people.

Osho is definitely right in that last snip - his methods were sledge-hammer, and very few could keep up to his demands.

Another point he made is also interesting. Gurdjieff very much upset the Sufi schools and other spiritual groups he learnt from, because he did what the Native Americans are upset about in that Sweat Lodge affair - he took their techniques out of the context of their religion and culture, and brought them to the world in his own context. He cared nothing for old cultural groups who sought to 'own' these techniques. He ranged like a predator across all spiritual schools he could find, current and ancient, and choose from them the methods that he found worked. Then put them together in his own comprehensive understanding. I do the same.

[Firestarter]

Okay, some of what you said is very interesting. You said,

This stuff about his wife. This was a huge controversy, and it was not only the Westerners who were upset by the way Gurdjieff kept his wife alive while in great pain. Gurdjieff wrote about it in his book B's Tales to his Grandson. I take the same view as Osho, except Gurdjieff was never into 'enlightenment'. That is one of Osho's own tricks to hook people.

But wait, why then did he keep his wife alive then when she was in pain? Why this energy transference (and I bet this is accurate in what Osho said). This could be simply the prana transfer. He did say he did this, so she wouldnt have to be reborn over and over. Wouldnt that be accurate then? He worked with her very hard, he said. So could it be it would've been all for naught if she had died, before all was 'finished?' Ok, so then here I say, if not enlightenment, then 'what' did he keep her alive for?

Another point he made is also interesting. Gurdjieff very much upset the Sufi schools and other spiritual groups he learnt from, because he did what the Native Americans are upset about in that Sweat Lodge affair - he took their techniques out of the context of their religion and culture, and brought them to the world in his own context. He cared nothing for old cultural groups who sought to 'own' these techniques. He ranged like a predator across all spiritual schools he could find, current and ancient, and choose from them the methods that he found worked. Then put them together in his own comprehensive understanding. I do the same.

Well this gives the great debate on the matter of the 'secret schools' and trust. He somehow got trusted with knowledge and betrayed by making this knowlege mainstream. Hes not the only man to have ever done it. Many before him did. But I wonder, was this a good idea to do? Only because I suppose I respect secret 'reasons' for traditions, as you said, so not abused, like the sweat lodge incident. This is a matter of trust, a respect of the sacred. I could see some sufis fuming.

Of course if he had been appointed in a position to be a teacher, passed the mantle, told to open the door for the secret teachings on sufism, maybe would be different.

But then again, how much of Gurdjieff's teachings say, were authentic sufism, mixed with other things, or his own? I mean, eventually it became his own 'work,' his own teachings, but how could the sufism not be diluted by this happening? I wonder on this too.

Another thing, sufism does teach an enlightenment, different from Buddhism but they do teach that it exists. Or say, there is a means to an end. Somewhere, even though an endless (seemingly) road, there is still a means to an end.

[Michael]

re his wife: you would need to be aware of just how significant the use of pain was for Gurdjieff. What he was doing with his wife as he spent endless hours with her at the end, no one knows. But it can be assumed that he did see an opportunity to shift her being a long way forward by his efforts. It is not a case of achieving some threshold, but of pursuing an endless progression - the further along one can get in any life, year or day, is of utmost criticality.

We know from his book, that he did feel extremely guilty that he had been too busy to realise how sick she was, because he maintained he knew the cure, if only he had acted sooner. Very little is known about how his wife was situated in the 'work'.

Gurdjieff had little time for those who saw the cultural framework of any religion as more important than the inner workings. His interest was transformation, and his task was for the species as a whole. He did not adopt this task without gaining approval from his own teacher. He implied that he had been successful in finding the Sarman Brotherhood - the ancient school that predates all others.

[Firestarter]

re his wife: you would need to be aware of just how significant the use of pain was for Gurdjieff. What he was doing with his wife as he spent endless hours with her at the end, no one knows. But it can be assumed that he did see an opportunity to shift her being a long way forward by his efforts. It is not a case of achieving some threshold, but of pursuing an endless progression - the further along one can get in any life, year or day, is of utmost criticality.

We know from his book, that he did feel extremely guilty that he had been too busy to realise how sick she was, because he maintained he knew the cure, if only he had acted sooner. Very little is known about how his wife was situated in the 'work'.

Gurdjieff had little time for those who saw the cultural framework of any religion as more important than the inner workings. His interest was transformation, and his task was for the species as a whole. He did not adopt this task without gaining approval from his own teacher. He implied that he had been successful in finding the Sarman Brotherhood - the ancient school that predates all others.

Well he might have gotten approval from his teacher, but did the teacher get approval from other sufis who felt uncomfortable with their secrets coming forth? I bet my bottom dollar he did not.

Those things are passed down and typically unwritten, various things like that. Unless asked by someone. But other sufis schools might not have been keen, which is what I believe Osho meant when he said that. But Osho didnt care any more than Gurdjieff did, probably, im assuming her hate to say it but I am. Both seem more like there was something more important than keeping things secret if they could benefit a wider reach of folks. But you know how it goes, only so many can actually 'do' what is asked for such tasks. The failure rate is rather high when it comes to enlightenment, or transformation, or whateveryouwanttocallit. And it is not just because of one persons individual life in the present, but even past karmic ties (which I believe in), which can serve as obstacles to growth as well. Theres always some past shadow chasing us down, from past 'here' or past-past. And it takes a commitment that many do not have. I think in the olden days, people had more of a commitment to such things. But the more man has become modern man and has his own false idols that he worships in lieu of spirituality, he falls prey to his own folly. So the 'hammer' comes down and he is far from prepared, and lacks the stamina for it. And im not talking stupid things like sweat lodges (lets be real no reason for danger), but even commitment to meditation, commitment to even say yoga, whatever it may be. I was in class tonight and one lady asked a friend if shed like to do a five minute meditation with her and she said no. Some folks are so dense they dont wish to commit five minutes, to meditation! But they wish for all the gains from spirituality without the work. Even meditating 15 minutes a day is something, and if done well, means more than an hour spent in a shitty distracted state of meditation.

[Jahn]

And he managed it – his wife died enlightened. This is possible in a school. If we see that somebody has developed so much that there is no harm if everybody else contributes a little energy... so that the person can continue more in the body and come to fulfillment. Alone it is not possible: it is not the way of the monk, it is the way of a mystery school.

 Good that you found this story.
 Nice that I belong to a Mystery School.


                 ~.~

[Jahn]

I do the same.

You do!? well that is kind of rock'n roll.
Am I surprised?

[Firestarter]

I found this from Osho on Gurdjieff, too:

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Beloved Osho,
In a book I read about Gurdjieff, it was said that two of his disciples, who had been with him for a long time and in a very intimate way - for example, de Hartmann, who played his music - suddenly left him.
Can you explain why this seems to happen again and again in the master-disciple relationship?

Osho: Turiya, the question is something of deep significance and with profound implications. It is something in the very nature of things that this kind of thing happens again and again, and will continue to happen again and again; it cannot be stopped.

De Hartmann lived with George Gurdjieff for perhaps the longest period of any of his other disciples, perhaps forty years or more. He was a great genius as far as music is concerned, and he was playing music for special meditations, which Gurdjieff had devised. The music was also devised by Gurdjieff; de Hartmann had to bring the device into reality.
Gurdjieff was a strange master, everything about him had the quality of strangeness. He himself was not a musician, but he understood what kind of vibrations could create certain states in man. His understanding was about man, his meditation, his mind, the possibility of his receiving certain vibrations and being affected by them.

He would explain his whole program to de Hartmann, and de Hartmann had become such an expert that he would make it a reality. But de Hartmann was not a disciple -- this was where the trouble arose. He had come to George Gurdjieff to be a disciple, but his genius about music took him on a different route: rather than being a disciple, he became an associate. He started working for Gurdjieff insofar as he needed music for his special dances, and he forgot completely why he had come. Gurdjieff reminded him many times: "de Hartmann, you are a perfect master as far as music is concerned, but you had not come here to play music. And now your ego is feeling so fulfilled and contented that you don't want to sit among the disciples. You have forgotten that your basic motive was not to play music here."

The separation was bound to happen one day, because finally Gurdjieff became very hard. And he said to de Hartmann, "You have to stop music completely, because music has become a barrier. Your music has helped others tremendously, but for yourself it has become a barrier. You stop music completely! Burn all your musical instruments." This was too much for de Hartmann. He was not an ordinary musician.

He left Gurdjieff rather than leave music.

And because he had lived for forty years with George Gurdjieff, and had remained in a very intimate relationship... but not as a disciple, remember -- that was forgotten; that was why the problem arose. The intimacy was because of the music; Gurdjieff needed a musician. He was taking his disciples around the world, showing people the immense effect of vibrations. In New York, in one of his shows, the disciples were dancing...
They have to dance intensely and totally; they have to forget the whole world. But if the music stops, then they have to stop in whatever position they are in -- if the hand is up, it remains up; if their eyes are open, they remain open, they don't blink -- a total stop. If one leg is up in dancing, it remains where it is.

And when the dance came to its climax, he gave the indication to de Hartmann to stop. As the music stopped, every dancer had to stop -- just like statues, as if suddenly they had become marble statues, no movement.

It is a tremendous experience. In that gap, when all movement has stopped, you simply feel your existence, your isness.

But when he said to de Hartmann to stop... the dancers were moving in a certain round and they were so close to the edge of the stage that with the sudden stop, one dancer fell from the stage. Because there was no way, you could not do anything -- whatever happened, happened, you had to stop. On top of him, another dancer fell. A whole line of dancers went on falling from the stage, as if they were dead bodies.

The people who had seen that show could not believe... the silence of the disciples, their becoming centered, created a new vibration. Even the people in the audience who had no idea of any meditation certainly felt a new breeze, a silence surrounding them, and a peacefulness.

For years, the intelligentsia of New York talked about the dance. They could not believe what had happened; it was simply sheer magic.

But nothing happened to de Hartmann. He was just a technician: he played the music -- he was an expert -- and when the indication was given he stopped it.

But he remained in close proximity to Gurdjieff for forty years, and people naturally thought that he was a disciple, and a very close disciple. And when he left Gurdjieff, he maintained the illusion -- perhaps he himself was in the illusion -- that he was a disciple, that he had learned everything that Gurdjieff knows... forty years is enough. That's why he went to America to open his own school.

A desire to become a master is a simple ego number.

His statement, Turiya, when he said to people, "You are more important to me than Mr. Gurdjieff," is simply shameful -- but this is the category of the Judas.

In every master's life there are bound to be Judases. It seems to be the law of nature that the people who come to a master don't come with the same motivation. A few come to seek the truth, a few come to learn how to be a master.

In the life of Basho, one of the great mystics of Japan, there is a beautiful incident.

He was sitting with his disciples and a man came and he said, "I also want to join."

Basho said, "There is no barrier; the doors are open, you can join. But let me tell you: disciplehood is an arduous thing. Are you ready for it, or is it just curiosity? If it is just curiosity then don't waste your time, because soon you will have to leave. If it is a sincere search that you are ready to stake everything -- life included -- only then can you be a disciple."
The man said, "I am not prepared. I never thought that to be a disciple costs so much." And then he said, "Then what about the master? -- I can become the master. If it is easier, then I can drop the idea of being a disciple; I can become the master."

Basho said, "We will not prevent you from being a master, but unless one has passed through the arduous path of disciplehood, one cannot be a master -- although it is very easy. If there was some back door, I would have allowed you in. But there is no back door; you will have to come through the right channel of being a disciple."

The man said, "Then I will think it over, and I will come again," and he never came again. A few people simply come to the masters because they see a certain dimension of fulfillment for their ego, their ambition. To them, it is the same: to have power, prestige, respectability, richness, or to be a great master with thousands of disciples. They have no desire to know the truth, no search for knowing oneself. To them, to be a master is just like any other ambitious project of the world -- to be a rich man, to be a politician, to be a prime minister, to be a governor. And you cannot prevent them, because sometimes when they come and they try to understand, they change. They see that when they came they had come with a wrong motive, but now that motive has been dropped. So they cannot be prevented from the very beginning... and one never knows when they will change; it may take years.

The master has to be patient. But these people are in a hurry, because life is slipping out of their hands.

Judas betrayed Jesus not for any other reason. It was not for thirty silver coins that he betrayed Jesus; he betrayed Jesus because he was the only educated disciple. He was more educated and cultured than Jesus himself. Moving with Jesus, seeing his teachings, he could easily visualize himself as a great master, greater than Jesus: "Because this man is simply a carpenter's son, knows nothing much; still he has created a great stir in the country."

It was a very simple arithmetic: Judas could see that if this man is removed, he can prove himself to be a great master; but if this man is alive he will always remain a disciple. Either he had to revolt against him and create a totally different following, which is more arduous... This was far better, if Jesus could be removed in some way. And Judas was bound to be the leader, with an established following. It is just like a shop with a credibility of hundreds of years -- rather than opening a new shop... You may be offering better things to the world, but still, the old name has a credibility, an established credibility. The competition is going to be tough and very difficult. The best way is somehow get the name of the old shop -- just old bottles filled with new wine. Nobody bothers about the wine, everybody looks at the bottle -- but the bottle has to be old. The old bottle is the proof of old wine. Simple logic...

And to remove Jesus was easy, because the Jews were after him and things could be done in such a way that nobody would ever know that Judas had done it.

But he forgot one thing: nobody would ever know that Judas had done it, but how can Judas forget it? That realization came only later on. That realization came only when Jesus was crucified. Judas was in the crowd. He could not believe that he had done this -- just to become a master, he had betrayed a friend, a master who loved him, trusted him. And now he forgot all about the old ego trip. Something new that he had never thought about, a great repentance, a guilt... within twenty-four hours he committed suicide. De Hartmann was not a disciple at all, but he knew certain techniques that Gurdjieff was practicing with disciples. He had become a technician. Because he had to supply the music to every technique, he knew the techniques in every detail -- but he had never practiced them; his work was to supply the music.

But this is how the mind deceives you. Your own mind leads you astray.
De Hartmann could not prove himself to be a master -- without Gurdjieff, the music fell flat. He knew the technique, he knew the music, but he was not aware that the technique, the music, all were alive because of the living presence of a master. He was only a technician.

That is the difference between a technician and a master.

Now if something goes wrong with the electricity any technician can come and fix it, but that does not mean that he is Edison who discovered electricity. Although he knows everything, he is not Edison. That master touch will be missing.

It took three years for Edison to discover electricity. He started with many colleagues and students -- he was a professor. And by and by, because every experiment went on failing, people started deserting him: "He seems to be mad, he is trying to do something impossible. Hundreds of experiments have failed, but that man seems to be strange... every day, early in the morning, he comes back to the lab with the same enthusiasm, the same zest." All his colleagues were feeling that it would be better to do something else -- "We are wasting our time." They were all frustrated. Except for Edison, nobody had any enthusiasm, and within three years all his colleagues and students had left.

But Edison continued, and one night at three o'clock... the whole night he had been working, because he was coming so close. And that was his logic -- he was saying to his colleagues, "Don't desert me; you are deserting at the wrong time. We have tried hundreds of experiments and they have all failed. That means that the one experiment which is going to succeed is coming closer. Finally we will sort it out. We are dropping those which are going to fail, they are not on our list anymore. The list is becoming shorter -- soon we will be able to find the right method."
They said, "Three years have been wasted, and we cannot imagine how long this `soon' is going to take."

And that night he started to feel from the very beginning of the evening that he was coming closer: "Things are fitting; the puzzle is to be settled tonight." He went on and on and on, and by three o'clock he saw the first electric bulb. It was so much light! No human eye had ever seen it before; people had seen only candles.

His wife was sleeping in the other room. She had been calling him again and again -- "It is time to go to sleep."

He said, "Not tonight; you just go to sleep and don't disturb me. I am so close, and I don't want to miss. Tomorrow things may be different, I may have forgotten something. Today I cannot leave it."

At three o'clock, suddenly the light... It was almost like lightning in the house.

The wife said, "You idiot, put that light out! Neither are you going to sleep nor will you allow me to sleep. And from where did you get this light?"
And he was sitting with unblinking eyes in a state of awe... unbelievable! It has happened!

And the poor woman was saying, "Turn the light off."

He said, "This light is never going to be turned off. Now it is going to be on forever and ever." Now every electrician knows -- but he is only a technician, he is not an Edison. He can fall into the illusion that he is also as knowledgeable as Edison himself, but the charisma is not there, the genius is not there. Those miracle-making hands are not there.

De Hartmann tried hard in America, because in America Gurdjieff had been such a success. He went through the same cities giving the same shows, but everything fell flat. He could not figure out what was wrong -- because the songs were the same, the dances were the same, the music was the same, the musician was the same... "And that man Gurdjieff was not doing anything, he was simply standing there. All that he used to do was to tell me, `Stop!' Just that much, anybody can do. And I myself know at what point he used to say stop, so I stop myself at those points, exactly at those points -- but the magic is not there."

He forgot that he had never been a disciple -- and he had become a master! He forgot that he had been only a musician. If he had remembered that he was only a musician -- and in that too, he was brought to such refinement by Gurdjieff, not by himself -- things would have been different.
Turiya, the same thing happened with Ouspensky, who was really a disciple.

De Hartmann can be simply cancelled; he was never a disciple.
But Ouspensky was a disciple, and one of the foremost disciples. But again, something took him away, and that something was similar to de Hartmann's music -- that was Ouspensky's intelligence. He was a world-famous mathematician, a great writer. Even before meeting Gurdjieff he was known all over the world. Nobody knew Gurdjieff.

In fact, it was Ouspensky who made Gurdjieff's name known to the world; the whole credit goes to Ouspensky. In this whole century there has not been another writer of the same caliber. He writes with such authority, with such beauty -- and that became his fall, because Gurdjieff became famous through his books.

Gurdjieff was not a writer; he had no special talent which is recognized by the world. He was purely a master. He could transform human beings, their consciousness, but that is not an art recognized by the world.

And when Ouspensky saw that he had made Gurdjieff world-famous, why should he bother? He knew everything about what Gurdjieff was teaching, he had written everything; through him the whole world knew about the teaching of Gurdjieff... "I myself can teach." He started a school in London. And such ungratefulness... he would not use Gurdjieff's full name; he would simply call him "G". Just to avoid the full name, Gurdjieff, he would use only the first letter, G.

And he made it clear to his students, that "Gurdjieff was right as long as I was with him. I left him because he started going wrong. So his teaching is valid till I left him -- beyond that, it has no significance."

But he was just a schoolteacher, a professor, with no aura of a master. It was really ridiculous to see him pretending to be a master, because even in teaching higher principles of consciousness he was using a blackboard. Just the old habit of being a mathematician... So he would write on the blackboard, as if the people who had gathered were students. He would not look into anybody's eyes. He was not an impressive personality. He would have been perfectly good as a professor in a university, but to be a master, to belong to the category of Gautam Buddha, Gurdjieff and Krishnamurti, is a totally different matter. He tried hard, but he could not manage anything; nothing happened.

And you will be surprised to know that the whole world condemned Gurdjieff, nobody condemned Ouspensky, nobody condemned de Hartmann. In fact, they had nothing worth condemning either. Gurdjieff had a teaching, a methodology to transform humanity.

But these persons wanted to be masters. Seeing the power of Gurdjieff, they became power hungry. Seeing his influence, they started feeling inferior; they wanted to move away and create their own sphere of influence. They all failed.

So it seems to be in the very nature of things that this will go on happening. Wherever there will be a master, there will be Judases, Ouspenskys, de Hartmanns.

With Mahavira there was Goshalak.

With each great teacher, these people have followed like shadows -- hungry for power.

But to be a master is not an ego game. The power of the master is not of the power of the ego; it is the power of his humbleness, it is the power of his nothingness.

So these people will continue to happen, but they don't make even a dent in human evolution. They simply spoil their own life and a great opportunity that was given to them.

[Michael]

Actually, the real story was not de Hartmann, but his wife. If you ever piece that together you will discover an extraordinary woman and relationship - her with her husband and with Gurdjieff. Even Gurdjieff could not break her - she was stronger even than him, but alas, he had something she desired above all else, and Gurdjieff's love for her went to his core. But it was not to be in that life.